LAPD officers kill man holding baby when he opens fire; baby dies

[OutHouse]

yes, when there is a hostage. if he was alone that would be a different story.

 

[BigJ]

Originally posted by: Citrix
yes, when there is a hostage. if he was alone that would be a different story.

And what should they have done after they retreated?

And I'm sorry, but to say the SWAT ego got in the way? They haven't lost a hostage since 1980. So I'd assume these are highly trained individuals, who more than likely wouldn't let their ego get in the way. If they did, I'm sure there would've been a much higher death toll between 1980 and now, where it stands at 1.

 

[OrByte]

Officers fired at Peña, who appeared to return fire, then fell back. He retreated into the office.

Thinking Peña was hit, officers decided to make their move by storming the building.

But when officers got inside, they realized that Peña, far from being disabled, had managed to retreat into the small, walled office at the front of the repair bay, and was firing at them through the walls.

The officers advanced toward him, according to Police Lt. Michael Albanese, who oversees the SWAT unit.


wow. They didnt know where the baby was, if she was even in the room with the guy, SWAT didnt know if the hostage was even in there with him.

but they went in there after him?

 

[BigJ]

Originally posted by: OrByte
Officers fired at Peña, who appeared to return fire, then fell back. He retreated into the office.

Thinking Peña was hit, officers decided to make their move by storming the building.

But when officers got inside, they realized that Peña, far from being disabled, had managed to retreat into the small, walled office at the front of the repair bay, and was firing at them through the walls.

The officers advanced toward him, according to Police Lt. Michael Albanese, who oversees the SWAT unit.


wow. They didnt know where the baby was, if she was even in the room with the guy, SWAT didnt know if the hostage was even in there with him.

but they went in there after him?

You're taking things out of context. It was safe to assume once he went into the building he would be holding the child hostage. If that's not the case, then it works out all the better when they storm the building.

 

[OutHouse]

Originally posted by: BigJ

Originally posted by: Citrix
yes, when there is a hostage. if he was alone that would be a different story.

And what should they have done after they retreated?

And I'm sorry, but to say the SWAT ego got in the way? They haven't lost a hostage since 1980. So I'd assume these are highly trained individuals, who more than likely wouldn't let their ego get in the way. If they did, I'm sure there would've been a much higher death toll between 1980 and now, where it stands at 1.

they go back outside and wait and resolve it without any more gun play.

 

[BigJ]

Originally posted by: Citrix

Originally posted by: BigJ

Originally posted by: Citrix
yes, when there is a hostage. if he was alone that would be a different story.

And what should they have done after they retreated?

And I'm sorry, but to say the SWAT ego got in the way? They haven't lost a hostage since 1980. So I'd assume these are highly trained individuals, who more than likely wouldn't let their ego get in the way. If they did, I'm sure there would've been a much higher death toll between 1980 and now, where it stands at 1.

they go back outside and wait and resolve it without any more gun play.

Simple as that, eh? And you know they didn't weigh this possibility how?

We're going to easily resolve this when dealing with an ex-military, depressed, intoxicated man with a pending child molestation charge, who was just served with a restraining order because of it.

 

[NuroMancer]

It is possible that they thought that the suspect was removed from the child and if they could take him out now, then he wouldn't be in a position to harm the child. And if there is only 1 hostage taker whats wrong with sending officers after him to end the situation? If he is stopped then the risk to the hostage is ended.

 

[HeroOfPellinor]

Originally posted by: emmpee
new article with LOTS OF NEW INFO on the topic is here: http://www.latimes.com/news/local/state...273050.story?page=1&coll=la-news-state

Please read it before commenting further, it has answers to 99.44% of the questions people are asking here. It should also take care of the "sniper" arguments.

Initially, police officials said Peña had his daughter in his arms at that point. But later, officials said they were unsure where the girl was.

Officers fired at Peña, who appeared to return fire, then fell back. He retreated into the office.

Thinking Peña was hit, officers decided to make their move by storming the building.

But when officers got inside, they realized that Peña, far from being disabled, had managed to retreat into the small, walled office at the front of the repair bay, and was firing at them through the walls.

The officers advanced toward him, according to Police Lt. Michael Albanese, who oversees the SWAT unit.

He said they held their fire even as bullets whizzed by them, trying to reach the open door of the office so that they could see Peña and the toddler.

As they advanced, the officers prepared to launch a flashing device to distract Peña. Just then, a bullet from within the office struck Officer Daniel Sanchez, 39, through the shoulder.

The other officers pressed forward toward the office's open door, and exchanged gunfire with Peña in the cramped interior.

