Law Protecting Unions Hinders Gulf Cleanup

[spidey07]

Can we trust you'll come back to publicly admit your partisan hatred was wrong (again) if Obama does approve it ... now that the waiver request has been submitted?

How many days has this national disaster gone on? His failure to suspend it is grounds for ridicule even if he does suspend it now.

Too little, too late.

 

[Patranus]

Exactly. It reeks of the usual Fox technique of smearing through innuendo. I'd like some credible digging to find out how much actual fire is behind that smoke.

But that is largely technology transferred to US vessels. Some of the best clean up ships – owned by Belgian, Dutch and the Norwegian firms are NOT being used. Coast Guard Lt. Commander, Chris O’Neil, says that is because they do not meet “the operational requirements of the Unified Area Command.” One of those operational requirements is that vessels comply with the Jones Act.
"Yes, it does apply,” said ONeil,“ I have heard no discussions of waivers.”

Coast Guard Lt. Commander Chris O’Neil isn't a credible source?

 

[Bowfinger]

How many days has this national disaster gone on? His failure to suspend it is grounds for ridicule even if he does suspend it now.

Too little, too late.

Back pedaling already, I see. Let's all remember what you said about Obama approving a waiver:

But he won't, we all know he won't.

Are you willing to retract your words or not?

As far as "Too little, too late" is concerned, that presumes the points I mention above, that the resources were ready and waiting, that the Jones Act was why they hadn't been used, and that Obama was aware of this and chose not to act. If all are found to be true, I'll absolutely agree with you: Obama screwed up, big time. If not, you were wrong ... as usual.

 

[Bowfinger]

Coast Guard Lt. Commander Chris O’Neil isn't a credible source?

He is indeed, but look carefully at what he said. He didn't say the Jones Act was the reason they weren't used. He said they didn't meet the operational requirements. He does not explain which operational requirement they don't meet. In spite of that, Fox insinuates that's the reason by noting that the Jones Act is one of the operational requirements. Having made the insinuation, Fox returns to quoting O'Neil who agrees the Jones Act is *an* operational requirement, but that nobody has asked for it to be waived.

This would have been the place for Fox to act like journalists and dig into which operational requirements weren't met and why there had been no request to waive the Jones Act. Maybe they ran out of time, maybe they didn't think to ask those questions, or maybe the answers didn't meet their agenda so they omitted them from their story. I don't know. Whatever the reason, we're left in the dark, waiting for more diligent journalists to dig into these questions and report specifically why these other resources have not yet been brought to the battle.

Edit: I will add, given that Obama is O'Neil's boss, it could well be O'Neil is covering for the administration by not offering a forthright explanation of what's going on. That is yet another reason we need somebody to dig into this.

 

[DaveSimmons]

Coast Guard Lt. Commander Chris O’Neil isn't a credible source?

I don't see anyone here denying that the ships exist or that they would need the waiver to operate in the US.

The blog does not offer any evidence that the ships are needed (i.e. that there are not enough US ships available that are currently sitting idle) or that the ships have been "turned away."

 

[dahunan]

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/business/steffy/7043272.html

Three days after the explosion of the Deepwater Horizon in the Gulf of Mexico, the Dutch government offered to help.
It was willing to provide ships outfitted with oil-skimming booms, and it proposed a plan for building sand barriers to protect sensitive marshlands.
The response from the Obama administration and BP, which are coordinating the cleanup: “The embassy got a nice letter from the administration that said, ‘Thanks, but no thanks,'” said Geert Visser, consul general for the Netherlands in Houston.
Now, almost seven weeks later, as the oil spewing from the battered well spreads across the Gulf and soils pristine beaches and coastline, BP and our government have reconsidered.
U.S. ships are being outfitted this week with four pairs of the skimming booms airlifted from the Netherlands and should be deployed within days. Each pair can process 5 million gallons of water a day, removing 20,000 tons of oil and sludge.
At that rate, how much more oil could have been removed from the Gulf during the past month?
The uncoordinated response to an offer of assistance has become characteristic of this disaster's response. Too often, BP and the government don't seem to know what the other is doing, and the response has seemed too slow and too confused.
Federal law has also hampered the assistance. The Jones Act, the maritime law that requires all goods be carried in U.S. waters by U.S.-flagged ships, has prevented Dutch ships with spill-fighting equipment from entering U.S. coastal areas.
“What's wrong with accepting outside help?” Visser asked. “If there's a country that's experienced with building dikes and managing water, it's the Netherlands.”
Even if, three days after the rig exploded, it seemed as if the Dutch equipment and expertise wasn't needed, wouldn't it have been better to accept it, to err on the side of having too many resources available rather than not enough?
BP has been inundated with well-intentioned cleanup suggestions, but the Dutch offer was different. It came through official channels, from a government offering to share its demonstrated expertise.
Many in the U.S., including the president, have expressed frustration with the handling of the cleanup. In the Netherlands, the response would have been different, Visser said.
There, the government owns the cleanup equipment, including the skimmers now being deployed in the Gulf.
“If there's a spill in the Netherlands, we give the oil companies 12 hours to react,” he said.
If the response is inadequate or the companies are unprepared, the government takes over and sends the companies the bill.

