LAN/WAN clarification... part 2.5

xyyz

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Sep 3, 2000
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Let's start from the basics... so I can better explain how I see this thing as working.

1.) what is the difference between a LAN and WAN?

is it the fact that a WAN pushes traffic past a demarc... into another network?

2.) take a cisco router... and the router's serial port... is this a Layer2 device... what about the CSU/DSU?

the port is a layer 1 device right? and the CSU/DSU is a layer 1 device? or does the serial cable somehow make the CSU/DSU part of the router making the link from the serial to the CSU/DSU a layer2 connection and the CSU/DSU a layer 1 device?

3.) what is a gateway... please gimme HARWARE specifics... is it a special router a special server and provice a real life example... (like a cisco 1601 or something)

this still confuses me no matter how much someone explains it to me... I think I need to see something tactile.

4.) what is the minimum # of routers you need before you'd implemet routing protoculs?

4 right? if they are all in a ring architecture... and all routers have only one LAN to deal with?

I have a few others... but I forget right now.
 

Garion

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Apr 23, 2001
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1: A LAN is a series of computers connected together with high-speed copper (or, optical, in some very rare cases). Typical LAN technologies include Ethernet, Token Ring, etc. Generally, a single LAN exists at ONE site - One office, one floor, one building, one series of buildings with high-speed interconnects, etc.

A WAN is when you use a circuit or some kind of 3rd party's resources to send your data over a distance between LAN's. The classic WAN is two offices in different parts of town, connected by a T1. Typically, communication across a WAN is much slower speed than a LAN.

When you say "pushes traffic across a demarc into another network", you're getting closer. A Demarc is just a place in a building where circuits terminate, really just a physical place, not anything more complex. So, in a WAN you ARE pushing data through the demarc, but that's part of using a circuit.

The "into another network" part is actually true. I've built LANS with 5,000 switch ports across four buildings. We used about two dozen different network segments (also called separate IP subnets) to manage traffic in the LAN. So, the exit point from a LAN segment isn't always a WAN - It could be another LAN segment.

2: A layer 2 device is charged with transmitting data between two devices on the network. It doesn't care about anything but sending this frame of data from Device A to Device B. A Cisco router has some layer2 components, but is, in general, a layer 3 device as it does routing between networks and works at the IP level. The classic Layer 2 device that everyone uses for a reference is a Bridge or a Switch. They don't care about networks, they just look at the MAC address to see how a frame should be delivered.

Here's a concept for you.. If you have a device that works at layer 3 (such as a Router), it has to also have functions for Layer 2 and depends on Layer 1. For example, a Cisco router is a layer 3 device because it can examine data at the network layer and determine if it should be routed. Once it determines it SHOULD be routed, it functions like any other layer 2 device on the network and transmits across the network.

In general, you really don't separate out the layers when dealing with devices, other than network gear. PC's, servers, etc. all deal at all seven layers, each layer depending on the one underneath it to get data from an application across the network. A router just deals with layer 3 and below, and a switch just deals with layers 2 and below.

A CSU/DSU is a layer 1 device, yes. It is responsable for transferring the physical electrical signal carrying your network traffic across the wire.

3: A gateway is any device that gets traffic OUT of your network segment or IP subnet. A gateway is pretty much always a router. If you have a single building with two subnets and a single router with two Ethernet ports between them, that router is the gateway for both networks. In this case, a 1605 could do the job, as it's got two Ethernet ports. In the case of a smaller network with just one subnet, a 1601 connecting to your ISP could be the gateway.

4: There's no real minimum number of routers you need - If your network doesn't change much and you only have a few routers, static routing is fine. I'd use the number tenish to put in a routing protocol. The time when you would want a routing protocol with less is when you have a meshed network. Example would be three offices with T1's between them. A->B, B->C, C->A. If your A->B link went down, you could still get from A to B through office C, just not the most efficient path. You'd need a routing protocol to realize that a circuit was down and to authomatically re-route your traffic a different way.

- G


A CSU/DSU is inde



 

Garion

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Apr 23, 2001
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Actually, I thought something on the way to work today.. There might be a terminology mismatch here - When you reference "a network", exactly what do you mean? Unfortunately, that catch-all term can be too generic for use in technical discussions..

Are you referring to a specific subnet/network segment, or the collection of all segments/subnets at a site, or EVERYTHING, all the LAN, WAN, etc. for one company?

- G
 

L3Guy

Senior member
Apr 19, 2001
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These threads are fun. However, since Garion beat me to it, ... :)

1
Historically, there was Ethernet ( and Token Ring ) and 56K DDS. Since the speed and distance gaps were obvious, nobody really bothered to define them well. Slow, long distance, WAN. Fast, short distance, LAN.

Since you can bridge on the wan, by at least some definitions, it can be the same "network" ( broadcast domain) and still cross a WAN link. Also, some organizations have private microwave links, private fiber, etc. that I would call WAN, even though it never crosses a Demark. However, the demark definition is close.

2. Since the CSU/DSU works at the bit lever and ignores such things as Mac address and dlci, its a layer 1 device.
The serial port on a router is nominally layer 2 aware, so saying its layer 2 has some justification.

3. One definition of gateway is router. Another definition of gateway is a layer 7 aware device that acts as a protocol converter.
The classic example is a SNA gateway. It is a PC with a LAN card and a serial or token ring card that acts like a 3174 SNA cluster controller for PC's. Another gateway function is on a Cisco router doing LAT to Telnet conversion. The Cisco has to understand and read both LAT and telnet in order to convert between them.

4. Two routers is minimum. The routing protocol can sense link down situations in cases where multiple paths exist.
Take this example: Two routers are connected by two hubs, Router 1 has port A into Hub 1 and port B into hub 2.
Router 2 has port A into Hub 1 and port B into hub 2. Each router has static routes to the other through Hub 1, and backup static routes through hub 2. While we are testing this, we turn off hub 1, and everything works. we turn on hub 1, and turn off hub 2, everything?s still fine. Now we pull one connection from router 2 to hub 1, and the pings fail! since router 2 looses link, it knows to send packets to hub 2. But since on router 1, port A is still up, the router has no way to know that the link is down from the hub to R2.
A dynamic routing protocol can solve this issue.

Regards;

Doug
 

FFC

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Oct 23, 2001
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Here's my .02p's worth.

1. The difference between a LAN and WAN is now blurring considerably. It used to be that a LAN was indeed a LOCAL network of some kind (Arcnet, Ethernet, Token Ring, any number of dead proprietary solutions) and that a WAN involved communicating via a telco network of some kind from speed as low as 300bps. Today those distinctions have gone, we have networks which look like LANS but traverse continents. For example LAN's are being created across Europe using MPLS for the long haul parts but the net effect for a network administrator is that the network is a LAN, his Demarq's are Gigabit Ethernet ports.

2. The serial port on a router is a layer one/two device. It performs the appropriate framing encapsulation/decapsulation for layer 2 (HDLC/PPP/Frame relay) as well as transmitting the data as electiacl pulses through pins which is a layer one function.

3. A gateway is a different thing to different people in different environments. It used to be that a gateway performed translation of protocols for most layers of the OSI stack. You could take terminal session on an ethernet connected workstation feed those packets to a SNA gateway which will translate them into some form of session that an SNA host could understand and transmit them over a telco circuit of some kind to the SNA host device. The SNA host device would have been using a completely different set of networking and application protocols to the client and the gateway provided the translation between the two. Today most of the big host world has caved in and TCP/IP in some form has been installed on those devices making connectivity much easier. Todays normal interpretation of a gateway is the default router/gateway on a LAN.

4. There is no hard and fast rule regarding this. I try to avoid static routes where possible but they do have their place. I have two routers at home, one connects me into work via ISDN the other to the net via cable. They use RIP-2 to communicate with each, that's my choice, I could have used static routes but chose not to.


Cheers

Dave
 

hojl

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okay this is very informative and I really enjoyed this thread..
HOWEVER!!!
how do you actually speeeel demarc demark demarq? :)
 

FFC

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Oct 23, 2001
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In hqave no idea, we don't use the term in Europe. I copied ealier posts (I think)! :)
 

spidey07

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I always thought it was DEMARC, comes from demarcation.

How many routers do you need to use a routing protocol? ONE. You can run any routing protocol and it associated processes on a single router. Not very useful though. You wouldn't be exchanging routes with anybody. :)
 

xyyz

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Sep 3, 2000
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okay... you guys really killed me with your gateway explanation (except for Garion... and my thanks for that :) )



<< 3. One definition of gateway is router. Another definition of gateway is a layer 7 aware device that acts as a protocol converter.
The classic example is a SNA gateway. It is a PC with a LAN card and a serial or token ring card that acts like a 3174 SNA cluster controller for PC's. Another gateway function is on a Cisco router doing LAT to Telnet conversion. The Cisco has to understand and read both LAT and telnet in order to convert between them.
>>


and


<< . A gateway is a different thing to different people in different environments. It used to be that a gateway performed translation of protocols for most layers of the OSI stack. You could take terminal session on an ethernet connected workstation feed those packets to a SNA gateway which will translate them into some form of session that an SNA host could understand and transmit them over a telco circuit of some kind to the SNA host device. The SNA host device would have been using a completely different set of networking and application protocols to the client and the gateway provided the translation between the two. Today most of the big host world has caved in and TCP/IP in some form has been installed on those devices making connectivity much easier. Todays normal interpretation of a gateway is the default router/gateway on a LAN. >>



But in this case a router isn't a device that acts on all seven layers. So, a router can't be a gateway? Man, the idea that a gateway was something that connected your LAN to another LAN and allowed LAN-to-LAN communication (a router in other words) was so much more simple.

Explain please.

I also saw webopedia's definitions for LAT and SNA... are these systems actually still used? We're talking about VAX and IBM mainframes here (I can see how the second ones might still be used...)




Oh yeah another question....

is there such a thing as Layer2 routing? Why isn't there Layer-2 routing? I can see how you'd need alot more memory and processing power... but wouldn't that pretty much insure that you can't spoof because MAC addresses are unique?
 

Garion

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Apr 23, 2001
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Everyone is correct on their definitions of a gateway. In old school networking, a gateway was something that converted different protocols (IE, a IPX->SNA gateway on a Novell server with a mainframe connection) or something that converted between network types (Token Ring -> Ethernet gateway). Nowadays, those things are so uncommon in your "average" network that the term has morphed into a shortened version of "default gateway" setting that is used in a machine's TCP/IP settings.

LAT is less used, since most Dec networks use IP instead of Decnet nowadays.. SNA is still pretty active, since there's a LOT more mainframes out there than you think. You have to be in a pretty big company to have one or to deal with SNA, but you never know.. I work for a bank with a bunch of of mainframes doing network architecture and I still don't know much about SNA other than how to spell it and that it's tunneled through IP using DLSW.

The very term routing is a fuzzy one. For simplification purposes, it's used to describe how traffic is directed between different subnets at Layer 3.

(A bit techie here - If you don't get this or if it's confusing, ignore it!).

There are quite a few layer 2 protocols that do routing. Take ATM. It's most definitely a layer 2 protocol, but it can distribute traffic across massive networks. It has it's own internal mechanisms for routing ATM cells between devices, across circuits, etc. without changing the IP address. It's got it's own routing protocol, addressing protocols, etc. It's a big, nasty, hairy beast that you REALLY don't want to get into (I don't even go there!) right now.

A more simple example is frame relay. You have two routers on each end of a frame cloud that send data across the frame cloud, which is strictly layer 2. But, within that frame cloud, there are path determinations that take place, forwarding, something that looks like a routing protocol, etc.

So, routing "does" happen at Layer 2 - It's just generally transparent to the end-users and to the layer 3 protocol. All the layer 3 does is know that there's an IP address that can be accessed on an interface and sends data across it when that's where the data needs to be sent to get to it's final destination.

- G
 

Garion

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Apr 23, 2001
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.. One more thing. A router really doesn't act at all seven layers. It's primary concerned with layer 3. It does do Layer 4 information when you setup filtering of TCP or UDP based on port number, but that's about as high as it gets. Some might argue that it goes higher (since it has a GUI) but it's core function is really at layer 3, with some layer 4 add-ons.

- Jason
 

L3Guy

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Apr 19, 2001
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<< you guys really killed me with your gateway explanation >>


What?s wrong, networking terms can't have multiple and confusing meanings? ;)

The first name for a router was gateway, and default gateway dates back to that era.

You are correct, a routers primary responsibility in the VAST MAJORITY of cases is Layer 3 forwarding and maintaining a layer 3 forwarding table.

However, almost every router worth the name runs RouteD, a layer 7 function. If a router were ONLY Layer 3, you couldn't telnet in to configure it. :)
Garion nailed it by saying that any forwarding other than routing or (like to like) bridging is called a gateway function. True fact.
Also, these conversions are becoming rare with the widespread deployment of TCP/IP on every toaster in the world. :)

Classic routers are processor based machines, running an OS and a program(s). Nothing stopping it from running other processes like web servers, translators, tftpD. while that makes a "pure router"



<< is there such a thing as Layer2 routing? >>


To me, a routing process at any layer consists of building a forwarding table and forwarding packets based on the table.
And when I talk of building a table, I am talking of a protocol exchanging information between forwarding devices.
This cannot happen at Layer 1.
This usually does not happen at layer 2 in my personal worldview. ATM PNNI would be the only exception IMHO. And lets not go there!
The norm at layer 3 (and higher)

Regards;

Doug

 

xyyz

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Sep 3, 2000
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<< A more simple example is frame relay. You have two routers on each end of a frame cloud that send data across the frame cloud, which is strictly layer 2. But, within that frame cloud, there are path determinations that take place, forwarding, something that looks like a routing protocol, etc. >>



Okay stop right here cause this really confsued me. This is totally the opposite of what was said in my other WAN question threads.

Here, I'll quote.

L3Guy answered me by saying:



<< << so how does a frame relay switch decide which path the frame will traverse through the frame relay mesh? >>

An engineer sets a static path through the frame relay cloud.
>>



But you are saying that the FR swtiches actively decide the pathway to shoot the frames through.

Can someone please clarify?
 

spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
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We should probably stay away from ATM and PNNI for now, it will only serve to confuse you as it confuses everybody. :)

A PVC defines two end points within an ATM network. How cells get from one endpoint (UNI) to another can be statically defined across all switches or by the use of PNNI which can be visualized as a routing protocol for layer2 forwarding. With PNNI, switches will maintain forwarding databases and alternate paths based on ATM addresses.

Like most things in networking you can accomplish the same goal in many different ways using very different methods.
 

xyyz

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Sep 3, 2000
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it's odd that ScottMac hasn't chimed in yet...

so where does it stand? FR can be pass frames both statically and dynamically?

 

spidey07

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Aug 4, 2000
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???????

Now I'm confused. Until you actually see this stuff in action it might not "click" for you. Frame relay is a L2 protocol. What WAN switches do with this information is completely up to the configuration. Most carrier networks are a collection of ATM switches the run Frame-Relay at the edge. Again, a network can be setup in any number of manners and trying to nail down the exact make-up is very difficult unless you actually own the net.

I can deliver to you Frame-Relay using only frame-relay. I can deliver to you Frame-Relay using a core network of ATM. I can deliver to you Frame-Relay using frame switches, ATM core, and private line circuit switched nets. Bottom line is you (as the customer) don't need to worry about it as long as I give you good latency/bandwidth.
 

xyyz

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Sep 3, 2000
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<< ???????

Now I'm confused.
>>



I seriously hope you don't mean this... because if you do... I give up all hope in understanding this.



<< Until you actually see this stuff in action it might not "click" for you. Frame relay is a L2 protocol. What WAN switches do with this information is completely up to the configuration. Most carrier networks are a collection of ATM switches the run Frame-Relay at the edge. Again, a network can be setup in any number of manners and trying to nail down the exact make-up is very difficult unless you actually own the net.

I can deliver to you Frame-Relay using only frame-relay. I can deliver to you Frame-Relay using a core network of ATM. I can deliver to you Frame-Relay using frame switches, ATM core, and private line circuit switched nets. Bottom line is you (as the customer) don't need to worry about it as long as I give you good latency/bandwidth.
>>



The reason i'm constantly harping on WAN tech is because I really wanted to do the CCNA+WAN or whatever that cert is... unfortunately (or fortunately depending on how you wanna look at it) Cisco pulled the cert and will replace it with something else (hopefully).

My CCNP class begins on the 19th... so clearing the confusion would be a good thing for me.

Explain what you mean when you use the term "edge" ... you said "Frame-Relay at the edge." What does this mean exactly?

Also, is there such a thing as a pure P-2-P link? It seems pretty impractical that you'd like a single wire from NY to LA. Even if you agregated billions of frames for many networks.
 

spidey07

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Aug 4, 2000
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the CCNP will not even scratch the surface of WAN technolgies apart from what a frame-relay DLCI is and how to configure the interfaces with some dial technologies thrown in (isdn, PRI, dial-bacup). seriously.

Focus more on routing protocols, access-lists and general commands.
 

ScottMac

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Mar 19, 2001
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(( Chiming In ))

Basically it boils down to you want a wire, they give you a wire. The wire is logically connected to where you want the information to go, the information gets there.

The fact that the wire MAY be made up of a single run of copper or fiber, or a boatload of layer one and two devices becomes irrelevant (as mentioned by Spidey) untill they fail to give you the level of service you and the provider have agreed to.

It's like an onion (not a cake - thanks Shrek). The information leaves your facility over some kind of infrastructure (L1, L2), it gets to some location that the ISP controls, he routes it (L3) down the pipe (L1,L2,L3) that is most likely to get it where it's s'posed to go. Some of the information is traveling over lines that are statically configured (usually with some fallback/failover/congestion reliever paths available), some may travel over paths that are dynamically established according to some configuration parameters (like shortest path, fastest path, circumvent private boundries, etc...courtesy of "routing protocols").

The whole way is a path of promises. The ISP promises you a certain bandwidth (and latency), the carrier (if the ISP is not large enough to have his own lines) promises him a certain amount of bandwidth(and latency), THAT carrier may sub-contract to other carriers (who may sub-contract to others and others, and others, and others....)...as long as everybody lives up to their bargain, things are smurfy.


That's why it's always shown as a cloud...nobody knows what's really going on in there. It could be anything. What it isn't is a spider web of point-to-point connections..it's not everywhere-to-everywhere..that'd take way too much media. The traffic gets condensed, the data gets reconstituted...it's all magic in the cloud. AGAIN, consider the telephone system: all the phones connect to central offices, those COs connect to Hub offices, they connect to major hub offices that connect to other major-hub offices. The hierarchy knows where to send the call (area codes between major hubs, the "exchange" - the first three numbers- to get from the major to the CO, then the four-digit number within that exchange/CO). The network/long lines hierarchy is very similar.

How do YOU think it gets from point A to point B? Where do you believe your Internet connection goes? What's YOUR understanding of how a point-to-point (and/or Frame Relay connection) works?

I dunno, if this one doesn't do the trick, there aren't many other ways to describe it.

FWIW

Scott
 

L3Guy

Senior member
Apr 19, 2001
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<< so where does it stand? FR can be pass frames both statically and dynamically? >>


I will quote no less an august person as the mighty Wizard of Oz himself "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain".
Frame relay is transported in three basic ways.
Classic Frame relay
Frame Relay tunneled in IP
Frame Relay Forum Specification 8, referred to as FRF 8.
In classic frame relay, an engineer sets up a PVC on a hop by hop basis.
In Frame relay tunneled over IP, the engineer sets up the tunnel by hand, then cerates the PVC.
In FRF 8, The frame relay is converted to ATM. The engineer creates a PVC to the destination, where it is converted back to frame relay.
With the ATM PVC, there is a choice whether to create the PVC hop by hop or use PNNI. The PVC is manually created in either case, just with PNNI, the PVC can use information to avoid having to specify every intermediate hop.

Notice that the PVC was set up by hand in all cases.

The Layered OSI model was created to be able to focus on what was going on while ignoring things that do not mater at the layer you are trying to understand.



<< Also, is there such a thing as a pure P-2-P link? >>


Yes, I have them in my lab. :) Seriously, if you send a data stream out with PPP encapsulation and the other router receives a data stream that is PPP encapsulated, its a point to point link. If it looks like a duck ...


















Must be a duck. :)

Seriously, most of the questions stem from complexities that happen out of our sight and we can't tell if they were used or not.
If ask how t got transported by the Telco, the response should be, "Don't know, don't care." Once you understand how each piece works, revisiting some of this may be more interesting and less frustrating.

Regards;

Doug