Lance Armstrong banned for life, stripped of 7 Tour wins

[Fayd]

Okay, Level Playing Field crew, here's a question.

Say you have a kid who loves cycling and shows some promise coming through the amateur ranks. At what point do you sit them down and show them how to hit a vein so they can infuse a bag of their own blood you've been storing? What do you feel is an appropriate age to begin supplementing testosterone in the offseason to improve recovery? Is an altitude tent an over-the-top Christmas gift?

how is that any different from sending a kid off to olympic training camp or hiring an expensive coach...or any other thing parents of hopefuls do to give their kid an advantage?

 

[ElFenix]

meh, i'm pretty ok with people injecting their own blood back into themselves. seems hard core to me. blood rage or something. so long as they know the risks, who am i to tell them otherwise.

 

[Dumac]

meh, i'm pretty ok with people injecting their own blood back into themselves. seems hard core to me. blood rage or something. so long as they know the risks, who am i to tell them otherwise.

best comment in this thread

 

[Fausto]

how is that any different from sending a kid off to olympic training camp or hiring an expensive coach...or any other thing parents of hopefuls do to give their kid an advantage?

You are either trolling or have chromosomal damage.

 

[boyRacer]

Are they going to let him keep his moon landing at least?

 

[Pens1566]

Witnesses who saw him use, and who used with him, are, in my view, reliable as evidence, particularly since their testimony is apparently supported by physical evidence in the form of retests of his blood, using modern testing technology, which show markers for EPO. These are witnesses who, unlike Lance, have no reason to lie (indeed some of them, like George Hincapie, have reason to protect him as much as possible). Combine this with the fact that, after surviving cancer, he absolutely dominated a field of top-flight riders, nearly all of whom are now known to have used drugs, and it becomes very difficult to suspend disbelief any longer.

Mario Lemieux came back (same night as his last treatment) from cancer and dominated his sport as well. Simple explanation, they're both the best at what they did in that time.

 

[Pulsar]

The USADA has complete discredited itself today.

I don't pretend to know whether he was doping or not, but the fact remains that no one can prove that he did. Claims from those under threat are at best suspect, IMHO.

This sends a terrible message to aspiring cyclists: If you win, this is what happens to you.

Ahh, sixone steps out of L&R.

Why don't you try reading the articles and understanding EXACTLY what is happening.

On August 20th, Armstrong's court case was dismissed by the Judge.

Thus, Armstong was screwed. The USADA had built a case through first hand testimony of witnesses, and scientific evidence (the afore mentioned plastimers). However, they have not released any of that information. It would be inappropriate to release it before their process was complete. The next step in their process was arbitration, in which ALL that information was going to be released to the public.

Lance stopped fighting because if he doesn't show up at arbitration, the information isn't released. That leaves people still able to argue his side, because they don't know all the facts.

I don't know if the USADA has the power to strip his Tour titles. I don't really care. I also was always in awe of Lance and the fight he made to survive, and his later success.

However, what has happened here is quite clear. Lance knows he is going to lose in arbitration and knows that his image is going to be destroyed. Walking away to prevent the information from being released is the smartest thing the man could have done.

The facts stand. This would not have continued forever - the Tour folks have already stopped. The USADA has a specified legal process they must follow: it is not endless as Lance suggests. He's blowing smoke up people's asses.

IF he didn't dope, there was every reason to continue with Arbitration and complete the USADA's legal process.

 

[SKORPI0]

I posted this story in P&N.
According to the P&N Elite they said this story is a fake.
I see it all over the news.
Any links, proof that this is fake?

Article is real, but your thread title is very misleading... as always.
As this thread title too, like jumping the gun.... it (title being stripped) hasn't happened yet, but it will/might happen.... in a few hours, tomorrow, never.

Are they going to let him keep his moon landing at least?

Wrong Armstrong. BTW, there is no proof that they didn't land on the moon. :hmm:

 

[zinfamous]

He did dope but he wasn't cheating. Everyone dopes in that sport.. EVERYONE. If you don't dope they kick you off the team because you're slowing everyone else down.

that's pretty much how I see it. this is all truly retarded.

I think it's rather good of him to make this decision...it basically casts this agency as the supreme villain: they hound and hound this "great American Hero," despite his evidence to the contrary, until he just gives up, exhausted.