 

[DaveSimmons]

Thanks, that supplies more useful information than the other blog, though it does apply 20/20 hindsight.

Despite one sentence in that blog mentioning the Jones act the OP is still unsupported though -- the Dutch aren't here because we declined their offer on day 3, they weren't turned away at the Gulf for not having their union cards.

There, the government owns the cleanup equipment, including the skimmers now being deployed in the Gulf.
“If there's a spill in the Netherlands, we give the oil companies 12 hours to react,” he said.
If the response is inadequate or the companies are unprepared, the government takes over and sends the companies the bill.

Interesting, but not good news for the small-government, business knows best crowd here.

 

[WHAMPOM]

Interesting.



http://liveshots.blogs.foxnews.com/2010/06/10/jones-act-slowing-oil-spill-cleanup/?test=latestnews

The United States is turning away help from other countries because of a law designed to protect union jobs.

The Jones Act says that ships operating off the U.S. coast must be crewed by US union workers.

There are ship coming in from other countries yet they cannot help because of this regulation.

Thank you labor union bosses you once against have helped this country.

Violins in the street again?

 

[umbrella39]

How many days has this national disaster gone on? His failure to suspend it is grounds for ridicule even if he does suspend it now.

Too little, too late.

Would it be so hard to admit when you are wrong...

 

[Darwin333]

Obama should never have signed that law in the 1920s

Bush suspended it during Katrina, can Obama not do the same?

 

[DaveSimmons]

Bush suspended it during Katrina, can Obama not do the same?

As mentioned earlier, yes. And so far there is no evidence in this thread that lack of a waiver has caused problems:

"When asked about this by Fox News, Admiral Allen said, “If it gets to the point where a Jones Act waiver is required, we're willing to do that too Nobody has come to me with a request for a Jones Act waiver.” "

 

[Darwin333]

there was a interview with a worker. he said they work a 15 min on then off and have "breaks" every other hour plus a half hour lunch (starts when they got to the place to eat) etc.

i was amazed at how little they actually work..

sure its hot. but you can work a little more then that!

It is much more absurd than even that. Those 15 minutes include putting on a ton of PPEs so on some boats you end up working 7-10 minutes an hour. I have been on boats that had assholes on it whose only job was to run a fuckin stopwatch. The really absurd part is most of these guys bust ass on the very same boats for days at a time, you get a break when you go home. These are born and raised coonasses that are used to 96 degrees with the humidity so high you gotta chew the air before you breathe it. Trust me, they are used to sweating a bit and they damn sure don't mind doing so.

I could post for days about the downright idiotic bullshit they are doing right now. That is what happens when you have no "point man". Someone please find Gen. Honore and get his ass back down here. Florida needs to pay attention very closely and find their own person to put in charge, a real leader who doesn't give a fuck about the bullshit red tape and just plain gets shit done or else you will end up just as fucked as we are.

 

[Darwin333]

As mentioned earlier, yes. And so far there is no evidence in this thread that lack of a waiver has caused problems:

"When asked about this by Fox News, Admiral Allen said, “If it gets to the point where a Jones Act waiver is required, we're willing to do that too Nobody has come to me with a request for a Jones Act waiver.” "

Oh is that what it is? Thanks for that quote, I guess since I am only on the water 3 days a week I don't see all those tankers out there removing the oil from the water. What a novel fucking idea huh, actually removing oil from the water with big ass ships that are designed to HOLD MOTHERFUCKING OIL. Aint it a bitch that most of those vessels aren't US flagged? So as of RIGHT NOW some of the most effective vessels at removing the oil from the water can not legally do so but he needs a request passed through proper chain of command, in triplicate... oops you forgot to initial here and here...



