Law question

[tefleming]

Being salaried doesn't mean you don't have to account for your time.

 

[lxskllr]

I can't believe there's people here arguing for the company.... If you tell someone that you'll give them $200 to help you put siding on your house for 8 hours, and they leave 4 minutes early, are you really going to make a big deal of it? If so, your a petty asshat.

I have a long memory. The job market might not be be good right now, but it'll be fine soon enough. I'd get the hell out of that company as soon as possible. Then that company will have the employees it deserves. A bunch of backstabbing enemies, that'll screw the company over, the same way they were screwed.

 

[aceO07]

If the coworker's performance was so good that he deserved a raise, then it's crappy that they used the excuse of 4 minutes. If it was really that good of a performance he should have argued it. Would be lame for the boss to keep saying '4 minutes late' to excuse every improvement.

 

[waffleironhead]

He should not be getting dinged for leaving early, he should get a raise. I mean it took all of you 4 minutes longer to get you work done, thus the rest of you are less efficient workers.

 

[waggy]

the boss is in the wrong. i would go talk to HR about it. but then i would also start looking for another job. its just going to get worse

 

[sao123]

unless it is in your contract, i dont think there is much that can be done about it.

 

[Deviant Grasshopper]

This is stupid. Just because your boss said he wouldn't doesn't mean you really have a legal leg to stand on - in my state, anyway. You realize that just because your boss tells you something doesn't mean he isn't allowed to change his mind, right?


Your 'friend' is an idiot. As a salaried employee my hours probably look bizarre - sometimes I may only be there 5-6 hours, but I always always make up for it.

 

[HardcoreRobot]

i would bitch about it, bc thats really shitty and i wouldnt mind finding a different one. just realize that even though you are in the right, you will still lose, and nothing good will come of it.

 

[spidey07]

Why do you think you have any legal recourse? Damn entitlement mentality is taking over. Going around boss's back to HR is a sure fire way to find a target permanently placed on your back.

OP - how old is said co-worker?

 

[fisheerman]

Originally posted by: silverpig
My philosophy towards salary is that you are paid to do a job, not to be at a certain place for x amount of hours per day. If the job is done, you go home; if the job requires more time, you stay. I have a salary position right now and there are some days where I come in for 5 hours and then leave. There are other days I work 9 hours straight with no breaks and then leave. There have also been times I've worked 32 hours straight. I have also had several days off in a row. So long as the job is being done and no one else is waiting on me, I'm good. Clocking out 4 minutes early seems like a petty nitpicking thing.

^^^^^-----this

 

[fisheerman]

Originally posted by: aceO07
If the coworker's performance was so good that he deserved a raise, then it's crappy that they used the excuse of 4 minutes. If it was really that good of a performance he should have argued it. Would be lame for the boss to keep saying '4 minutes late' to excuse every improvement.

The mere fact that they have installed a timeclock ought to clue you in that they (management) isn't trying to prove a case to other higher ups. They are documenting things that they need in order to justify letting someone (you?) go.

It is necessary in case of lawsuits.

Management has someone in mind for the chopping block. If I were you I would be clocking in 15 minutes early and staying 15 minutes late every single day.

good luck

-fish

 

[child of wonder]

Here's some clarification:

I'm not asking this so that my co-worker can SUE SUE SUE!!! What I'm asking is if he says "I want that off because you said it wouldn't be on reviews" and the boss refuses does he have the law on his side or not?

And here's an update:

My co-worker IM'ed the boss this morning and said he'd like to have that email attached to his review. The boss flipped out on him and came into his office and started yelling at him. Said that the co-worker knows he has an "hours issue" and that from now on any changes he makes to the network must be approved by him first.

Now, I know what you're thinking next -- "the co-worker must have done more than clock out a few mins early to warrant such a response." You'd be partially right. One of the oddities about my boss is that one day he'll be joking around with you and treat you like his best friend. The next day he'll be yelling and screaming at you for something insignificant. As someone else said about him "he's the kind of guy that likes to think he has the longest dick in the locker room."

Anyway, my co-worker is not perfect. He was promoted to be a network technician from help desk and expected to learn on the job. He has done so very well and, after a year, is close to getting his CCNA.

The "hours issue" the boss was referring to I can only imagine is because the co-worker has called in sick more than average, but not enough to warrant discipline. However, for every 4 minutes he clocks out early, there is an instance of him working over VPN at night, coming in to fix network issues after hours, or coming in early. So what the big "issue" is I'm not really sure.

I'm a server guy and can empathize. I spend 2-6 hours every week patching servers, doing work after hours, etc. on top of my 40 spent sitting in my desk. Most days I work through lunch as well. A typical week for me is 48-50 hours. I got talked to a few weeks ago because I occasionally leave a few minutes early. Didn't think anything of it until this came up.