Then they ban him

I wouldn't be surprised if he remains relatively untarnished in the public eye.

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

Mario Lemieux came back (same night as his last treatment) from cancer and dominated his sport as well. Simple explanation, they're both the best at what they did in that time.

Totally different sport. The Tour de France is the most difficult endurance athletic event on earth. It is essentially all about fitness, whereas hockey is essentially all about athleticism, coordination, vision, etc. Even setting aside Lance's cancer, he was consistently dominating a field of other endurance athletes, nearly all of whom were doping. I simply don't believe it's possible that he could have done so without doping himself, and there is an abundance of evidence (both in the form of forensic evidence and eyewitness testimony) that he was doing just that.

I am not saying these things to dance on his grave - I was a big fan of Lance during his TdF wins, and would rather he had been left alone - but facts are facts, and I think it takes a rather extreme amount of denial and willful ignorance to maintain that he was riding clean.

 

[dougp]

I am not saying these things to dance on his grave - I was a big fan of Lance during his TdF wins, and would rather he had been left alone - but facts are facts, and I think it takes a rather extreme amount of denial and willful ignorance to maintain that he was riding clean.

You're a lawyer, correct? So uh, what are these "facts" you speak of? Guilt by association isn't a fact. By this logic, Hank Aaron & Babe Ruth both used steroids.

 

[zinfamous]

You're a lawyer, correct? So uh, what are these "facts" you speak of? Guilt by association isn't a fact. By this logic, Hank Aaron & Babe Ruth both used steroids.

DVC is using the facts and evidence from many testimonials, advanced drug tests, etc etc. All of these things add up to solid evidence or "facts" in a court of law.

His posts and comments have not been limited simply to guilt by association.

 

[dougp]

DVC is using the facts and evidence from many testimonials, advanced drug tests, etc etc. All of these things add up to solid evidence or "facts" in a court of law.

His posts and comments have not been limited simply to guild by association.

Obviously none of these were good enough FOR THE UNITED STATES FUCKING GOVERNMENT TO PRESS CHARGES.

That's why this whole thing is a fucking joke.

 

[zinfamous]

Obviously none of these were good enough FOR THE UNITED STATES FUCKING GOVERNMENT TO PRESS CHARGES.

That's why this whole thing is a fucking joke.

not sure if serious....it was about to go into arbitration, where all of the evidence would become public knowledge.

He was about to have charges filed against him.

this is why Lance bailed, to preserve his image more or less. It was a wise thing to do if you ask me...and again, I bear him no ill will. I think that in a sport of dopers, he dominated all of them. The drugs were already controlled for...so it seems rather useless and inaccurate to call him a "cheater," no?

 

[dougp]

not sure if serious....it was about to go into arbitration, where all of the evidence would become public knowledge.

He was about to have charges filed against him.

this is why Lance bailed, to preserve his image more or less. It was a wise thing to do if you ask me...and again, I bear him no ill will. I think that in a sport of dopers, he dominated all of them. The drugs were already controlled for...so it seems rather useless and inaccurate to call him a "cheater," no?

What was about to go into arbitration, the charges from the USADA? You mean the non-government entity that isn't regulated by anything but itself with biased arbitration? The US Government dropped any formal charges they had against Lance, which should be huge considering the fact that if the USADA actually had legitimate evidence that would stand in court, they should have provided it so the US AG's could have prosecuted Armstrong for breaking the law.

I posted this in the other thread and it was ignored. Try reading it and determining that there was nothing fair about these accusations.

http://www.opposingviews.com/i/spor...osecutor-jury-and-judge-lance-armstrong-case#

 

[TXHokie]

So much for innocent until proven guilty

...or until you decide to quit paying the lawyers.

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

You're a lawyer, correct? So uh, what are these "facts" you speak of? Guilt by association isn't a fact. By this logic, Hank Aaron & Babe Ruth both used steroids.

The facts include, among other things, modern testing of Lance's old samples that show the presence of EPO binders, the sworn testimony of a host of witnesses (most significantly Lance's trusted lieutenant George Hincapie) that they saw him use and used with him, the testimony of his former team masseuse that she brought him drugs and disposed of drug packaging and syringes on his behalf, and the testimony of his former teammate and his wife that Lance admitted to his medical providers in their presence, at the time of his cancer treatment, that he was a user of EPO. It's very likely there is more evidence, but this is at least some of it.