Why don't you post some bullshit quote about who is actually "in charge" and then bring your ass down here and tell me if thats the way you see it. Typical government bullshit, in order to hire the boats you need to know that they will be able to offload their cargo but they won't waive the rules until a boat actually needs to offload. Why don't you drag ass down here and jump on a boat with me to clean up bayous that have been decimated because the fucking COE took weeks to make decisions when we had days to act.

We have been begging for these ships so pretty please tell me how to get in touch with the good Admiral and I will make the request myself if that is all he is waiting on.

Our local officials are no leaders either. A leader doesn't give a shit about rules when it is go time. They get the job done and pay the price later.

 

[DaveSimmons]

That may all be true, but this thread claimed that lack of the waiver and unions are what is blocking a horde of ships waiting just outside the Gulf to swoop in and start cleaning.

Since there is no evidence of that yet in the thread, perhaps it should have been about "why didn't BP ask for these ships weeks ago?" instead.

...or "why don't the feds have their own equipment, funded by taxes on Big Oil?" since that's what the Dutch experts recommend.

 

[Darwin333]

That may all be true, but this thread claimed that lack of the waiver and unions are what is blocking a horde of ships waiting just outside the Gulf to swoop in and start cleaning.

Since there is no evidence of that yet in the thread, perhaps it should have been about "why didn't BP ask for these ships weeks ago?" instead.

...or "why don't the feds have their own equipment, funded by taxes on Big Oil?" since that's what the Dutch experts recommend.

Or maybe, and I know this is a real big stretch, why didn't the Feds waive the rules and hire the boats their damned selves like we have been begging them to do and then send the bill to BP? One would think that 50+ days would be plenty of time but they would evidently be wrong.

The Feds have been nothing but a part of the problem. From the Coast Guard, the COE, the EPA, the Administration, etc... Lead, follow or get the fuck out of the way.

Bottom line is the Feds need to STOP BEING A PART OF THE FUCKING PROBLEM AND START BEING PART OF THE SOLUTION. Clear enough or is the font not acceptable to some asshole bureaucrat who does nothing but push paper?

 

[lothar]

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/business/steffy/7043272.html

Three days after the explosion of the Deepwater Horizon in the Gulf of Mexico, the Dutch government offered to help.
It was willing to provide ships outfitted with oil-skimming booms, and it proposed a plan for building sand barriers to protect sensitive marshlands.
The response from the Obama administration and BP, which are coordinating the cleanup: “The embassy got a nice letter from the administration that said, ‘Thanks, but no thanks,'” said Geert Visser, consul general for the Netherlands in Houston.
Now, almost seven weeks later, as the oil spewing from the battered well spreads across the Gulf and soils pristine beaches and coastline, BP and our government have reconsidered.
U.S. ships are being outfitted this week with four pairs of the skimming booms airlifted from the Netherlands and should be deployed within days. Each pair can process 5 million gallons of water a day, removing 20,000 tons of oil and sludge.
At that rate, how much more oil could have been removed from the Gulf during the past month?
The uncoordinated response to an offer of assistance has become characteristic of this disaster's response. Too often, BP and the government don't seem to know what the other is doing, and the response has seemed too slow and too confused.
Federal law has also hampered the assistance. The Jones Act, the maritime law that requires all goods be carried in U.S. waters by U.S.-flagged ships, has prevented Dutch ships with spill-fighting equipment from entering U.S. coastal areas.
“What's wrong with accepting outside help?” Visser asked. “If there's a country that's experienced with building dikes and managing water, it's the Netherlands.”
Even if, three days after the rig exploded, it seemed as if the Dutch equipment and expertise wasn't needed, wouldn't it have been better to accept it, to err on the side of having too many resources available rather than not enough?
BP has been inundated with well-intentioned cleanup suggestions, but the Dutch offer was different. It came through official channels, from a government offering to share its demonstrated expertise.
Many in the U.S., including the president, have expressed frustration with the handling of the cleanup. In the Netherlands, the response would have been different, Visser said.
There, the government owns the cleanup equipment, including the skimmers now being deployed in the Gulf.
“If there's a spill in the Netherlands, we give the oil companies 12 hours to react,” he said.
If the response is inadequate or the companies are unprepared, the government takes over and sends the companies the bill.