So the flashing device plan pretty much went to pot when one of their own was struck in the shoulder?

Is that the recommended plan of action when you have a hostage-taker? Send in a SWAT team to chase him around the building? Is that supposed to make him more rational? Chasing him around and cornering him? Even after negotiations had already resulted in the release of one hostage?

So much for all your blind defense. These guys weren't painted into a corner. I KNEW something wasn't right here because the girl was killed by an officer. That's why I wasn't sympathetic toward law enforcement this time and I was right. That team probably, officially, screwed up. I don't believe that whoever was in charge authorized their actions....there's no way....not without using flash grenades or gas first.

 

[BigJ]

Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor

Originally posted by: emmpee
new article with LOTS OF NEW INFO on the topic is here: http://www.latimes.com/news/local/state...273050.story?page=1&coll=la-news-state

Please read it before commenting further, it has answers to 99.44% of the questions people are asking here. It should also take care of the "sniper" arguments.

Initially, police officials said Peña had his daughter in his arms at that point. But later, officials said they were unsure where the girl was.

Officers fired at Peña, who appeared to return fire, then fell back. He retreated into the office.

Thinking Peña was hit, officers decided to make their move by storming the building.

But when officers got inside, they realized that Peña, far from being disabled, had managed to retreat into the small, walled office at the front of the repair bay, and was firing at them through the walls.

The officers advanced toward him, according to Police Lt. Michael Albanese, who oversees the SWAT unit.

He said they held their fire even as bullets whizzed by them, trying to reach the open door of the office so that they could see Peña and the toddler.

As they advanced, the officers prepared to launch a flashing device to distract Peña. Just then, a bullet from within the office struck Officer Daniel Sanchez, 39, through the shoulder.

The other officers pressed forward toward the office's open door, and exchanged gunfire with Peña in the cramped interior.

So the flashing device plan pretty much went to pot when one of their own was struck in the shoulder?

Is that the recommended plan of action when you have a hostage-taker? Send in a SWAT team to chase him around the building? Is that supposed to make him more rational? Chasing him around and cornering him? Even after negotiations had already resulted in the release of one hostage?

So much for all your blind defense. These guys weren't painted into a corner. I KNEW something wasn't right here because the girl was killed by an officer. That's why I wasn't sympathetic toward law enforcement this time and I was right. That team probably, officially, screwed up. I don't believe that whoever was in charge authorized their actions....there's no way....not without using flash grenades or gas first.

They did not negotiate the release of one hostage. The stepdaughter escaped, and the man opened fire on the officers as they tried to rescue her when she was caught behind a fence.

There is still no official word on whether or not the girl was killed by officers. Don't jump to conclusions.

And they didn't chase them around the building. They went on the assumption that he was wounded. They then entered the building to try to find his location.

Please re-read the article.

EDIT: Also, who said anything about a blind defense? People were just randomly attacking the police in this situation with absolutely no proof what-so-ever. People just spouted off statements, not even bothering to think about why something did, or did not happen. Instead of people actually rationally thinking through, they spouted off a bunch of crap they picked up from action movies and Counter-Strike. I guess it should be "so much for blindly attacking the police."

 

[axnff]

From the CNN article

Bratton said the fatal shooting was only the second time a hostage had been killed since the department formed its SWAT team in 1967. In that time, SWAT officers have responded to 3,800 calls involving hostages or people barricaded inside buildings.

LA SWAT is obviously has a good track record (assuming the above statement is true). The assumption would therefore lead us to believe that this particular SWAT team is trained to those standards. While I feel that abandoning the flash-grenade attack as soon as someone gets hit might be rash, we are still getting the official line of what happened. It appears that they were trying to ascertain the hostage's whereabouts, when the s*** hit the fan....

And we still don't even know whether the fatal shot was LAPD. She had a single shot to the head, and notice the LATimes mentioned how and when the suspect was hit (shot once, got back up shot again, etc....). It doesn't sound like a hailstorm of bullets, either.

A very sad outcome to a bad situation....

 

[Rickten]

I'd just like to point out this part of the article
"The SWAT officers involved in the standoff were taking the girl's death hard, police said, noting that it was the first time since 1980 that a hostage has died in an LAPD standoff."

I recall many comments along the lines of "typical LAPD, this kind of crap always happens they are too gunho... blah blah blah. Don't give a crap about anybody...."

I love the people making blind assumptions about what should have been done and how the decisions that were made were rash and careless. Please people if you think you can do better go join your local police force if not then stfu.

 

[TomKazansky]

this is what snipers are for.

 

[QuitBanningMe]

Originally posted by: infestedgh0st
this is what snipers are for.