I'm in agreement with others that as a salaried employee one is paid to do a job. IMO so long as one is available (near a cell phone and internet access) in case something happens and is present for meetings, it shouldn't matter how many hours a person works or where they do it from. I'm expected to work over 40 hours without batting an eye so why should working 38 be a big deal? Why doesn't the door swing both ways?

Anyway, I don't call the shots so I can accept it or leave. My co-worker has a meeting this afternoon with our boss and his boss. We'll see what happens.

 

[Baked]

Don't like it? Quit. Oh right you can't. The Man knows he got you by the balls.

 

[child of wonder]

Originally posted by: spidey07
Why do you think you have any legal recourse? Damn entitlement mentality is taking over. Going around boss's back to HR is a sure fire way to find a target permanently placed on your back.

OP - how old is said co-worker?

Co-worker is 36.

This isn't entitlement. This is just having the boss live up to his word.

It's simply the fact that the boss used the time clock to put a bad mark on the co-workers review -- which he implicitly said he would never do.

If our boss was smart he could simply reword the review and say "I have noticed Employee leave early and would like it to stop" instead of "time clock entries show Employee leaves early."

And I knew spidey would show up eventually and say "entitlement mentality." :beer:

 

[spidey07]

Read the update - your coworker is getting ready to be fired.

The trail and case are being made along with documentation.

 

[sdifox]

Sounds like a slime boss trying to look good to his boss. Your friend is done either way.


You guys have VPN logs no? Your friend can use that as defense.

 

[child of wonder]

Originally posted by: spidey07
Read the update - your coworker is getting ready to be fired.

The trail and case are being made along with documentation.

You could be right. We have a Sr. Network guy starting in 2 weeks. This could be something as simple as the boss thinking "I want Employee gone so I need a reason to make him look bad."

 

[SMOGZINN]

And another manager learns the importance of never putting anything in writing.

 

[James Bond]

Salary is something I'm still trying to get used to myself. I'm a network engineer and my average week is usually ~45-50hr.

After coming in 2-3min late a couple times last week (literally 2 or 3 minutes - no more), my boss absolutely blew up at me and one other employee. I took it like a bitch because I don't want to lose my job, but really, the whole time I'm thinking, "WTF? I work through lunch every day, stay at least 15min late every day, and you're pissed about me being 2 minutes late? Do you know how long it takes to make your fucking tea every day? You spend probably 20 minutes per day just making fucking tea. I can be booted into Windows faster than you make that tea.".

I should throw his tea away.

 

[TallBill]

Originally posted by: sdifox
Sounds like a slime boss trying to look good to his boss. Your friend is done either way.


You guys have VPN logs no? Your friend can use that as defense.

Yeah, time to start keeping records of all work done for the company so that when they claim that you're working 39.5 hours you actually have proof that it was way more.

 

[SagaLore]

Originally posted by: child of wonder
Anyway, I don't call the shots so I can accept it or leave. My co-worker has a meeting this afternoon with our boss and his boss. We'll see what happens.

Interesting. At first, I was thinking that regardless of what the boss may have said, even through email, really doesn't apply in the end, unless it was signed and date by him and HR. But after explaining how much you guys work remotely, I'm wondering how anybody can properly track that via the timeclock? He should ask this in his meeting with the bosses. I would suggest he also ask one of the HR persons to be in the meeting. If this guy is egotistically bipolar then I'd say go ahead and play his game. 😛

 

[SagaLore]

Originally posted by: waggy
the boss is in the wrong. i would go talk to HR about it. but then i would also start looking for another job. its just going to get worse

Yep, this is true. I think he should pass his CCNA, then immediately post to Monster, DICE, and craigslist.

 

[SagaLore]

Originally posted by: sdifox
You guys have VPN logs no? Your friend can use that as defense.

Ooooh, also a good idea. He should parse those logs into a spread sheet and total up the time spent per week, and bring those to the meeting (and ask to have them stapled to the review as well).

 

[aceO07]

Your coworker should prepare for his meeting. He should be able to defend why he is a good worker, how he is important to the company and what extra work he does outside of the office.

 

[dullard]

I believe the law is a little fuzzy in your situation, but you might want to look into whether you and your coworkers qualify for overtime. By law, certain salaried workers are owed overtime if they are clocked in/out. If I understand it correctly (I'm not an expert so look this up), you are owed overtime even on a salary if you :

1) Clock in/out
2) Make less than $100k/year base salary (before bonuses and other compensation),
3) Are not an executive, administrator, or professional.

The fuzzy part of the law is that some network people are professionals and some aren't. I think because he doesn't yet have his CCNA, he can more easilly claim that he isn't yet a professional.

If this applies to you, then bring it up to your boss. When faced with the idea that he may have to pay every employee hundreds/thousands of dollars of overtime each month, your boss will likely VERY QUICKLY eliminate #1 (clocking in/out). 4 minutes here or there is nothing compared to having to keep track of and pay overtime for salaried workers.