Last anti-Chavez TV station faces probe, shutdown

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Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
As far as I'm aware, the Venezuelan government has previously shut down one tv station for active participation in the coup to overthrow democracy. An article on that shutdown:

(Note how the same nonsense was used to ignore the station's actions in the coup and to refer to it only as 'opposition to free speech', while 95% of the media is anti-Chavez)

Venezuelan President Hugo Chávez has long been demonized by the Western media as a ?leftist firebrand? (the U.K. Independent), ?militaristic strongman? (Financial Times), and as ?Venezuela?s demagogue? (The Washington Post).

No surprise, then, that Chávez?s decision not to renew the license of Radio Caracas Television (RCTV) elicited outrage across Britain and the United States. In a May 29 article titled ?He Is Losing the Country?s Respect,? Catherine Philp wrote in The Times of London: ?The move has fuelled accusations that Mr Chavez is moving towards an increasingly authoritarian rule and is quashing dissent against his ?socialist revolution.? ?

The Washington Post described the action as an attempt to silence opponents, supplying further proof that Chávez is a ?dictator.? A Washington Times editorial described Chávez as ?the Venezuelan muzzler,? adding, ?Mr. Chavez?s so-called 21st century socialism resembles the destructive, oppressive and authoritarian socialist regimes of the 20th century.?

One might think from these comments that Chávez is indeed behaving like a stereotypical ?strongman.? So why did he refuse to renew the license?

According to CNN reporter T.J. Holmes, the motive lies in the fact that RCTV ?has been critical of his government.? Or as a Financial Times headline put it, ?Chavez Pulls Plug on Dissenting TV Station.?

These and similar claims have given the impression that Chávez is simply crushing dissent. An Independent editorial came closer to the truth: ?President Chavez has long detested RCTV, accusing it of helping to incite a coup against him in 2002.?

The problem with RCTV, in fact, does not revolve around political differences with Chávez , but rather with its complicity in an attempt to overthrow Venezuela?s government.
As with The Independent editorial quoted above, a consistent theme of media reporting has been to ascribe this ?accusation? to Chávez personally. The Independent referred to RCTV, ?which Mr Chávez believes was plotting against him.? And The Times reported: ?President Chavez withdrew its licence, accusing the network of ?coup plotting.??

These media reports all distort the truth by attributing a mere ?claim? to Chávez, someone they have all previously demonized as an authoritarian strongman. This earlier demonization acts to undermine the credibility of the charge against RCTV in readers? minds, so reinforcing the bias of ostensibly balanced reporting against the Venezuelan government.
In a rare example of media honesty, the Los Angeles Times reported in May that RCTV had initially been focused on providing entertainment. ?But after Chávez was elected president in 1998,? the article stated, ?RCTV shifted to another endeavor: ousting a democratically elected leader from office.?

Controlled by members of the country?s ruling elite, including station chief Marcel Granier, the channel saw Chávez?s Bolivarian Revolution in defense of Venezuela?s poor as a threat to established privilege and wealth.

Thus, for two days before the April 11, 2002, coup, RCTV canceled regular programming and ran constant coverage of a general strike aimed at ousting Chávez. A stream of commentators delivered fierce criticism of the president with no response allowed from the government. RCTV also ran nonstop advertisements encouraging people to attend an April 11 march aimed at toppling the government and later broadcast blanket coverage of the event. When the march ended in violence, RCTV ran manipulated video footage falsely blaming Chávez supporters for scores of deaths and injuries.

On the same day, RCTV allowed leading coup plotter Carlos Ortega to call for demonstrators to march on the presidential palace. After the overthrow appeared to have succeeded, another coup leader, Vice Admiral Victor Ramírez Pérez, told a journalist, ?We had a deadly weapon: the media. And now that I have the opportunity, let me congratulate you.? Another grateful leader remarked: ?I must thank Venevisión and RCTV.?

RCTV news director Andrés Izarra later testified at National Assembly hearings on the coup attempt that he had received clear orders from superiors at the station: ?Zero pro-Chávez, nothing related to Chávez or his supporters. . . . The idea was to create a climate of transition and to start to promote the dawn of a new country.?

While the streets of Caracas erupted with public outrage against the coup, RCTV broadcast soap operas, cartoons, and old movies.

On April 13, 2002, RCTV?s Marcel Granier and other media moguls met in the Miraflores palace to offer their support to the country?s new dictator, Pedro Carmona, who in one stroke eliminated Venezuela?s Supreme Court and the National Assembly, and suspended its Constitution. When Chávez returned to power that same day, the commercial stations refused to cover the news.

Many journalists have reported the enforced closure of RCTV, but in fact the channel has not been shut down; it has been broadcasting since July by satellite and cable. Fairness and Accuracy in Reporting made the point that matters: ?Were a similar event to happen in the U.S., and TV journalists and executives were caught conspiring with coup plotters, it?s doubtful they would stay out of jail, let alone be allowed to continue to run television stations, as they have in Venezuela.?

In a letter published in the Guardian (May 26, 2007), Gordon Hutchinson of the Venezuela Information Centre rejected the claim that there is censorship in Venezuela, where 95% of the media is fiercely opposed to the government. This includes five privately owned TV channels controlling 90% of the market. All of the country?s 118 newspaper companies, both regional and national, are privately held, as are 706 out of 709 radio stations.

While the British and U.S. press focus intensely on the alleged crushing of free speech in Venezuela, little is written about much worse actions elsewhere.

In Honduras, beginning May 28, President Manuel Zelaya ordered all TV and radio stations to broadcast one-hour prime-time programs every day for 10 days to counteract what he called ?misinformation? on his administration provided by the media.

The BBC reported Zelaya?s actions May 25. A June 11 media database search found that in the previous two weeks, the U.S. press mentioned the Zelaya story in four articles, the highest-profile outlet being The Miami Herald; in contrast, the words Chávez and RCTV were mentioned in 207 articles during the same period. British newspapers did not mention Zelaya?s actions at all, while Chávez and RCTV were mentioned in 23 articles.

In Colombia, President Álvaro Uribe was asked if he would have refused to renew RCTV?s license. ?I would not do that to anybody,? he replied. The Inter Press Service news agency commented wryly: ?But the right-wing Uribe cannot shut down opposition TV stations for the simple reason that there aren?t any.?

In October 2004, Uribe closed the public Instituto de Radio y Televisión (Inravisión). The Colombian government argued that Inravisión was ?inefficient.? But the underlying problem ?was the strength of the union? of Inravisión employees, according to Milciades Vizcaíno, a sociologist who worked for almost 27 years in educational programming for the channel.

These and many other similar attacks on free speech across the region do not make the front pages of the British and U.S. press. As usual, alleged concerns for democracy and human rights mask deeper priorities: protecting governments that toe the line dictated by Western power, and undermining those that do not.
David Edwards is co-editor of www.medialens.org and the author, with David
Cromwell, of Guardians of Power?The Myth of the Liberal Media (Pluto Press,
2006).
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
Originally posted by: MovingTarget
[Yeah, lets just give Chavez a free pass for anything he does against his opponents

Liar: no one 'gave Chavez a pass for anything he does against his opponents. You are making a straw man, and lying by misrepresenting what I said.

just because they agreed with his opponents seven years ago.

Liar: It has nothing to do with their 'agreeing', which is a free speech issue, but rather with their actions in assisting the coup.

I'm sure you'd just love to have all tv stations in any country to espouse only one viewpoint.

Liar: I've advocated only freedom of speech. You are lying about my position.

Oh, nice jab against me just because i happen to be against someone on the left.

You lie and lie and lie ad then whine you are getting a jab for - get ready, big rusprise coming - a reason that you say is the reason, but is actually another lie.

My attack had nothing to do with you 'happening to be against someone on the left'. That is another straw man and another lie from you against misrepresenting my position.

Dictatorship is dictatorship, whether right or left leaning.

That's true. But you fail at establishing that Chavez is a ditator and not a legitimately elected President.

You have to ignore the facts to do that, such as his pledge to abide by the results of the recall election against him (which failed to recall him), funded by his wealthy opponents.

The weatlhy are very corrupt, anti-democracy, wanting to return to terrible oppression of the poor, and you lie and lie to side with them to do so.

You want to talk about destroying democracy...you should be looking to Chavez. The right in Venezuela failed in 2002, but it seems he will succeed in time.

With a reported 95% of the media against Chavez in the hands of the wealthy oligarchy, far more opposition than the others in the region face from their media, you have a long way to go in your claim which is based on little more, your posts suggest, than your ignroance and ideology.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Craig do you support a law such as this?
Venezuela's television and radio regulatory agency, Conatel, now is determining whether Globovision violated a strict law against "broadcasting messages provoking, supporting or inciting disturbances of public order."

You ignore my response to your post and move on to your next points - sorry, that's not a conversation. Ansswer my post first, and then perhaps I'll answer your next one.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
Originally posted by: rudder
Originally posted by: MovingTarget
He who controls the media controls the nation. This does not bode well for Venezuela. Chavez may not be an official dictator, but he is definitely going down that road.

When the people who try to run against him in general elections are in hiding.... he is a dictator.

Text

You have no place to say a word on this if you - like every righty I've seen in this forum - did not side against the Bush administration's targetted prosecutions.

They are hypocrites.

As for the story you linked - there's a question. Was the prosecution 'politically motivated' or legitimate? I notice it's against a guy who left the party over their refusal to agree for his daughter to succeed him - sounds like the guy was wanting nepotism and Chavez's 'corrupt' party refused to let their member have it.

I need more facts on the legitimacy of the prosecution to comment. *If* it is illegitimate and political, I'm just as against it as the Bush corruption.

For just one example not a singe righty here I've seen has shown any integrity on, and we'll see if you do, look as the case of Govenor Don Siegelman. Rove had the Justice Department trump up charges for normal political activity that were so corrupt that as I recall fourty five state Attorneys General of both parties signed a petition asking for the prosecution to be reviewed (and Rove was interviwed last week).

 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
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The behavior of hypocrites who ignore corruption of elections in our own country and attack those who discuss it, who strongly support the election of the people who did not legitimately win when they support them, but become saints on the purity of elections when it involves a candidate they oppose and invent irregularities to attack, is disgusting.

Unfortunately, I just described 95% to 100% of the right-wingers in this forum, it seems.

Any are welcome to correct me by denoucning the 2000 US election or by acknowledging the Venezuelan elections of Chavez have been legitimate.

We'll see how many have integrity.
 

MovingTarget

Diamond Member
Jun 22, 2003
9,002
115
106
Craig, nobody is arguing with you that Chavez was democratically elected. It is irrellevant when it comes to discussing a slide into dictatorship. Being a dictator and being legitimately elected are not mutually exclusive. He isn't a dictator yet, but his actions over the past few years do suggest that he is heading in that direction. Silencing of dissent, cult of personality, attempts to remove term limits, etc. etc. are all signs of this.

Craig, I normally agree with you on a lot of things political, but you are pretty out there when it comes to Chavez. Look at the article, he isn't even citing the coup of seven years ago in trying to take the station down, but their response during a recent earthquake in criticizing the government's response. It isn't a speech issue, but a freedom of the press issue (whether or not Venezuela officially gaurantees this I don't know). It is an excuse to silence dissent, plain and simple. It doesn't matter if x% of stations were owned by the elite back when the coup occurred.

I normally rail against monied interests here in the US. Hell, issues related to social mobility and economic justice are the most important to me in my politics (especially the growing gap between rich and poor). The wealthy (Murdoch, etc) do have a stranglehold on our politics, our airwaves, and all aspects of our government. YOU are the liar in saying that I support these things in ANY country. Take the wool off of your eyes and see Chavez for what he is.

 

Double Trouble

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
9,270
103
106
I lived an hour away from Caracas for 16 years. It's very very sad to see the people of Venezuela subjected to this. Make no mistake about it. Chavez is a nut, and a dangerous one at that. The notion that he was in any way "elected" is about as laughable as when Saddam was "elected". I have friends who live there, and they've told me that people who dare oppose the dictator tend to go "missing", and that virtually nobody dares speak out against him. He's consolidated power in the government by systematically removing people who don't show 100% loyalty to Chavez from power positions and replacing them with Chavez cronies. Chavez and his henchmen have gotten more brazen. If any anyone opposes him in any way or is even remotely critical, their business gets shut down, or they lose their jobs, or the business loses contracts etc.

I'm generally opposed to the US meddling in other countries' affairs, but in the case of Chavez, I would not be opposed to the US having a sniper tap that madman in the head once. At the very least, provide a lot of financial, logistical and intelligence report for the resistance under the regime.

It's not about Chavez being pro or anti the US and it's policies. Heck, when it comes down to it, I agree with him on some of his positions towards multinational companies taking advantage of countries and their resources. This is a madman who has destroyed a country and is on his way to using petro-dollars to destroy a continent. He needs to be stopped.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
Originally posted by: MovingTarget
Craig, nobody is arguing with you that Chavez was democratically elected.

FearNoEvil posted the following:

I hear Castro was elected 'democratically' as well..

That says as clearly as a sarcastic post can that the election of Chavez was not legitimate any more than the electon of Castro was legitimate. Sacrilige quoted him in agreement.

It is irrellevant when it comes to discussing a slide into dictatorship. Being a dictator and being legitimately elected are not mutually exclusive. He isn't a dictator yet, but his actions over the past few years do suggest that he is heading in that direction. Silencing of dissent, cult of personality, attempts to remove term limits, etc. etc. are all signs of this.

I'm largely in agreement with you here. I've long said that I'm watching Chavez for going down that road.

One thing is, that I think few people here - who are pretty much all so ignorant (not that I'm well informed on it, but in comparison I am) about the history and situation of American dominance in the affairs of Central and South America, appreciate how difficult it has been for any 'left-wing legitmate leader' to win in a legitimate election and hold power in the region. They are faced by massive resources and efforts of things like the CIA's having built structures for decades to have a say in what happens.

Chavez faces massive opposition ranging from the US's narrow opposition to almost any legitimate left-wing government (ask President Allende of Chile - oh, wait, our coup directly ordered by Nixon after his former employer, Pepsi, representing US corporations there, killed him; ask President Ortega who had an entire terrorist army, the Contras, formed and funded by the US to assassinate Nicaraguans and pressure them to vote im out to stop the terrrorism (it worked, but when times changed, he got re-elected).

chavez has faced everything from US corporations attempting to destroy his economy to cause his ouster, to the wealthy elites organizing a crippling months-long strike for the same purpose, to actually being removed at gunpoint and imprisoned as the wealthy elites, the media they own, and the US recognized a new government who immediately suspended the constitution and abolished the Supreme Court.

So I have *some* sympathy for Chavez in his vey tough battle against those resources if he needs to take some strong measures to keep the enemies of democracy from winning.

If, as such a small fish in the big pond of the Americas, the few who try to be independant have to band together - that's understandable. We allied with Stalin in WWII. Frankly, I don't like Chavez's close relations with Cuba - but I can also cut him some slack on what he has to do to not have the election overthrown and stay in power where the people put him.

On criticizing Chavez for taking moderate action against *coup supportes*: it'd be far more reasonable to criticize our founding fathers for using any violence in their revolution. It'd be like attacking Obama for prosecuting people for organizing a coup in the US. Chavez didn't even put the coup leaders in jail mostly - he was very soft in his response.

Having said all that, I've expected him to follow democracy, and have repeatedly taken the stand that I wouldn't support various actions if he did them.

The man *fought for the law* to be able to recall a corrupt President and his opponents put up a recall measure using that law - and yet he's called a 'dictator'.

What we have here is a lot of anti-Chavez propaganda from a very large maching designed for that purpose and lot of people who fall for it.

As for my comments, if they're one-sided, it's partly because I'm discussing the false attacks against him, not every Chavez issue. If someone posts "Chavez killed all the puppies in Venezuela", my response might be "no, he didn't", not "no, he didn't, but I oppose his 2004 action on an unrelated matter."

Craig, I normally agree with you on a lot of things political, but you are pretty out there when it comes to Chavez. Look at the article, he isn't even citing the coup of seven years ago in trying to take the station down, but their response during a recent earthquake in criticizing the government's response. It isn't a speech issue, but a freedom of the press issue (whether or not Venezuela officially gaurantees this I don't know). It is an excuse to silence dissent, plain and simple. It doesn't matter if x% of stations were owned by the elite back when the coup occurred.

I'm glad we often agree; but we may disagree on Chavez overall, though again, I'm not too far from the specifics you list. This particula incident does seem excessive to me - but it's easy to forget, again, the situation Chavez is in. People tend to equate the situation elsewhere to what they're familiar with, so Chavez going after a network is seen as the same as our President going after the New York Times, and simply a dictatorial attack on free speech.

Imagine the KKK owning 95% of our media, and filling it with constant attacks, many false, against Obama. We'd probably say that it's a terrible situaton in terms of the lack of balance, that we should try to fix, but that it's still a free speech issue. But if you add in the KKK who own the stations participating in a coup that took Obama out of the White House at gunpoint, and Obama left them on the air for seven years and then tried to use a regulatory procedure to take their license, you might not see Obama as terribly wrong.

If our media was filled with nothig but anti-Obama propaganda except for PBS, your standards for the appropriate actions might change a little.

In short, I don't care for Chavez abusing this law to go after this station *if* that's what he does - we don't know if he will yet - but his actions in context have not begun to justify the attacks in this thread. Let's talk Castro - Castro doesn't seem to allow any real opposition media, much less a class of oligarchs who run 95% of the media and attack him constantly, and if he did and they removed him in a coup, they'd have been shot fast. Chavez's response the last seven years is a far cry from that.

I normally rail against monied interests here in the US. Hell, issues related to social mobility and economic justice are the most important to me in my politics (especially the growing gap between rich and poor). The wealthy (Murdoch, etc) do have a stranglehold on our politics, our airwaves, and all aspects of our government. YOU are the liar in saying that I support these things in ANY country. Take the wool off of your eyes and see Chavez for what he is.

I take great offense to your next to last sentence, but I'll ask you to retract it in light of the fact that you misunderstood what I said. I can see why you would be offended by what you think I said. My statements were about right-wingers - and I tried to separate what I was saying about them versus asking you whether you agreed with them or not. It appears you did not read it that way and thought I said you hold their positions. I accept your statement on your postion, I'm glad to hear it, and ask you to withdraw your comment as a result.

As for Chavez - I'm not saying that he may not become a terrible dictator - but it seems to me that the lack of understanding of his precarious position is naive and needed to understand his situation and the measures that might be needed. I'm not talking about that phrase the way Castro might use it to justify a lot of political prisoners that was a big excess to create a dictatorship, but rather lesser measures, such as when the US corporations that entirely ran his oil infrastructure left and refused to give him the passwords in an effort to cause economic disruption that might get him overthrown, he did what he had to in terms of nationalizing the oil industry and some seizure of the infrastructure.

If you've never seen it, there's a documentary you can watch online called "The Revolution Will Not Be Televised" that helps show the circumstances he's in better.

My support for Chavez is for the extent to which he's trying to move the country from a terrible oligarchy with extreme concentration of wealth - a few hundred families owing if I recall 90% or 95% of the land, much of it unused, to an extent where even JFK reportedly recommended the land reform program Chavez adopted - a country that terribly neglected the poor and had a high level of political corruption by the oligarchy - to a nation more like, well, the US, in having SOME better democracy and egalitarianism.

I'm wary of Chavez - his strong leadership is not a big leap from 'tyrant', but I give him credit for repeatedly choosing democracy over dictatorship.

I think he's gone a bit far at times, but when you look at his precarious environment - come on, you need to understand he's up against extreme corrupt power.

Is it better if his situation goes like Allende's, and he's fondly remembered by the left before he was killed and replaced by a right-wing dictatorship? Do you want that?

If Chavez turns into Castro, I'll oppose him. Until then, I'll correct the ignorance and lies of the right about Chavez - and criticize Chavez as appropriate.
 

Fear No Evil

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2008
5,922
0
0
Originally posted by: Craig234
Originally posted by: MovingTarget
Craig, nobody is arguing with you that Chavez was democratically elected.

FearNoEvil posted the following:

I hear Castro was elected 'democratically' as well..

That says as clearly as a sarcastic post can that the election of Chavez was not legitimate any more than the electon of Castro was legitimate. Sacrilige quoted him in agreement.

It is irrellevant when it comes to discussing a slide into dictatorship. Being a dictator and being legitimately elected are not mutually exclusive. He isn't a dictator yet, but his actions over the past few years do suggest that he is heading in that direction. Silencing of dissent, cult of personality, attempts to remove term limits, etc. etc. are all signs of this.

I'm largely in agreement with you here. I've long said that I'm watching Chavez for going down that road.

One thing is, that I think few people here - who are pretty much all so ignorant (not that I'm well informed on it, but in comparison I am) about the history and situation of American dominance in the affairs of Central and South America, appreciate how difficult it has been for any 'left-wing legitmate leader' to win in a legitimate election and hold power in the region. They are faced by massive resources and efforts of things like the CIA's having built structures for decades to have a say in what happens.

Chavez faces massive opposition ranging from the US's narrow opposition to almost any legitimate left-wing government (ask President Allende of Chile - oh, wait, our coup directly ordered by Nixon after his former employer, Pepsi, representing US corporations there, killed him; ask President Ortega who had an entire terrorist army, the Contras, formed and funded by the US to assassinate Nicaraguans and pressure them to vote im out to stop the terrrorism (it worked, but when times changed, he got re-elected).

chavez has faced everything from US corporations attempting to destroy his economy to cause his ouster, to the wealthy elites organizing a crippling months-long strike for the same purpose, to actually being removed at gunpoint and imprisoned as the wealthy elites, the media they own, and the US recognized a new government who immediately suspended the constitution and abolished the Supreme Court.

So I have *some* sympathy for Chavez in his vey tough battle against those resources if he needs to take some strong measures to keep the enemies of democracy from winning.

If, as such a small fish in the big pond of the Americas, the few who try to be independant have to band together - that's understandable. We allied with Stalin in WWII. Frankly, I don't like Chavez's close relations with Cuba - but I can also cut him some slack on what he has to do to not have the election overthrown and stay in power where the people put him.

On criticizing Chavez for taking moderate action against *coup supportes*: it'd be far more reasonable to criticize our founding fathers for using any violence in their revolution. It'd be like attacking Obama for prosecuting people for organizing a coup in the US. Chavez didn't even put the coup leaders in jail mostly - he was very soft in his response.

Having said all that, I've expected him to follow democracy, and have repeatedly taken the stand that I wouldn't support various actions if he did them.

The man *fought for the law* to be able to recall a corrupt President and his opponents put up a recall measure using that law - and yet he's called a 'dictator'.

What we have here is a lot of anti-Chavez propaganda from a very large maching designed for that purpose and lot of people who fall for it.

As for my comments, if they're one-sided, it's partly because I'm discussing the false attacks against him, not every Chavez issue. If someone posts "Chavez killed all the puppies in Venezuela", my response might be "no, he didn't", not "no, he didn't, but I oppose his 2004 action on an unrelated matter."

Craig, I normally agree with you on a lot of things political, but you are pretty out there when it comes to Chavez. Look at the article, he isn't even citing the coup of seven years ago in trying to take the station down, but their response during a recent earthquake in criticizing the government's response. It isn't a speech issue, but a freedom of the press issue (whether or not Venezuela officially gaurantees this I don't know). It is an excuse to silence dissent, plain and simple. It doesn't matter if x% of stations were owned by the elite back when the coup occurred.

I'm glad we often agree; but we may disagree on Chavez overall, though again, I'm not too far from the specifics you list. This particula incident does seem excessive to me - but it's easy to forget, again, the situation Chavez is in. People tend to equate the situation elsewhere to what they're familiar with, so Chavez going after a network is seen as the same as our President going after the New York Times, and simply a dictatorial attack on free speech.

Imagine the KKK owning 95% of our media, and filling it with constant attacks, many false, against Obama. We'd probably say that it's a terrible situaton in terms of the lack of balance, that we should try to fix, but that it's still a free speech issue. But if you add in the KKK who own the stations participating in a coup that took Obama out of the White House at gunpoint, and Obama left them on the air for seven years and then tried to use a regulatory procedure to take their license, you might not see Obama as terribly wrong.

If our media was filled with nothig but anti-Obama propaganda except for PBS, your standards for the appropriate actions might change a little.

In short, I don't care for Chavez abusing this law to go after this station *if* that's what he does - we don't know if he will yet - but his actions in context have not begun to justify the attacks in this thread. Let's talk Castro - Castro doesn't seem to allow any real opposition media, much less a class of oligarchs who run 95% of the media and attack him constantly, and if he did and they removed him in a coup, they'd have been shot fast. Chavez's response the last seven years is a far cry from that.

I normally rail against monied interests here in the US. Hell, issues related to social mobility and economic justice are the most important to me in my politics (especially the growing gap between rich and poor). The wealthy (Murdoch, etc) do have a stranglehold on our politics, our airwaves, and all aspects of our government. YOU are the liar in saying that I support these things in ANY country. Take the wool off of your eyes and see Chavez for what he is.

I take great offense to your next to last sentence, but I'll ask you to retract it in light of the fact that you misunderstood what I said. I can see why you would be offended by what you think I said. My statements were about right-wingers - and I tried to separate what I was saying about them versus asking you whether you agreed with them or not. It appears you did not read it that way and thought I said you hold their positions. I accept your statement on your postion, I'm glad to hear it, and ask you to withdraw your comment as a result.

As for Chavez - I'm not saying that he may not become a terrible dictator - but it seems to me that the lack of understanding of his precarious position is naive and needed to understand his situation and the measures that might be needed. I'm not talking about that phrase the way Castro might use it to justify a lot of political prisoners that was a big excess to create a dictatorship, but rather lesser measures, such as when the US corporations that entirely ran his oil infrastructure left and refused to give him the passwords in an effort to cause economic disruption that might get him overthrown, he did what he had to in terms of nationalizing the oil industry and some seizure of the infrastructure.

If you've never seen it, there's a documentary you can watch online called "The Revolution Will Not Be Televised" that helps show the circumstances he's in better.

My support for Chavez is for the extent to which he's trying to move the country from a terrible oligarchy with extreme concentration of wealth - a few hundred families owing if I recall 90% or 95% of the land, much of it unused, to an extent where even JFK reportedly recommended the land reform program Chavez adopted - a country that terribly neglected the poor and had a high level of political corruption by the oligarchy - to a nation more like, well, the US, in having SOME better democracy and egalitarianism.

I'm wary of Chavez - his strong leadership is not a big leap from 'tyrant', but I give him credit for repeatedly choosing democracy over dictatorship.

I think he's gone a bit far at times, but when you look at his precarious environment - come on, you need to understand he's up against extreme corrupt power.

Is it better if his situation goes like Allende's, and he's fondly remembered by the left before he was killed and replaced by a right-wing dictatorship? Do you want that?

If Chavez turns into Castro, I'll oppose him. Until then, I'll correct the ignorance and lies of the right about Chavez - and criticize Chavez as appropriate.

Thats the beauty of your position.. if you are wrong you can just say 'oops' and move on. The rest of us see that your position and Chavez's is wrong NOW and we are calling it out. You'll say oops and 1000's could be dead or more and a country in complete ruines..
 

cubby1223

Lifer
May 24, 2004
13,518
42
86
Originally posted by: Craig234
My support for Chavez is for the extent to which he's trying to move the country from a terrible oligarchy with extreme concentration of wealth

Ah yes, with you it's _always_ about "the evil rich right-wingers" who apparently all care only about hoarding wealth :roll:
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
Originally posted by: Double Trouble
I lived an hour away from Caracas for 16 years. It's very very sad to see the people of Venezuela subjected to this. Make no mistake about it. Chavez is a nut, and a dangerous one at that. The notion that he was in any way "elected" is about as laughable as when Saddam was "elected". I have friends who live there, and they've told me that people who dare oppose the dictator tend to go "missing", and that virtually nobody dares speak out against him. He's consolidated power in the government by systematically removing people who don't show 100% loyalty to Chavez from power positions and replacing them with Chavez cronies. Chavez and his henchmen have gotten more brazen. If any anyone opposes him in any way or is even remotely critical, their business gets shut down, or they lose their jobs, or the business loses contracts etc.

I'm generally opposed to the US meddling in other countries' affairs, but in the case of Chavez, I would not be opposed to the US having a sniper tap that madman in the head once. At the very least, provide a lot of financial, logistical and intelligence report for the resistance under the regime.

It's not about Chavez being pro or anti the US and it's policies. Heck, when it comes down to it, I agree with him on some of his positions towards multinational companies taking advantage of countries and their resources. This is a madman who has destroyed a country and is on his way to using petro-dollars to destroy a continent. He needs to be stopped.

As the article I posted said, the situation is 'highly polarized'. The wealthy class in Venezuela - the ones Americans are by far most likely to encoutner - is *passionately* against Chavez. Passionately enough that they'd feel they were'patriots' by organizing a coup. It's not uncommon for a privileged class to think it's some sort of benevolent, deserving group and those who oppose them are monsters.

Kim John Il I suspect is a madman. Chavez - you need to show me the evidence because I don't see it. His 'smell of sulfur' remark against Bush - who's the madman, the man who made that attacking joke or the man who approved to violently remove the elected government trying to help the poor in Venezuela? Handing Obama a book on the history of the oppression of South American nations. Oh, the craziness!

I respect your knowing the area - but question whether you have the same disease as the ex-patrio Cubans who are not just anti-Castro but nutty, radically anti-Castro.

To the extent that Chavez is making radical changes to the government to build up a new system that can resist the oligarchy who owns nearly all the wealth - OUTSTANDING, just as I'd approve of radical change to the Wall Street corruption and how they 'own Congress'. To the extent that Chavez is crossing that line and creating a political organization that is more corruptly monopolistic - like that of China or the USSR or Castro - than democratic, I very much oppose him.

I find your call for assassnation immoral on its face, and in addition immoral in the effect it would have of returning to the previous days of terrible oligarchy in Venezuela.

You appear not to give the first crap about 'real' democracy there nor the poor.

Admittedly, the poor have not been helped as much as I'd like; the policies have not fully matched Chavez's rhetoric, IMO.

Neither have Obama's but do you call for shooting him too?
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
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350
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Double Trouble, by the way, I have been toying with the idea of a trip to Venezuela so I can see first-hand the situation, hear from the people there, poor and not so poor.

(I guess I sound a bit like Sean Penn doing that sort of thing - something he does that I like and see as good citizenship).

If you are right that it's a Castro-like culturs of government oppression - I'd be glad to know that and happy to say so and join opponents of Chavez. Haven't decided, though.
 

Lanyap

Elite Member
Dec 23, 2000
8,295
2,391
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I vote Craig234 move to Venezuela for a year and then come back and tell us all about it. All in favor, say aye.


 

MovingTarget

Diamond Member
Jun 22, 2003
9,002
115
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Originally posted by: Lanyap
I vote Craig234 move to Venezuela for a year and then come back and tell us all about it. All in favor, say aye.

RossMAN??? Is that you? :p

I wouldn't say that, but I do support his visiting Venezuela like he says he wants to. I know many people from there or that have visited there (for various reasons), and from what I've gathered it really is a nice place to see regardless of where you stand politically.
 

Nebor

Lifer
Jun 24, 2003
29,582
12
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Originally posted by: Craig234
Double Trouble, by the way, I have been toying with the idea of a trip to Venezuela so I can see first-hand the situation, hear from the people there, poor and not so poor.

(I guess I sound a bit like Sean Penn doing that sort of thing - something he does that I like and see as good citizenship).

If you are right that it's a Castro-like culturs of government oppression - I'd be glad to know that and happy to say so and join opponents of Chavez. Haven't decided, though.

Sean Penn is a tool. I legitimately hope he gets killed during his showboating antics. Soon.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
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Originally posted by: Nebor
Sean Penn is a tool. I legitimately hope he gets killed during his showboating antics. Soon.

That's because you are a clueless scumbag. You have thousands of such views as a result. Clueless scumbags tend to want to kill what they don't understand.

Which is not entirely unlike Penn's last character in "Milk" some people didn't mind a gay politician getting killed. You caused him to get a free plug, Nebor. Available now on DVD.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
111,978
31,534
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Originally posted by: Craig234
The righties again show their radical lack of respect for the law, as they are in favor of tv stations participating in a coup against the elected government, and leap to conclusions.

We all claim to support 'legitimate' freedom of speech - but the righties had not a word of concern about how in Venezuela all the stations except the one state channel were owned by the wealthy oligarchy and put out propganda on their behalf - no concern about the lack of political power and the lack of any channels for the rest of the country.

But there are limits to the role of the media. I don't require them to be accurate of fair in terms of the state regulating them - but assisting a coup against democracy is over the line.

Not that the righties could care less about democracy there. Not that the righties could care less about the large majority of people there outside of the oligarchy.

As far as the invesigation I don't have the evidence I'd need to reach a conclusion. Chavez might be right or wrong on this, dependinig on the law and the statin's actions.

Funny how the righties in contrast are thrilled to reach a concludion without the evidence.

dude.

I lean left and all.....




but






WTF?

:confused:
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
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Originally posted by: zinfamous
WTF?

What specifically are you 'WTF' about? I can't tell a thing from your post - it doesn't say anything.

Cliffs of my post:

Freedom of speech by opposition to government: good
Participating in a coup to overthrow left-wing leader to protect oligarchy: bad
Whether Chavez's investigation into this station is a tyrannical witch hunt: lack data
 

XMan

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
12,513
49
91
Originally posted by: Craig234
Originally posted by: zinfamous
WTF?

What specifically are you 'WTF' about? I can't tell a thing from your post - it doesn't say anything.

Cliffs of my post:

Freedom of speech by opposition to government: good
Participating in a coup to overthrow left-wing leader to protect oligarchy: bad
Whether Chavez's investigation into this station is a tyrannical witch hunt: lack data

Aha, the truth comes out.

So by that explanation, had Bush become a tyrant akin to Chavez, and CNN had been airing stories attempting to rouse the populace against him, he could rightly have shut them down. Because, hey, he was democratically elected, right?

Whatever happened to "dissent is patriotic" a la that Clinton speech? Is it only when a righty is in charge, Craig?
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
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Originally posted by: XMan
Originally posted by: Craig234
Originally posted by: zinfamous
WTF?

What specifically are you 'WTF' about? I can't tell a thing from your post - it doesn't say anything.

Cliffs of my post:

Freedom of speech by opposition to government: good
Participating in a coup to overthrow left-wing leader to protect oligarchy: bad
Whether Chavez's investigation into this station is a tyrannical witch hunt: lack data

Aha, the truth comes out.