When I combine all of this evidence with his seemingly superhuman performance, I think it's very likely Lance would be found guilty under a criminal, beyond-a-reasonable-doubt standard, or the similar "comfortable satisfaction of the hearing body" standard applied by USADA. I infer from Lance's decision to drop his defense that he sees it the same way, and fears the effect of the public exposure of this mountain of evidence.

 

[ElFenix]

not sure if serious....it was about to go into arbitration, where all of the evidence would become public knowledge.

He was about to have charges filed against him.

this is why Lance bailed, to preserve his image more or less. It was a wise thing to do if you ask me...and again, I bear him no ill will. I think that in a sport of dopers, he dominated all of them. The drugs were already controlled for...so it seems rather useless and inaccurate to call him a "cheater," no?

no, he wasn't. USADA is not a government agency. the actual government agency that investigated him (the FBI) decided to drop it.

 

[RiDE]

not sure if serious....it was about to go into arbitration, where all of the evidence would become public knowledge.

He was about to have charges filed against him.

this is why Lance bailed, to preserve his image more or less. It was a wise thing to do if you ask me...and again, I bear him no ill will. I think that in a sport of dopers, he dominated all of them. The drugs were already controlled for...so it seems rather useless and inaccurate to call him a "cheater," no?

Hes talking about the 20 month federal investigation that was dropped before USADA picked it up and all the 'evidence' with it. I'm not sure how Lance's decision will keep the evidence from coming out since Bruyneel is taking his case into arbitration.

 

[dougp]

When I combine all of this evidence with his seemingly superhuman performance, I think it's very likely Lance would be found guilty under a criminal, beyond-a-reasonable-doubt standard, or the similar "comfortable satisfaction of the hearing body" standard applied by USADA. I infer from Lance's decision to drop his defense that he sees it the same way, and fears the effect of the public exposure of this mountain of evidence.

Considering the US Government couldn't surmount enough evidence for him to be "found guilty under a criminal, beyond-a-reasonable-doubt standard" by a Grand Jury, I sincerely doubt that the "evidence" being used by the USADA would either. Read the article I posted above and see what is involved in this arbitration and you'd see why Lance feels there's no need to continue pursuing it.

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

Considering the US Government couldn't surmount enough evidence for him to be "found guilty under a criminal, beyond-a-reasonable-doubt standard" by a Grand Jury, I sincerely doubt that the "evidence" being used by the USADA would either. Read the article I posted above and see what is involved in this arbitration and you'd see why Lance feels there's no need to continue pursuing it.

There is no way of knowing whether the government could adduce enough evidence to convict him, as they dropped their case. That, without more, doesn't mean they couldn't have won or even that they felt they couldn't. I suspect after the high-profile failures in the prosecutions of Barry Bonds and Roger Clemons (both of whom pretty clearly doped and lied about it, IMO), they felt it wasn't an advisable use of taxpayer money to go after Lance Armstrong, American Hero.

There is one way we could have learned whether this arbitration would have found proof to the applicable standard: by Lance demanding his day in court. He declined to do so, because, I can only conclude, he felt he would likely lose, and the evidence against him would become public.

 

[SlitheryDee]

He wouldn't have given up if he could have won out. Cycling is an endurance sport. Putting in untold thousands of miles in training and competition. Putting in hours upon hours of his life to win. Only to be wearied by legal actions? No, if he thought he could keep his titles, he'd never stop fighting for them. He knew that he had lost. He took the best option available to him.

 

[dougp]

There is one way we could have learned whether this arbitration would have found proof to the applicable standard: by Lance demanding his day in court. He declined to do so, because, I can only conclude, he felt he would likely lose, and the evidence against him would become public.

He wasn't going to get a day in court, don't you understand that? He was walking into a one-sided arbitration by the USADA. Read the freaking link I posted.

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

He wasn't going to get a day in court, don't you understand that? He was walking into a one-sided arbitration by the USADA. Read the freaking link I posted.

Feel free to post your link again - I am not going to plow through 6 pages to find it.

 

[gorcorps]

Feel free to post your link again - I am not going to plow through 6 pages to find it.

6 pages?

Oh... you're one of THOSE people :sneaky: