Late 6970?

[T2k]

tviceman, let's break it down shall we?

We can all agree that Cayman will beat the GTX 480 or else why release such a shitty card right?

If we look at the performance of the GTX 580 over the GTX 480 it around 15-20% faster across the board so that doesn't leave much space for Cayman to be slower than GTX 580 and be faster then GTX 480.

Say we put Cayman at 10% faster than GTX 480 and 10% slower than GTX 580.

Now for the pricing, I want to go back to Barts with this, the reason why Barts was released was not to specifically replace Cypress or Juniper, it was supposed to fill a gap that AMD had in the line up. If we assume that AMD wants to avoid creating this gap again I am going to go out on a limb and say Cayman shouldn't have an MSRP over $399.99.

Of course I can be wrong, Cayman can be a dud, and Antilles may explode but this is just my $.02

You're using logic here? How dare you? :biggrin:

 

[Arkadrel]

@Badboy

The 5870 is like ~300$... Im gonna go out on a limb and say the cayman is probably gonna cost around.... 350-399$. If its 5% slower than a 580... prices on the 580s will probably go down from their current ~550$ price tag.

I'd be pissed if I bought a 550$ card, and 2 weeks lateron a card from the competitors comes out and the card I bought dropped 100$+ in 2 weeks time.

 

[badb0y]

@Badboy

The 5870 is like ~300$... Im gonna go out on a limb and say the cayman is probably gonna cost around.... 350-399$. If its 5% slower than a 580... prices on the 580s will probably go down from their current ~550$ price tag.

Certainly hope so, and in general this a win-win for all. 5-10% discrepancy between two cards there's bound to be a price war!

 

[tviceman]

That does sound unlikely... if it turns out true, Im sure you ll be eating your words though 🙂

If the hd6970 is faster than the gtx580 then, as has already been said a few posts above by myself and Genx with his quote "Either AMD will have to majorly rework their product to crush the 580 or the 6970 was going to crush anyways." hd6970 won't crush gtx580 because of miraculous last minute tweaks.

 

[Daedalus685]

No it's not. It can be both but read back, I was specifically referring to big jumps.

Yes, they can except not the way you misunderstood what I said... 😉

Rewriting from scratch: yes. Rewriting per-game/per-method/etc parts: no.

Exactly. And when you have a new architecture it's typically several weeks until you actually start seeing which way to move with your drivers, with all these fixes. In other words all they have to do is bring forward what might have been prioritized lower here and simultaneously keep testing for the highest stable clocks and settings.

Drivers are a progression.. they are not reactive.

They are always improving the efficiency of them (to a point). The process is far more time consuming than you seem to think.. Also they would be working on them anyway. They will not use them to respond to the 580.

They get to a point where the cards can be released and that is that. They will continue to marginally improve as time goes on for various reasons. There is a reason each driver brings a small increase and it does not happen all at once. There is also a reason they quote increases on a per game basis.. as optimizations are applied on a per game basis.

 

[tviceman]

tviceman, let's break it down shall we?

We can all agree that Cayman will beat the GTX 480 or else why release such a shitty card right?

If we look at the performance of the GTX 580 over the GTX 480 it around 15-20% faster across the board so that doesn't leave much space for Cayman to be slower than GTX 580 and be faster then GTX 480.

Say we put Cayman at 10% faster than GTX 480 and 10% slower than GTX 580.

You're not arguing against anything I am saying, so not really sure why you're "breaking it down" for me.

 

[96Firebird]

The 5870 is like ~300$... Im gonna go out on a limb and say the cayman is probably gonna cost around.... 350-399$. If its 5% slower than a 580... prices on the 580s will probably go down from their current ~550$ price tag.

Newegg is the only place I see selling them for $550+, and I think its because of their promo code discount. EVGA has their models for $499+ on their website, and TD has them for $499-$530.

http://www.evga.com/products/prodlist.asp

http://www.tigerdirect.com/applicati...ywords=gtx+580

 

[Gikaseixas]

i think it will be slightly slower than the 580 and about 50 or 60 bucks less

then again i might be wrong

it could be 5% faster and cost the same

all assumptions right now so i'll wait

 

[badb0y]

You're not arguing against anything I am saying, so not really sure why you're "breaking it down" for me.

No, that was the worst case scenario there, we don't know what the performance of Cayman will be, just because AMD says "right product at the right price" doesn't mean Cayman will be slower than GTX 580 BUT my assumption is they will be pretty much equal with games going either way.

 

[Red Storm]

6970 will not be faster than 580. It will sit between the 480 and 580, while costing a lot less, causing the prices of the 580 to crash (and it wouldn't be the first time it's happened this way).

AMD's flagship is the dual-gpu card, which is two Caymans (Caymen?). That will beat the 580.

This is all my opinion of course, but I think it's a safe bet.

 

[Axon]

6970 will not be faster than 580. It will sit between the 480 and 580, while costing a lot less, causing the prices of the 580 to crash (and it wouldn't be the first time it's happened this way).

AMD's flagship is the dual-gpu card, which is two Caymans (Caymen?). That will beat the 580.

This is all my opinion of course, but I think it's a safe bet.

This is more or less what happened this round, so it sounds reasonable.

 

[MangoX]

@Badboy

The 5870 is like ~300$... Im gonna go out on a limb and say the cayman is probably gonna cost around.... 350-399$. If its 5% slower than a 580... prices on the 580s will probably go down from their current ~550$ price tag.