:roll:
not again..............

 

[Nitemare]

Originally posted by: QuitBanningMe

Originally posted by: infestedgh0st
I wish I could read before I post comments

:roll:
not again..............

indeed

 

[SketchMaster]

Man, I really hate hearing about stuff like this. A life that had so much potential cut short by one that had backed it's self into a corner.

What's worse is while a family is weeping over the death of their chilled, you guy's are bickering over how the cops should have done their jobs.

It's real easy to sit behind your computers and talk big about how you would have done it differently. Well I would LOVE to see how you guy's handle making a Life or Death decision in a split second. Yes it could have been handled better but the fact remans that a little girl is dead and no amount of badgering can change that.

If you don't like how the police handle things maybe you should go sign up for the force and put YOUR life on the line.

 

[CDC Mail Guy]

This is not the movie "Speed", where you can "take the hostage out of the equasion". This is real life, and a baby...that is just too sad. They should have taken better care, maybe aimed lower like at his balls! However, hindsight being what it is, it is always easy for those of us not involved to second guess. The whole story sucks, too sad. Just another reason I do not watch the news.

 

[Acanthus]

Originally posted by: Hammer
should have waited for SWAT

From what ive read, it was a Swat officer that was hit.

 

[clarkmo]

I think if you ask the professionals involved, they will tell you that yes, they fvcked up.

Doesn't anyone go to the movies anymore? I read "Hostage" before the movie came out and it seems that the only way the cops would go in to take the guy down is if the hostage was in imminent danger. I realize that Hollywood ain't reality but usually some research is done prior to publishing a fictional book and there's something about that policy that has the ring of truth. It sounds like the right thing to do. Granted, if the guy's in Dodger stadium firing on a sold out crowd the priority would be to take him down, but here, I don't think that's been established yet, at least publicly.

 

[misterj]

the news is always truthful and reliable..

 

[Velk]

Originally posted by: infestedgh0st
this is what snipers are for.

So sniper shoots guy in the head, he drops the baby, baby dies.

Whose fault is that now ?

 

[Epiphany]

Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor
I hate when losers become cops. If I was a police officer I would ACCEPT the fact that my life is on the line for innocent people. I would rather have taken a few bullets, and potentially have died, than have fired that close to a baby. That's why I'm NOT a cop. Too many people think being a cop is some job they do and go home to their familes. They're more interested in saving their own asses so they can go home to their families each night with minimal risk to themselves. Hey, go work as an admin assistant if that's what you want.

The guy shot at the cops. Fine, he needs to die ASAP. But how about everybody takes cover and we give one of those highly trained snipers a chance to do his job instead of panicing and letting loose a hail of bullets.

I'm usually sympathetic to the cops when it's a questionable call, but their actions in this case, unless there's more to it, are abhorrant to me.

you're not asking for cops per se... more like super heroes.

 

[rh71]

Originally posted by: Astaroth33

Originally posted by: 91TTZ
The police could have handled this much better. Whenever they make a mistake, they try to justify it somehow, but if a suspect made a mistake like this, it cannot be justified and they're going to jail.

The police screwed up and killed a hostage just to kill the hostage taker. Real good job.

The police were being shot at, and they did what they had to do. Even had you had police training, I seriously doubt you could have done any better. I'd like to see how you react if you or your coworker/buddy was just shot by that clown..

I'm starting to wonder if it's just the lack of good training in our police departments. Time after time we see cops shoot and miss (remember the white SUV from last month?)... from short distances. Over 100 rounds and the guy in the driver's seat going idle speed was hit less than 5 times.

I'm only thinking it can be better because we've seen stories (here on ATOT) of the chinese police taking out a hostage taker with a headshot, with a handgun. Do they just have better / more training ?

 

[waggy]

tragic story.

I really feel for the cop that hit the child.



I agree it seem that the cops need better training (fireing 300 rounds at a SUV and hitting houses is a little sily), but in this case i do not think it would have helped.
You have a guy who is going down. regardless of what you say or do. He wanted to take as many people with him when he went. including his child. so he forced the cops into fireing at him.

what kind of man uses his or any baby as a shield? i just do not understand it.

 

[Orsorum]

lol Always fun to see a bunch of non-police officers acting like they know something about police tactics, SWAT, or ballistics, from watching SWAT or a bunch of NYPD Blue episodes.

 

[waggy]

Originally posted by: Orsorum
lol Always fun to see a bunch of non-police officers acting like they know something about police tactics, SWAT, or ballistics, from watching SWAT or a bunch of NYPD Blue episodes.

what?

you mean all those TV shows, Movies and such are not right!? darn.