Laptops for people who aren't idiots? Where did all the useful features go?

[reallyscrued]

Some of your complaints don't make much sense to me.
1) Why not use a headset with a combination headphone/mic port? Think iPhone.

Edit: Why not just find a laptop with numerous ports so a new laptop isn't a freaking downgrade? My M1330 has 3 audio connectors: 2 headphones out, one mic in. That's right, I can have two people connect their headphones to my laptop without even needing a splitter. How sick is that? Think: stupid Apple for dumbing down features for the sake of cost cutting but increasing a perceived level of sleekness that I don't and you shouldn't care about.

2) A displayport++ will do VGA with a cheap cable (i.e. no converter).

That's awesome, but no dual monitor setup. It's certainly an option though.

3) Most laptops are cool and quiet due to Ivy Bridge. Just stay away from the thinnest

Thanks for the advice; I'd be thoroughly satisfied with my friends' IB laptop's heat output. That's not an issue, but adding a dedicated graphics solution always raises temps 10 degrees Celcius at idle and decreases battery life; as a non-mobile gamer, that's a double whammy. A core i7 is fine, but finding a laptop with a high end proc and low end graphics is an odd combination; when I said I preferred an i3/i5, I was simply trying to being realistic.

4) I'd bite the bullet and get used to island style keys. Even the Thinkpad line drank the Kool-aid. They get the job done fine.

F that. and no they don't. They can keep their damn Kool-aid.

I'd simply not buy one of those keyboard layouts out of sheer principle; I'm going to be the last one to add another sale to their statistics of laptops sold with those style keyboards.

You'll have to take traditional keys from me by prying them from my cold, lifeless hands, a scenario that seems all too plausible at this point.

A Lenovo w520 w/ the FullHD screen may be worth looking at.

Thanks for the suggestion, that looks like it has a great keyboard. If I can scoop one of these up or the X220, I probably will.


You heard it here first folks, Lenovo makes the last batch of laptops that are worth a damn.

 

[tuxberg]

You heard it here first folks, Lenovo makes the last batch of laptops that are worth a damn.

*made the last batch. The Current generation of thinkpads might as well be called thinkbooks. Island keyboards and an emphasis on weight/profile over function is going to be the ruin of Lenovo.

I've got a small museum full of my retired thinkpads, but my most recent purchase was an hp elitebook and my next will likely be a fujitsu convertible.

 

[dave_the_nerd]

Edit: Why not just find a laptop with numerous ports so a new laptop isn't a freaking downgrade? My M1330 has 3 audio connectors: 2 headphones out, one mic in. That's right, I can have two people connect their headphones to my laptop without even needing a splitter. How sick is that? Think: stupid Apple for dumbing down features for the sake of cost cutting but increasing a perceived level of sleekness that I don't and you shouldn't care about.

Don't blame Apple for Lenovo's stupid mistakes. They do plenty of weird crap that other people are smart enough not to emulate.

Fewer ports = less board space = lower manufacturing costs = higher profits.

No company is going to throw features onto a mainstream laptop that they think more than X% of their customer base won't need.

 

[reallyscrued]

*made the last batch. The Current generation of thinkpads might as well be called thinkbooks. Island keyboards and an emphasis on weight/profile over function is going to be the ruin of Lenovo.

I've got a small museum full of my retired thinkpads, but my most recent purchase was an hp elitebook and my next will likely be a fujitsu convertible.

It appears your correction is valid; all of the new thinkpads use the new keyboard design.

Glad I/we aren't the only ones who hate it.

Article on the change: http://cnet.co/JjFwGQ

Lenovo's own blog has an article on "Why you should give into the change". Thanks Lenovo. The comments are priceless.

http://lnv.gy/Mk1mSA

Lenovo's forums has a thread on it, some worthwhile reading there, apparently the chicklet style isn't the worst thing after all:

They got rid of a whole row of buttons and moved around the print scrn, home, del, end, page up/dn, and that alternate click button key.

The feature in the bios is disabled to switch ctrl and Fn keys (Lenovo's Fn key is at the very bottom, left corner, where you expect ctrl to be)

F'ing fantastic.

Don't blame Apple for Lenovo's stupid mistakes. They do plenty of weird crap that other people are smart enough not to emulate.

