Lair and Heavenly sword.

[CKDragon]

Originally posted by: destrekor

Originally posted by: Sraaz
The graphics for Lair can be as pretty as they want to be, the controls are still shit.

have you played the game at all? if not, don't make such blatant statements suggesting that you have. It's not the hardest game ever (barring an idiot not knowing how to tilt a controller a few different directions), but it's definitely not the easiest, at least for me due to my lack of ability to dog fight in the greatest ease. Others who have mastered aerial combat games, sure it'll be cakewalk. Yet does a games difficulty truly determine the games overall quality? I have never judged the character of a specific game based on if it was easy or hard. Maybe some people are overly critical and asinine about those details, but I purchase games to enjoy them. If a game is enjoyable, yet is not exactly challenging, so what.

Granted, not everyone is going to enjoy the same types of games. So for some people, they may genuinely not enjoy Lair, but I enjoy it and that's good enough for me. If I can't convince anyone that the loathing reviews from some reviewers are horrible write ups that someone who introduced a lot of bias or is a noob to motion controls, then so be it. I tried.
In all honesty, sure it's not a game that is deserving of an Editor's Choice award or something, and doesn't necessarily deserve millions upon millions of copies sold, but it's enjoyable.

Can you name a game or two that in your opinion had bad controls? More than this Lair-specific discussion, I'm interested in the "Difficult Game vs. Bad Controls" issue that people are having.

I haven't played Lair, but one instance of terrible controls in recent memory was with Saint's Row. Not the entire game, but just the driving. It was so bad that I had to switch between two different default settings through the pause menu depending on whether I just wanted to drive the car or if I wanted to shoot something while in the car. It's easier shown than described, but imagine driving with the left analog stick & shoulder buttons while simultaneously aiming with the right analog stick and FIRING with the A button. I ONLY HAVE ONE RIGHT THUMB.

Those were some terrible controls that were undoubtedly not just there to increase the difficulty level. To me, it sounds like people are experiencing the same effect with terrible controls in Lair and you are chalking it up to it being part of the difficulty level. So I'm interested in what you personally think are some games with bad controls so I can get some perspective on your analysis vs. so many others'.

 

[Beev]

Yes, I have played Lair, for an hour or so. The controls flat out suck, and not just because they're "different."

 

[Randum]

Originally posted by: Sraaz
Yes, I have played Lair, for an hour or so. The controls flat out suck, and not just because they're "different."

I used the sixaxis with warhawk and i will never go back to using the sticks in that game. I am interested to see how lair uses it in comparison. For me, i could best compare it to the first time you used two analog sticks for an FPS. It was weird, and felt odd, but at the end of the day, worked out great, and everyone uses it.

I'll have to see if I cant rent a copy of either this weekend, I doubt it, but I'll try, or buy it used.

 

[purbeast0]

Originally posted by: Randum

Originally posted by: Sraaz
Yes, I have played Lair, for an hour or so. The controls flat out suck, and not just because they're "different."

I used the sixaxis with warhawk and i will never go back to using the sticks in that game. I am interested to see how lair uses it in comparison. For me, i could best compare it to the first time you used two analog sticks for an FPS. It was weird, and felt odd, but at the end of the day, worked out great, and everyone uses it.

I'll have to see if I cant rent a copy of either this weekend, I doubt it, but I'll try, or buy it used.

I dunno, most people I know who used two analog sticks for an FPS never had a problem with it. The only ones who seem to have problems with it are those who have only played PC games in the past.

I too would like to try Lair, I hope they put a demo out.

 

[CasioTech]

there is a demo out on PS3 consoles. Same with Heavenly Sword. All on the same demo disk.

 

[DanTMWTMP]

I don't understand why people say Lair has good graphics. It looks like total horsesh!t IMO (as in implementation, not the graphics engine/tools, but the implementation of models and such).

Nothing blends in (castle and ground..no transition. It looks like legos. Ocean and shore... no natural shoreline. The fires and explosions look crappy, and the background has a grainy look. I hate the grain (main reason why I avoided 99% of PS2 games, I couldn't survive 5 minutes looking at a PS2 game w/o getting a massive headache).

It has its moments (like the main characters' models, and indivitual dragon models), but overall, it looks pretty bad. The game isn't smooth, and during the moments where I would blast away and stuff would explode, the FPS dipped to almost 10. Nothing was over 40 fps (as it seemed).

This observation is when I played the demo they had at the Playstation booth at Comic Con 07.

oh, and the controls were a bit frustrating. It was a total chore to move around, and the boost move would come about at times when I didn't want it to come. Apparently, they fixed some of these problems? Either way, to me it's just a rental. I was sorely disappointed with the demo they had at comic con 07.

 

[purbeast0]

Originally posted by: DanTMWTMP
I don't understand why people say Lair has good graphics. It looks like total horsesh!t IMO (as in implementation, not the graphics engine/tools, but the implementation of models and such).

Nothing blends in (castle and ground..no transition. It looks like legos. Ocean and shore... no natural shoreline. The fires and explosions look crappy, and the background has a grainy look. I hate the grain (main reason why I avoided 99% of PS2 games, I couldn't survive 5 minutes looking at a PS2 game w/o getting a massive headache).

It has its moments (like the main characters' models, and indivitual dragon models), but overall, it looks pretty bad. The game isn't smooth, and during the moments where I would blast away and stuff would explode, the FPS dipped to almost 10. Nothing was over 40 fps (as it seemed).

This observation is when I played the demo they had at the Playstation booth at Comic Con 07.

oh, and the controls were a bit frustrating. It was a total chore to move around, and the boost move would come about at times when I didn't want it to come. Apparently, they fixed some of these problems? Either way, to me it's just a rental. I was sorely disappointed with the demo they had at comic con 07.

Far from the final version my friend ...

That's like people thinking motorstorm looks like crap because all they played was the Kiosk demo at Best Buy.

 

[CasioTech]

what a stupid post. Grainy PS2? Grainy PS3? Did it ever occur to you that you are viewing it from too close to see the grainy quality of these kinds of games?

If you don't like PS2, Lair, what games do you play? Virtua boy?

Lair is one of the most impressive looking titles to date.

 

[xboxist]

Graphics mean jack shit if the game isn't any fun to play. My hour with Lair was annoying, to say the least. And it's not just a failure to get used to the controls kind of thing. I got plenty used to them. And they were poorly implemented.

There were some nice moments of awe based on sheer scope (omg giant flying, realistic looking dragons!), but all in all the game left a negative impression on me. I have no interest to complete it.

 

[Takeoff250]

Originally posted by: CasioTech
what a stupid post. Grainy PS2? Grainy PS3? Did it ever occur to you that you are viewing it from too close to see the grainy quality of these kinds of games?

If you don't like PS2, Lair, what games do you play? Virtua boy?

Lair is one of the most impressive looking titles to date.

Lair is far from the most impressive looking title to date.. maybe the ps3 is not powerfull enough?

 

[VashHT]

Meh, I rented Lair, the controls don't suck at all, and I would say anyone who says they do just suck at it and want to blame something. You can be killed pretty quickly in the game, but the controls are pretty damn easy to get a hang of. That said, I don't like the game anyway, so don't think I am defending it. One thing that I absolutely hate on it is that if you die on some levels they force you to watch the cinematic over again, and hen the cinematic is like 5 minutes long and the level is pretty hard then it gets old really fast. Also, there are quite a few times when objectives are not clear at all, or you are given a new objective before your last is completed, but they still want you to finish the old one. I didn't have a problem with the controls at all, so I'm not sure what the huge complaints are, but I don't think the reviews are very fair either. 6 or 7 seems more fair for it, 4.5 seems like a ridiculous low blow to me. The graphics are really bad at some points, where the FR drops into the 10s or so, but most of the time they are top notch and look great. Of course this doesn't matter due to all the annoyances with the game, I couldn't force myself to beat the game.

 

[Beev]

Never once did I say they weren't easy to use. They just suck. I recently picked up Metroid prime 3, and it's controls are intuitive and just flat out good. Lair's are overly... noticeable. All it would have taken to fix the entire damn game would be an option to just use the basic controls sticks to move. That's it. And if there's option for that buried in the options, or it gets added later, I will definitely try it again.

 

[randay]

man i thought with the delay they were gonna do soemthing about the ccontrols, factor 5, you are teh suck.

 

[bucwylde23]

Well I played the demo for heavenly sword and am looking forward to playing the full game. It might get old after a while but definitely will be fun enough to give it a try.

 

[DanTMWTMP]

Originally posted by: Takeoff250

Originally posted by: CasioTech
what a stupid post. Grainy PS2? Grainy PS3? Did it ever occur to you that you are viewing it from too close to see the grainy quality of these kinds of games?

If you don't like PS2, Lair, what games do you play? Virtua boy?

Lair is one of the most impressive looking titles to date.

Lair is far from the most impressive looking title to date.. maybe the ps3 is not powerfull enough?

wow. so what is considered not a stupid post aside from your biased arrogant BS you spew around here casio?

There is no argument that most PS2 games were overly grainy. Lair is grainy when you're in a level that has a far viewing distance. I hate grainy graphics, and no, I don't sit 2 feet away from my TV.

Lair is not the most impressive looking thing to date. Definitely not. The in-game cutscenes look wonderful, but the full-blown battle scenes and scenery look horrible (more likely due to level design). Coupled w/ lower FPS, it just doesn't look good period. The controls suck, and it's just a plain shooter.

Why are you defending a game that you even have yet to touch and see in person?

And why do graphics alone matter so much to you?

 

[Dumac]

Lol ITT PS3 owner tries to defend himself from 360 owners and the occasional Wii owner to make himself believed his purchase of a PS3 was worth it.

j/j

PS: I own all three, I will probably rent both Lair and Heavenly Sword.

 

[CasioTech]

I noticed grainy games in every 360 whilst standing in front of an LCD. You need to run it on a projection or sit atleast 10 feet from a decent sized TV. The LCD's are far to sharp and grainy quality is noticable on all games.




I dont' play much PS2 only GC, which isn't grainy at all. PS2 never had the best graphics and doesn't have the best anti aliasing. Is that what you mean by grainy???

I am totally unbiased. I own DC, GBA, GC, Xbox original at one point, PS3, PS2, Wii (new addition) I can honestly say GC is the best in value and gameplay/graphics ratio/production values.

 

[CasioTech]

Originally posted by: Dumac
Lol ITT PS3 owner tries to defend himself from 360 owners and the occasional Wii owner to make himself believed his purchase of a PS3 was worth it.

j/j

PS: I own all three, I will probably rent both Lair and Heavenly Sword.

except I would have a 360 if it wasn't such a POS. There is no more room to grow on 360, whereas the PS3 still has potential. PS3 FTW!

 

[Dumac]

Originally posted by: CasioTech

Originally posted by: Dumac
Lol ITT PS3 owner tries to defend himself from 360 owners and the occasional Wii owner to make himself believed his purchase of a PS3 was worth it.

j/j

PS: I own all three, I will probably rent both Lair and Heavenly Sword.

except I would have a 360 if it wasn't such a POS. There is no more room to grow on 360, whereas the PS3 still has potential. PS3 FTW!

Lol, I've been over the console hating stage. I <3 all my systems, despite each having inherent flaws.

 

[destrekor]

Originally posted by: Dumac

Originally posted by: CasioTech

Originally posted by: Dumac
Lol ITT PS3 owner tries to defend himself from 360 owners and the occasional Wii owner to make himself believed his purchase of a PS3 was worth it.

j/j

PS: I own all three, I will probably rent both Lair and Heavenly Sword.

except I would have a 360 if it wasn't such a POS. There is no more room to grow on 360, whereas the PS3 still has potential. PS3 FTW!

Lol, I've been over the console hating stage. I <3 all my systems, despite each having inherent flaws.

I hate no console.
I have a Wii and a 360, and until the 360 is real cheap it merely serves no purpose. I have a gaming PC as well, and all the games I like that are on the 360 are released for the PC at the same time (unless Microsoft has a hand in the process).
And I definitely am one to know the PS3 hasn't had great games, but alas some are enjoyable and this Fall should provide many a great gaming moment. My Wii has actually gone untouched for awhile, even though I want to pick it back up since I'm in the middle of a dungeon in Zelda.

 

[Aikouka]

Originally posted by: CasioTech
except I would have a 360 if it wasn't such a POS. There is no more room to grow on 360, whereas the PS3 still has potential. PS3 FTW!

No more room to grow? What are you trying to grow... a plant garden inside the box? Yes, we already know the 360 is cramped like a family going to the sumo convention in a VW Beetle.

Dare I destroy your dreams? Answer me this... how does one produce a good, efficient AI system on Cell when the SPUs lack branch prediction?

I highly doubt either console will deviate from each other graphically.

 

[BD2003]

Originally posted by: Aikouka

Originally posted by: CasioTech
except I would have a 360 if it wasn't such a POS. There is no more room to grow on 360, whereas the PS3 still has potential. PS3 FTW!

No more room to grow? What are you trying to grow... a plant garden inside the box? Yes, we already know the 360 is cramped like a family going to the sumo convention in a VW Beetle.

Dare I destroy your dreams? Answer me this... how does one produce a good, efficient AI system on Cell when the SPUs lack branch prediction?

I highly doubt either console will deviate from each other graphically.

Although itd be pretty much impossible to do on the SPUs, one could make the argument that by offloading onto the SPUs those tasks that it's good at (Physics, geometry, sound), it frees up the primary CPU to handle those non-brute force tasks like AI. Whereas the 360 just has those three general purpose cores to handle it all.

On the other hand, having to do all that manual labor of multithreading seven ways is a significant pain in the ass for the developers.

Either way, the PS3's won't reach its potential if it never manages to push enough systems to reach that critical mass of install base for developers to care enough - until then, you'll continue to see stuff like the madden 30/60fps.


Anyways, to address the OP, games are beginning to reach that point that movies reached decades ago, where critics are becoming more and more irrelevant to anyone who isnt basically a critic themselves.

Lair and HS are popcorn games. Just special effects showcases. You said it yourself - its shallow. For many people, thats enough. For some people, notably critics, it isnt.

The only problem with this equation is that movies cost $10-15, whereas these games are $60 purchases on a $600 system. One would expect a little bit more for their money.

 

[CasioTech]

I think games today are better than movies made in 1997. Wait, actually the xbox came out in 2005. What good movies did we have in 1995? Either way $15 for a movie that will give you two hours of joy isn't worth it compared to $60 for a game (which will be $40 in a month or two that will give you 40+ hours of fun and joy).




Also, ps3 isn't only $600. If you get a 20gb preowned it's less than $300.

 

[Ackmed]

Originally posted by: BD2003
Lair and HS are popcorn games. Just special effects showcases. You said it yourself - its shallow. For many people, thats enough. For some people, notably critics, it isnt.

(bolded mine)

Please check your facts, before posting. You are wrong. Ive already proven that critics/reviewers gave HS great reviews.

http://www.gamestats.com/objec.../700186//articles.html

Originally posted by: CasioTech
I think games today are better than movies made in 1997. Wait, actually the xbox came out in 2005. What good movies did we have in 1995? Either way $15 for a movie that will give you two hours of joy isn't worth it compared to $60 for a game (which will be $40 in a month or two that will give you 40+ hours of fun and joy).

Uh, movies are like $5.50 for a matinee, and $8.50 otherwise. I can think of many good movies that came out in 1995.

Games also have tax.. which would put a $60 game at about $65.50 around here. Not all games give you "40+ hours of fun and joy". Some games are over in 8 hours, with no multiplayer. Not all games are good, and you cant always return them. In fact, most of the time you cant, except for the same game. So you're screwed.

You can make the argument either way, just dont be so bias and one-sided with your argument.

 

[CasioTech]

Yeah, in that case, why don't you post all the $10 360 games that are on GS? What about $5 PS2 games that surely you can play forever and ever...?




Virtua Fighter 4 is $5. That's one of 1000.