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Krugman VS the market

Doppel

Doppel

Lifer
Apologize for this being on NY Times, I ripped a blurb off another blog:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/05/o...on.html?_r=4&smid=tw-NytimesKrugman&seid=auto

Krugman:

I don’t mean to dismiss concerns about the long-run U.S. budget picture. If you look at fiscal prospects over, say, the next 20 years, they are indeed deeply worrying, largely because of rising health-care costs. But the experience of the past two years has overwhelmingly confirmed what some of us tried to argue from the beginning: The deficits we’re running right now — deficits we should be running, because deficit spending helps support a depressed economy — are no threat at all.

And by obsessing over a nonexistent threat, Washington has been making the real problem — mass unemployment, which is eating away at the foundations of our nation — much worse.
Click to expand...

VS

The Market:

http://www.cnbc.com/id/44397053/

Europe's sovereign debt crisis will stunt bank profits for years and could kill off the weakest, Deutsche Bank Chief Executive Josef Ackermann warned
Click to expand...

http://www.cnbc.com/id/44397643

Today the market in Europe is being torn asunder once again.
 
You do realize that Krugman was talking about US deficits in that post and your other link is about Europe, right?

When it comes to the US debt, Krugman has been right over and over and over again.
 
eskimospy said:
You do realize that Krugman was talking about US deficits in that post and your other link is about Europe, right?

When it comes to the US debt, Krugman has been right over and over and over again.
Click to expand...
Yes, but the US markets aren't open today and in any case other than the piigs the US is no better off than the rest of Europe.
 
Krugman is another liberal hypocrite. Sure when it comes to tax for the rich, we gotta tax them more to reduce deficit. But when it comes to deficit spending on big programs, oh deficit doesn't matter. Notice how he cites austerity/spending cuts will hurt economy and then talk about Senator Ben Nelson and his "cool $1.3 trillion" Bush tax cut like those don't help economy and taking away those won't hurt the economy?
 
eskimospy said:
When it comes to the US debt, Krugman has been right over and over and over again.
Click to expand...

When the policy comes down to Spend Spend Spend!, it's easy to see the fallacies buried within. Krugman and company must hate the poor, to advocate the printing of the dollar. For when the dollar is devalued your food and energy prices skyrocket.

How difficult is it for you, to witness your own policy as a direct assault on Americans?
 
Jaskalas said:
When the policy comes down to Spend Spend Spend!, it's easy to see the fallacies buried within. Krugman and company must hate the poor, to advocate the printing of the dollar. For when the dollar is devalued your food and energy prices skyrocket.

How difficult is it for you, to witness your own policy as a direct assault on Americans?
Click to expand...

A <3% annual inflation rate is not what has assaulted the poor over the past 30 years.
 
rchiu said:
Krugman is another liberal hypocrite. Sure when it comes to tax for the rich, we gotta tax them more to reduce deficit. But when it comes to deficit spending on big programs, oh deficit doesn't matter. Notice how he cites austerity/spending cuts will hurt economy and then talk about Senator Ben Nelson and his "cool $1.3 trillion" Bush tax cut like those don't help economy and taking away those won't hurt the economy?
Click to expand...

You're very confused (again).

Yes, wealth distribution - excessive concentration of wealth - is a huge problem.

There's nothing 'hypocritcal' in his saying that with his other positions.

The Bush tax cuts being *weighted for the rich* is a problem. You can't tell the difference between weighted for the rich, and not weighted for the rich.

As I recall, Krugman - someone who can tell that difference - supported *a* tax cut when Bush passed his to help with recovery - just one differently weighted.

And in fact, tax cuts for the rich do NOT help the economy nearly as much as other policies.

Studies find, as I recall, a dollar in tax cuts for the rich return 22 cents to the government in economic benefits; other programs return more than a dollar.
 
Gonad the Barbarian said:
A <3% annual inflation rate is not what has assaulted the poor over the past 30 years.
Click to expand...

I suspected you would. That number, the 'official' one, discounting food and energy? Yes.. who needs those? Maybe the poor.

Oh, but wait, there's more.

Prices for clothes and supplies are up an average of 10 percent because the price of raw materials has increased an average of 27 percent since last year.
Click to expand...

Back to my point. You CAN discount what has occurred up until now. The printing before is infinitesimal compared to the printing required for your future programs. This next trillion will weigh heavier than those before it, with fewer countries buying your debt. You'll be printing more of it.