Fewer ports = less board space = lower manufacturing costs = higher profits.

No company is going to throw features onto a mainstream laptop that they think more than X% of their customer base won't need.

That's terrific man...except they ALL emulated this. Apple seems fine to blame here, if only a little. I wish they never popularized this of all things. There is not one single laptop with a regular keyboard on the market now it seems. Even 'business' machines have these godforsaken things.

Who said anything about throwing features into a mainstream laptop? I don't want new "features". Give me the OPTION to buy one product from your line with the traditional style keys.

Wanna turn this into a business problem? Fine. Do a survey/study, find out how much demand there is for X feature, build one, obscure line with that X feature in proportion to how much demand you expect there to be.

How about ONE freaking laptop having the old style keyboard?

More ports costing your manufacturing money? Charge me extra then! I'll gladly pay extra for a VGA and extra Mic port and skip out on your ridiculously priced RAM upgrades.

This is what happens when a bunch of MBAs start dictating design features, I swear.

 

[roedtogsvart]

Thinkpad X220. Get it with the IPS screen. Best laptop I've ever owned. The X230 keyboard is supposed to be surprisingly good but if you want the classic Thinkpad caps try to find an X220.

 

[nipplefish]

Thinkpad X220. Get it with the IPS screen. Best laptop I've ever owned. The X230 keyboard is supposed to be surprisingly good but if you want the classic Thinkpad caps try to find an X220.

This right here. I went from an XPS M1330 to an X220 and it's the best computer decision I've ever made. It's light, portable, and you can barely tell it's on (unlike the M1330, where the burns on your thighs let you know pretty quickly). Definitely add an MSATA drive.

 

[Ayah]

I've got an X220 as well. Powerhouse with 160Wh of battery life (with slice battery).
It's got the size of an ultraportable, but uses 35W processors. Excellent for computations (matlab/mathematica) and the IPS screen calibrates/views nicely.

You can swap the function of the FN and ctrl key in windoze for sanity's sake on it.

I'm still kind of confused as to why you'd need/want a webcam.

 

[marcplante]

I'm typing on a dell latitude e5520 that has a full key keyboard. I think you can even get it with a lit keyboard which helps for evening low light sofa work. It has reasonable power and battery life and seems to do the trick. I'm a trackpoint fan and would also point you back to Lenovo Thinkpads.

Chiclets arent' that bad, though there are differeent implementations. Go to a larger retailer and test drive. Lenovos are larger IIRC

 

[kevinsbane]

Yeah, those latitudes use a combination traditional style/chickelet style keyboards which I abhor. Honestly, it looks like they share every aspect of the Inspiron line, what's the point of getting the "business class" machine from Dell now anyway? In attempts at cost-cutting, it looks like they share a lot of the same parts, including keyboards.

Man, I just remembered another feature I'd be giving up if the laptop has simply one HDMI out

http://bit.ly/soXT3C



Yeah, the T410 seems to be the winner here.

or the X220

http://amzn.to/143DHhD

Man, just look at that keyboard. I bet the distance of those key throws will be perfect. IPS screen, i7 proc, 9 cell battery, no fancy vid card, VGA plus displayport out, usb3.0...eSATA? jeezus...this is like a mirage. Now that's a freaking business machine. I'd lose a little bit of screen real estate but that's an acceptable loss.

No USB 3 unless you get an i7 version of the X220.

That being said, the X230's keyboard is pretty good compared to the X220; I prefer the X220's, but the X230 isn't half bad. I would consider it a fair trade to move to an X230; I lose out a bit on the keyboard, but gain USB3.0, HD 4000, Ivy Bridge and triple screen support.

Don't go for the T410; you miss out on Sandy Bridge which makes a huge difference in power consumption. The T/W/X "x20" series are the ones you should look for in a Thinkpad, if you absolutely cannot stand the new keyboard (although I suggest trying to find one in a store to try it first; the new T430 keyboard is still better than old-style keyboards from any other company).

The feature in the bios is disabled to switch ctrl and Fn keys (Lenovo's Fn key is at the very bottom, left corner, where you expect ctrl to be)

The Fn/Ctrl option still exists in BIOS; but you do have to check it on the first time you start up the computer.