I'd be pissed if I bought a 550$ card, and 2 weeks lateron a card from the competitors comes out and the card I bought dropped 100$+ in 2 weeks time.

We've already seen this. Cue the 280/4870 launch.

 

[T2k]

Drivers are a progression.. they are not reactive.

They are always improving the efficiency of them (to a point). The process is far more time consuming than you seem to think.. Also they would be working on them anyway. They will not use them to respond to the 580.

They get to a point where the cards can be released and that is that. They will continue to marginally improve as time goes on for various reasons.

As I said you are wrong and I don't even understand why are you arguing about this silly stuff - anyone can see my point who takes a look at Catalyst and Forceware changelogs.

There is a reason each driver brings a small increase and it does not happen all at once. There is also a reason they quote increases on a per game basis.. as optimizations are applied on a per game basis.

Which pretty much makes my point about sudden jumps in certain games in certain driver releases, thank you.

 

[T2k]

This is more or less what happened this round, so it sounds reasonable.

Ehh? 580 arrives a year later w/ ~15% over the 5870...? And still unable to beat the 5970?

Or you're saying 6970 will be beaten a year from now by ~15% and 6990 will reign supreme for over a year...? Or perhaps that 680 will arrive with some crazy noise and power-craze to match 6970 around Spring? 😀

 

[happy medium]

6970 will not be faster than 580. It will sit between the 480 and 580, while costing a lot less, causing the prices of the 580 to crash (and it wouldn't be the first time it's happened this way).

I see it like this too. History repeats itself once again.

This time Nvidia will have a dual flagship card also. gtx295 vs 4870x2 anyone?

 

[T2k]

I see it like this too. History repeats itself once again.

I highly doubt it.

This time Nvidia will have a dual flagship card also. gtx295 vs 4870x2 anyone?

That would be nice, further pushing down 6990's price... :awe:

 

[Skurge]

This time Nvidia will have a dual flagship card also. gtx295 vs 4870x2 anyone?

I seriously do not see this happening. The 580 would have to be >200W TDP card before you can think of putting 2 of them on one PCB under 300W.

GTX295 used underclocked 275 (a >200W card) cores, 5970 uses underclocked 5870 (again >200W card) cores.

 

[Silverforce11]

Drivers would be a good reason to delay a launch. First impressions are the most lasting ones. But if drivers are the reason for the delayed, then I'm going to say that without a doubt in my mind the leaked 6970 benchmarks from months back were faked.

Wasn't fake, was on premature drivers, standard cat10.10 with no tweaks for the new architecture.

If NOV 22 +/- a few days come and no launch then you can all say its delayed. Otherwise, these rumors are NV fud. Not the first nor the last.

 

[tviceman]

Wasn't fake, was on premature drivers, standard cat10.10 with no tweaks for the new architecture.

If NOV 22 +/- a few days come and no launch then you can all say its delayed. Otherwise, these rumors are NV fud. Not the first nor the last.

Ohhhkay Mr. "I have a 6770, errr whoops you meant 6870, in my possession 1 month before launch and overclocked it on air 200mhz with voltage adjustments and the shaders are 4d and it equals oroutperforms the hd5870 in DX11."

 

[Cookie Monster]

Ehh? 580 arrives a year later w/ ~15% over the 5870...? And still unable to beat the 5970?

Or you're saying 6970 will be beaten a year from now by ~15% and 6990 will reign supreme for over a year...? Or perhaps that 680 will arrive with some crazy noise and power-craze to match 6970 around Spring? 😀

The GTX580 is in the vicinity of being 30~44% faster than the HD5870. The HD5970 is about 3~5% faster overall which isn't very much so its pretty much a draw here.

 

[Cookie Monster]

I seriously do not see this happening. The 580 would have to be >200W TDP card before you can think of putting 2 of them on one PCB under 300W.

GTX295 used underclocked 275 (a >200W card) cores, 5970 uses underclocked 5870 (again >200W card) cores.

They could potentially use 480SP version of their GF110 chips for a dual GPU card. Performance around the GTX480 SLi for possibly much lower power consumption.

 

[Arkadrel]

They could potentially use 480SP version of their GF110 chips for a dual GPU card. Performance around the GTX480 SLi for possibly much lower power consumption.

the problem is 6870x2 on 1 card could do that... and their poweruseage is much smaller so they wouldnt have to be downclocked nearly as much as 2x480s would.

And it would still be slower than the caymanx2 that the 6990 is supposed to be.

 

[T2k]

The GTX580 is in the vicinity of being 30~44% faster than the HD5870. The HD5970 is about 3~5% faster overall which isn't very much so its pretty much a draw here.

Actually that's ~15% 580 vs 5870 in every game that wasn't handicapped by NV and 5970 is rather 5-10% so no, it's really far from a draw.

 

[SolMiester]

Actually that's ~15% 580 vs 5870 in every game that wasn't handicapped by NV and 5970 is rather 5-10% so no, it's really far from a draw.

fcuk, you really are too much....'and 35% improvement in games not handicapped by AMD!

 

[T2k]

fcuk, you really are too much....'and 35% improvement in games not handicapped by AMD!

Stop talking silly nonsense - there are no games handicapped by AMD but there are SEVERAL games handicapped by NV.
It's a fact, even the most rabid NV fans know this.