Wow.

 

[Craig234]

What a perfect issue for the Republicans to hype for their agenda.

They would like to defend BP, based on their 'corporations can do almost anything and get their backing' position, but that's politically costly.

And they love to attack unions, who cost the rich money by making pay higher than substinence and not having an oligarchy of wealth.

This lets them do both - by hyping the story, they can change the subject from BP's wrongdoing, and attack unions and the Obama administration, and even praise Bush.

Of course the story will get into their talking points, it serves their agenda very well.

I wouldn't look to them for any responsible issues to get answered like the actual impact of the law on this situation. No, the oil would already be gone but for Obama and unions!

The Republicans have been far too willing to screw workers with anti-union policies - for example, the Bush adminstration creating massive federal programs with non-union work.

That was an abuse of such 'exemptions' for their pro-rich agenda.

It seems it would be justified to have an exception here, if it would help. That's a question to look into. But not to have the issue hyped without any answer.

 

[Hacp]

Outrageous. Obama, BP, and the Unions colluding the ruin America again! Color me surprised.

 

[umbrella39]

Outrageous. Obama, BP, and the Unions colluding the ruin America again! Color me surprised.

Too late... you are already colored stupid.

 

[Bowfinger]

Outrageous. Obama, BP, and the Unions colluding the ruin America again! Color me surprised.

Hint: If you care at all about people taking you seriously. try to NOT be such a brainlessly flaming hack. Really. Just for the sheer novelty of it. Because right now you are nothing but a clown, a stereotypical clueless, loud-mouthed teenager who has no actual knowledge or experience with anything yet struts about as if he knows everything. Grow up or shut up kid.


There have been a lot of fuck-ups and dropped balls in this disaster, by both the governments and the companies involved. They aren't colluding to ruin America, however.

 

[Hacp]

Hint: If you care at all about people taking you seriously. try to NOT be such a brainlessly flaming hack. Really. Just for the sheer novelty of it. Because right now you are nothing but a clown, a stereotypical clueless, loud-mouthed teenager who has no actual knowledge or experience with anything yet struts about as if he knows everything. Grow up or shut up kid.


There have been a lot of fuck-ups and dropped balls in this disaster, by both the governments and the companies involved. They aren't colluding to ruin America, however.

So I take it you support BP, Obama, and the Unions. Popular opinion in the US is against all three.

 

[Schadenfroh]

Looks like Florida's AG has requested that Obama grant a waiver:
http://wireupdate.com/local/florida...-waive-jones-act-to-hasten-oil-spill-efforts/

Florida Attorney General Bill McCollum on Friday sent a letter to President Barack Obama, asking for a limited waiver on the Jones Act to hasten the oil spill response and the cleanup efforts.

It was reported that many international parties are willing to support the cleanup efforts.

However, the Jones Act impedes foreign vessels to offer direct assistance to the Gulf Coast response because the foreign equipment must be transferred to U.S. ships, resulting in a time-consuming process that slows down the cleanup efforts.
The Netherlands offered highly effective skimmers, which many parties recall as an effective equipment to remove oil from seawater and more important, it is capable of processing large quantities of water daily. For the fore mentioned reasons, McCollum is asking for a temporary waiver on such law.

"Federal law should not stand in the way of relief to our natural resources and economies," the Attorney General said on his letter. "I respectfully as that the provisions of the Jones Act be waived given the ongoing environmental disaster, as it was waived to assist in response to Hurricane Katrina."

 

[Bowfinger]

Looks like Florida's AG has requested that Obama grant a waiver:
http://wireupdate.com/local/florida...-waive-jones-act-to-hasten-oil-spill-efforts/

Yes, that's what I was referring to yesterday. I found an article about it in a local Florida paper, just a couple of hours old. Let's see how quickly the Obama admin responds.

 

[Bowfinger]

So I take it you support BP, Obama, and the Unions. Popular opinion in the US is against all three.

Yes, because those are the only two options, either they are in collusion to "ruin America," or I support them.

I'll revise what I said earlier. You're not bright enough to be a teenager. You are, however, still a clown.

 

[nobodyknows]

The strategy is obvious, the soonner we trash the gulf coastlines the closer we can drill to the shores.