My X220 hits almost of your points - it's got VGA, DisplayPort (DP++), removable battery, gigabit RJ-45 jack, HD3000 graphics, webcam, headphone jack, user removeable battery, it's quiet (with the update; my system is passive 90% of the time)

Some bonuses - It's extremely portable, it's got a great IPS screen, you can run dual drives with it, it's relatively light, it's got a TrackPoint (amazing, especially if you type a LOT which it seems you do), it's pretty tough, it has long battery life, it's got a spill-resistant keyboard, and even docking stations if you want them.

The only thing it's missing from your list? It's got an integrated headphone/mic jack, which means you might need a new pair of headphones/mic or an adapter or using the dual mics of the laptop itself.

 

[sze5003]

I had an xps 1530 and it was great. Lasted about 6 years and I could do all my projects and code on there. Then I tried a mac book pro and I realized I never used it much and didn't code on it anymore since my pc at work was the only place I could do so.

I sold the MacBook and just built a desktop. I've looked at stores like you and god help me if I ever decide to buy another laptop.

If I had to I would go for the Dell business models or a Lenovo. Maybe Sony too they are decent.

 

[tuxberg]

Eitebooks are the last of the business class I would bother with. Dell puts out a good Latitude now and again, but on the whole they're much harder to service than elitebooks. Wouldn't touch any new lenovo with a 10-foot pole, frankly. They're crashing the build quality of thinkpads and they plummet another notch every season.

 

[reallyscrued]

Eitebooks are the last of the business class I would bother with. Dell puts out a good Latitude now and again, but on the whole they're much harder to service than elitebooks. Wouldn't touch any new lenovo with a 10-foot pole, frankly. They're crashing the build quality of thinkpads and they plummet another notch every season.

Thanks for bringing this to my attention, I never knew this line of laptops. I'm digging the design, all magnesium, quick access panel, it's a bit thick but that doesn't scare me away. Damn, that looks like the most solid laptop aside from a Toughbook.

I think this would be my go-to laptop if I ever embraced chicklet keyboards. I'd really like a chance to type on one of these to feel it out.

Awesome list of features, webcam, mic-in, vga and display port out..tempting...

No USB 3 unless you get an i7 version of the X220.

That being said, the X230's keyboard is pretty good compared to the X220; I prefer the X220's, but the X230 isn't half bad. I would consider it a fair trade to move to an X230; I lose out a bit on the keyboard, but gain USB3.0, HD 4000, Ivy Bridge and triple screen support.

Don't go for the T410; you miss out on Sandy Bridge which makes a huge difference in power consumption. The T/W/X "x20" series are the ones you should look for in a Thinkpad, if you absolutely cannot stand the new keyboard (although I suggest trying to find one in a store to try it first; the new T430 keyboard is still better than old-style keyboards from any other company).

The Fn/Ctrl option still exists in BIOS; but you do have to check it on the first time you start up the computer.

My X220 hits almost of your points - it's got VGA, DisplayPort (DP++), removable battery, gigabit RJ-45 jack, HD3000 graphics, webcam, headphone jack, user removeable battery, it's quiet (with the update; my system is passive 90% of the time)

Some bonuses - It's extremely portable, it's got a great IPS screen, you can run dual drives with it, it's relatively light, it's got a TrackPoint (amazing, especially if you type a LOT which it seems you do), it's pretty tough, it has long battery life, it's got a spill-resistant keyboard, and even docking stations if you want them.

The only thing it's missing from your list? It's got an integrated headphone/mic jack, which means you might need a new pair of headphones/mic or an adapter or using the dual mics of the laptop itself.

You pretty much sold me on this laptop. I'll scratch the T410 off my list. I'm willing to live with a microphone adapter. How important is the difference between Sandy Bridge and Ivy Bridge? Do you notice any build quality issues? Seems it has a low score on Amazon because of it (although I understand people who have a bad experience with a product are more likely to review it, but it seems to come up quite a bit).

 

[tuxberg]

I'd steer clear of sandy, imho, as they run notably hotter than ivy and you'll hardly find anyone willing to sell a *20 series at a good discount over ivy anyway.

 

[holden j caufield]

we have a bunch of w520s at work and they work great. I really like the thinkpad keyboards and am not pleased with the w530 keyboards. My t61p is still probably one of the best laptops I've used.

 

[kevinsbane]

I'd steer clear of sandy, imho, as they run notably hotter than ivy and you'll hardly find anyone willing to sell a *20 series at a good discount over ivy anyway.

For sure, Ivy's a bonus over Sandy, but for his use? I don't think it'll matter much.

Besides of which, the T/W/X x20 series are the only ones with a good modern laptop processor+platform (and the associated battery life benefits) that still have the old style keyboard.

To be honest OP, if I were you, I'd suck it up and go for a x230 or T430 (T430 if you want more screen resolution; screen quality itself is worse though) instead of the older SB based X220/T420. I'd be new anyways to the Thinkpad keyboard, and if I have to adjust to a different keyboard, I might as well do the adjustment on to the island style. Either I'd be upgrading from a Dell keyboard to the best laptop keyboard available (x220), or I'd be upgrading to the second best laptop keyboard around (x230). Either is still an upgrade in terms of keyboard choice. And in the process get slightly better working battery life, slightly more computing power, triple screen support and native USB3 (without needing the i7 option).

 

[reallyscrued]

To be honest OP, if I were you, I'd suck it up and go for a x230 or T430 (T430 if you want more screen resolution; screen quality itself is worse though) instead of the older SB based X220/T420. I'd be new anyways to the Thinkpad keyboard, and if I have to adjust to a different keyboard, I might as well do the adjustment on to the island style. Either I'd be upgrading from a Dell keyboard to the best laptop keyboard available (x220), or I'd be upgrading to the second best laptop keyboard around (x230). Either is still an upgrade in terms of keyboard choice. And in the process get slightly better working battery life, slightly more computing power, triple screen support and native USB3 (without needing the i7 option).

Thanks for putting that into perspective. Seems like the x230 really wins out in overall features, plus it's in active production so I can customize them quite a bit. Triple screen support would be boobs.

 

[Throckmorton]

It sounds like you've never used a chiclet keyboard. They're BETTER than the old style ones

 

[Sleepingforest]

It sounds like you've never used a chiclet keyboard. They're BETTER than the old style ones

I've used both and strongly disagree. I think it's more of a "to each his own" sort of business. It's not that hard to go into a store and type out a few sentences (or go to the nearest friend with a modern laptop), so I'm sure he's actually tried one.

For those used to full keyboards, Chiclets are awful. The reach between keys is very different, and the actual depth of each key is very different as well. Typing for seriously long periods of time is very difficult for me on chiclet keyboards (my hands cramp and hurt) while it is very stress-free on my full keyboard.

 

[holden j caufield]

for me the dual core i7 runs much cooler than the quads i7 laptops we have. I'd look into that option as I get over 7 hours on a w520 which is pretty amazing considering it's a mobile workstation. What resolution is the x220. I've heard great things about them but I still miss 1920 x 1200 but 1920 x 1080 is my only option now. 1600 x 900 isn't very useful for my purposes.

 

[jsnell]

I've used both and strongly disagree. I think it's more of a "to each his own" sort of business. It's not that hard to go into a store and type out a few sentences (or go to the nearest friend with a modern laptop), so I'm sure he's actually tried one.

For those used to full keyboards, Chiclets are awful. The reach between keys is very different, and the actual depth of each key is very different as well. Typing for seriously long periods of time is very difficult for me on chiclet keyboards (my hands cramp and hurt) while it is very stress-free on my full keyboard.

A distinction needs to be made between the typical chiclet design and the one used in the new Thinkpads. The contoured keys alone make a huge difference to the bizarre flat design that literally every other manufacturer seems to use. The travel and general feel is also indistinguishable from the classic Thinkpad keys. The main downside of the new keyboard design is the layout.

 

[reallyscrued]

It sounds like you've never used a chiclet keyboard. They're BETTER than the old style ones

...I've used chicklet keyboards.

It sounds like you've never used a traditional keyboard. They're BETTER than the new style ones.

 

[Turbonium]

It sounds like you've never used a chiclet keyboard. They're BETTER than the old style ones

Yea, they're prettier, aren't they.

If that.