But not from your post.

So by that explanation, had Bush become a tyrant akin to Chavez, and CNN had been airing stories attempting to rouse the populace against him, he could rightly have shut them down. Because, hey, he was democratically elected, right?

Whatever happened to "dissent is patriotic" a la that Clinton speech? Is it only when a righty is in charge, Craig?

You got it wrong. "left-wing" in the phrase above is because it's describing this particular situation; secondarily, right-wing leaders are not the enemies of the oligarchies.

You are trying to make a point where there isn't one to be made. Overthrowing the democratically elected leader in a violent coup is a bad idea except in awfully extreme circumstances (I did not support the violent overthrow of Bush, even though in my opinion in his first term he was not the legitimately elected leader), and even less so in a foreign-backed coup. That's the relevant point, not 'left-wing' or 'right-wing'. Overthrowing either might make some sense if they're not elected and or they're tyrants, like Pinochet.

And you misrepresent the situation *yet again*. If CNN *participated in a coup that marched Bush out of the White House at gunpoint*, you can bet the owner and the network would pay a price when the public forced his return to power. You misrepresent it as 'just airing some stories attempting to rouse the public', which is a complete lie as a descrition of what happened. That could simply be the stories they*did* run, covered by free speech. I don't recall their getting Bush removed in a coup.
 

Double Trouble

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
9,270
103
106
Originally posted by: Craig234
Originally posted by: Double Trouble
I lived an hour away from Caracas for 16 years. It's very very sad to see the people of Venezuela subjected to this. Make no mistake about it. Chavez is a nut, and a dangerous one at that. The notion that he was in any way "elected" is about as laughable as when Saddam was "elected". I have friends who live there, and they've told me that people who dare oppose the dictator tend to go "missing", and that virtually nobody dares speak out against him. He's consolidated power in the government by systematically removing people who don't show 100% loyalty to Chavez from power positions and replacing them with Chavez cronies. Chavez and his henchmen have gotten more brazen. If any anyone opposes him in any way or is even remotely critical, their business gets shut down, or they lose their jobs, or the business loses contracts etc.

I'm generally opposed to the US meddling in other countries' affairs, but in the case of Chavez, I would not be opposed to the US having a sniper tap that madman in the head once. At the very least, provide a lot of financial, logistical and intelligence report for the resistance under the regime.

It's not about Chavez being pro or anti the US and it's policies. Heck, when it comes down to it, I agree with him on some of his positions towards multinational companies taking advantage of countries and their resources. This is a madman who has destroyed a country and is on his way to using petro-dollars to destroy a continent. He needs to be stopped.

As the article I posted said, the situation is 'highly polarized'. The wealthy class in Venezuela - the ones Americans are by far most likely to encoutner - is *passionately* against Chavez. Passionately enough that they'd feel they were'patriots' by organizing a coup. It's not uncommon for a privileged class to think it's some sort of benevolent, deserving group and those who oppose them are monsters.

Uhhhh... "the ones Americans are most likely to encounter". I'm not American, I'm from that area, born and raised. I'm not a tourist who happens to "encounter" a few rich people angry because they don't like someone's policies. The people I know once were part of the middle class who now struggle to put food on the table. The really wealthy have either a) long since left the country with their wealth or b) joined Chavez by donating heavily to his cronies to avoid problems. If you are wealthy and support Chavez, you likely live a big house on the outskirts of a major city, with a big wall around the property and a bunch of armed guards. If you are against him, you live in fear of the door getting kicked in any night and having you or your family members go to prison for some bogus "crime".

To the extent that Chavez is making radical changes to the government to build up a new system that can resist the oligarchy who owns nearly all the wealth - OUTSTANDING, just as I'd approve of radical change to the Wall Street corruption and how they 'own Congress'.

Spoken like someone who has no idea of what is going on in Venezuela. This is not a "right vs left", "liberal vs conservative" type issue like what you see here in the US. This is not "you liberals want to raise my taxes!" vs "you right wingers want to hoard the wealth and screw the poor". This is a madman taking complete power of a country, murdering and imprisoning those who oppose him, taking the wealth from those who don't support him and taking it for himself, doling out just enough to the population to keep them believing he's on their side. A man willing to literally shut down the entire free press in the country to achieve his status of unchallenged ruler.

The closest I can think of when it comes to Chavez is Mugabe and what he's done in Zimbabwe. And, just like Mugabe in Zimbabwe, Chavez is running Venezuela into the ground. Venezuela used to be one of the most prosperous countries in south america. Sure, wealth distribution was bad, much like in other third world countries, but it was a net exporter of food, energy, expertise, and it had a very good health care system (including good dentistry at a very low rate). Now, the country has to import everything, including staples like rice and wheat, people are on the verge of starving, and the only thing keeping the country from being Zimbabwe is the fact that it gets billions in petro-dollars to keep it afloat.

Whether Chavez's investigation into this station is a tyrannical witch hunt: lack data

You could say that when he "investigated" (aka, shut down) one tv station, if it was an isolated incident. However, he's either shut down or is in the process of shutting down...err.... "investigating" EVERY newspaper, radio station and TV station in the country not in 100% lockstep with him. How can any rational person have any doubt that he's simply destroying the free press?

Silence press. Check.
Change terms of constitution removing term limits. Check.
Imprisoning political opponents. Check.
Taking over any business that doesn't do exactly what he wants them to do. Check.

There can't be very many items on the "dictatorship for dummies" book checklist he hasn't gotten to yet. Wake up man, this is not political games like democrats/republicans, this is a whole other world.

Oh, and as for a trip down to Venezuela --- don't even think about it. It's a very dangerous place right now. Very sad.

 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
Originally posted by: Double Trouble

Uhhhh... "the ones Americans are most likely to encounter". I'm not American, I'm from that area, born and raised. I'm not a tourist who happens to "encounter" a few rich people angry because they don't like someone's policies. The people I know once were part of the middle class who now struggle to put food on the table. The really wealthy have either a) long since left the country with their wealth or b) joined Chavez by donating heavily to his cronies to avoid problems. If you are wealthy and support Chavez, you likely live a big house on the outskirts of a major city, with a big wall around the property and a bunch of armed guards. If you are against him, you live in fear of the door getting kicked in any night and having you or your family members go to prison for some bogus "crime".

The comment wasn't aimed at you; in a number of discussions here, people (American) have 'met a few Venezuelans' and don't always understand that point.

I appreciate your input as someone who has first-hand experience - but I have to say I'm a bit skeptical ofyour picture that all the very wealthy people there who are not Chavez supporters are in nightly fear of being kidnapped by the government to prison. Credible links supporting how bad you describe that would be nice. If you're exaggerating greatly - it raises the question why?

Your reports of the Middle class having difficulty getting food are very alarming - if accurate. Again, they're so shrill that supporting links that's the typical situation would help.

To the extent that Chavez is making radical changes to the government to build up a new system that can resist the oligarchy who owns nearly all the wealth - OUTSTANDING, just as I'd approve of radical change to the Wall Street corruption and how they 'own Congress'.

Spoken like someone who has no idea of what is going on in Venezuela. This is not a "right vs left", "liberal vs conservative" type issue like what you see here in the US. This is not "you liberals want to raise my taxes!" vs "you right wingers want to hoard the wealth and screw the poor". This is a madman taking complete power of a country, murdering and imprisoning those who oppose him, taking the wealth from those who don't support him and taking it for himself, doling out just enough to the population to keep them believing he's on their side. A man willing to literally shut down the entire free press in the country to achieve his status of unchallenged ruler.

Same as above. *If* your description were accurate, there'd be great cause for opposition. LInks to these massive Chavez murders of all his opponents?

Funny how he 'shuts down the free press of the country' while all but one tv station operated strongly against him up to the coup, only one was moved off the air to the internet since the coup, and nearly every newspaper is still owned by the same oligarchy and attacking him - the man you say wants to shut all the press down seems to have the most opposition of any leader in the region. Can you show me even a few major media outlets not owned by the oligarchy?

The closest I can think of when it comes to Chavez is Mugabe and what he's done in Zimbabwe. And, just like Mugabe in Zimbabwe, Chavez is running Venezuela into the ground. Venezuela used to be one of the most prosperous countries in south america. Sure, wealth distribution was bad, much like in other third world countries, but it was a net exporter of food, energy, expertise, and it had a very good health care system (including good dentistry at a very low rate). Now, the country has to import everything, including staples like rice and wheat, people are on the verge of starving, and the only thing keeping the country from being Zimbabwe is the fact that it gets billions in petro-dollars to keep it afloat.

There's a challenge to trying to defy the 'rulers of the universe' western powers from exploiting your country. I'm interested in the details of how people are doing. I'm ok with some price for the goas he'sset in reducing the foreign domination of such things as how the US completely operated the oil systems, and his transferring it to Venezuelan hands even while that has years needed to get people trained and such. Where he's making mistakes i the economy - we can criticize him.

You again sound so extremely shrill - Mugabe, Zimbabwe.

I can believe he's not doing that well at a lot of policies - he's a military guy and a sort of thug personality, not an economist.

Even you acknowledge there are real problems with the concentration of wealth there - it's very difficult to get any improvement on that. That's where I'm somewhat tolerant on him.

Whether Chavez's investigation into this station is a tyrannical witch hunt: lack data

You could say that when he "investigated" (aka, shut down) one tv station, if it was an isolated incident. However, he's either shut down or is in the process of shutting down...err.... "investigating" EVERY newspaper, radio station and TV station in the country not in 100% lockstep with him. How can any rational person have any doubt that he's simply destroying the free press?

Silence press. Check.

By not seeing any reports of what you are saying. *If* he's doing what you say - shutting down every media outlet not cowtowing to his line - I'm against that.

Provide the credible links saying that's the case. What changed that he's now doing that after 9 years of their operating?

Change terms of constitution removing term limits. Check.

You can call Reagan and Clinton dictators then for supporting the repeal of the 21st amendment. The voters approved this measure, which is an important fact.

Imprisoning political opponents. Check.
Taking over any business that doesn't do exactly what he wants them to do. Check.

That's like the fifth time I need to say you sound shrill and I'm dubious about the extreme comment, 'take over any business that doesn't do exactly what he says'.

Yes, he's pushing socialism and yes, he's nationalizing some things. That's a far cry from your comment, which sounds exaggerated.

There can't be very many items on the "dictatorship for dummies" book checklist he hasn't gotten to yet. Wake up man, this is not political games like democrats/republicans, this is a whole other world.

Oh, and as for a trip down to Venezuela --- don't even think about it. It's a very dangerous place right now. Very sad.

There are all kinds of 'dictatorship' things I haven't seen him do, but many contradict your claims, so notmuch point in going into that. *If* you are right, I'd agree.

Thanks for the concern on the trip - I just read the State Department advisory and travel is freely allowed but they do have clear warnings on the crime levels.

Let's summarize. My main issue is the terrible concentration of wealth, and the exploitation by foreign corporations. It's very hard to get any change on those problems, and so I'm glad to see someone who has made some. I'm open to criticizing Chavez and even opposing his presidency in spite of those things, if the evidence is there. My impression is that he does have a lot of bad policies, and a lot of problems with his governance, and a very politicized government.

You say far more than that, and my concerns will rise as the evidence does for what you claim.

I may have some more tolerance than some others for his problems because I recognize the challenge in moving away from the corruption of oligarchy and foreign business.

It doesn't mean I don't recognize problems, some big ones, or that I'm not interested in information if they're worse than I've heard.

Most of what I see against him appears the same sort of nonsensical and ill-informed nonsense we see from the right on a lot of issues. I don't put you in the same category - but on the other hand, your attacks are so strong, that other issues arise where I'd like more evidence to support your claims.