The first $5 trillion since 2008 has resulted in our present economy. Doing great isn't it? So great that you claim to need $5 trillion MORE! It's lunacy and lies to think you're going to tax and spend your way out of this one. The reason it's taking so long to recover is precisely DUE to your policies.

Not since the great depression has the government meddled so much. Not since the great depression have our people suffered so much. The chicken did not come before the egg, your meddling has lead directly to this. Your solution? Double down. Make the people suffer worse.

The President and company will claim just a 'small' amount today. Maybe $1 trillion more. Then another, and another. The debt and the deficit knows no bounds with this policy. The dollar WILL suffer, and our people along with it.

A cold, starving, and homeless people will not care about the rich's 'official' inflation number. Their homes and investments are devalued, oh boo hoo! You can only hide behind it for so long.
 
Krugman is right, again.
Before you rightwingers criticize him, look in the mirror. Realize that current economic conditions are happening with the Bush tax rates that your ilk were telling us would stimulate the economy. So you have no leg to stand on when criticizing Krugman on stimulus. If anything, it's an indicator that Krugman is right, since the right has gotten it wrong time and time again.
 
Jaskalas said:
I suspected you would. That number, the 'official' one, discounting food and energy? Yes.. who needs those? Maybe the poor.

Oh, but wait, there's more.



Back to my point. You CAN discount what has occurred up until now. The printing before is infinitesimal compared to the printing required for your future programs. This next trillion will weigh heavier than those before it, with fewer countries buying your debt. You'll be printing more of it.

The first $5 trillion since 2008 has resulted in our present economy. Doing great isn't it? So great that you claim to need $5 trillion MORE! It's lunacy and lies to think you're going to tax and spend your way out of this one. The reason it's taking so long to recover is precisely DUE to your policies.

Not since the great depression has the government meddled so much. Not since the great depression have our people suffered so much. The chicken did not come before the egg, your meddling has lead directly to this. Your solution? Double down. Make the people suffer worse.

The President and company will claim just a 'small' amount today. Maybe $1 trillion more. Then another, and another. The debt and the deficit knows no bounds with this policy. The dollar WILL suffer, and our people along with it.

A cold, starving, and homeless people will not care about the rich's 'official' inflation number. Their homes and investments are devalued, oh boo hoo! You can only hide behind it for so long.
Click to expand...

Prices on things go up for reasons other than currency devaluation. There's that whole supply/demand thing you know.
 
rchiu said:
Krugman is another liberal hypocrite. Sure when it comes to tax for the rich, we gotta tax them more to reduce deficit. But when it comes to deficit spending on big programs, oh deficit doesn't matter. Notice how he cites austerity/spending cuts will hurt economy and then talk about Senator Ben Nelson and his "cool $1.3 trillion" Bush tax cut like those don't help economy and taking away those won't hurt the economy?
Click to expand...

You really need to try to understand the concept of a liquidity trap, which is what we have today.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-...ty-of-another-liquidity-trap-brad-delong.html

The only escape is over very long time periods or via govt spending, which can be financed by borrowing, taxing, or some combination of the two.

Money taken as taxes from the wealthy today has no negative impact on the economy, simply because it would otherwise have been stashed as near zero yield govt bonds or as cash, not invested (risked) in productive endeavors nor spent directly into circulation at all. That's the part righties tend to ignore, even deny- that the inordinate accumulation of income & wealth at the tippytop is actually bad for the economy, that it's basically hoarding.
 
Jaskalas said:
I suspected you would. That number, the 'official' one, discounting food and energy? Yes.. who needs those? Maybe the poor.

Oh, but wait, there's more.



Back to my point. You CAN discount what has occurred up until now. The printing before is infinitesimal compared to the printing required for your future programs. This next trillion will weigh heavier than those before it, with fewer countries buying your debt. You'll be printing more of it.

The first $5 trillion since 2008 has resulted in our present economy. Doing great isn't it? So great that you claim to need $5 trillion MORE! It's lunacy and lies to think you're going to tax and spend your way out of this one. The reason it's taking so long to recover is precisely DUE to your policies.

Not since the great depression has the government meddled so much. Not since the great depression have our people suffered so much. The chicken did not come before the egg, your meddling has lead directly to this. Your solution? Double down. Make the people suffer worse.

The President and company will claim just a 'small' amount today. Maybe $1 trillion more. Then another, and another. The debt and the deficit knows no bounds with this policy. The dollar WILL suffer, and our people along with it.

A cold, starving, and homeless people will not care about the rich's 'official' inflation number. Their homes and investments are devalued, oh boo hoo! You can only hide behind it for so long.
Click to expand...

We agree on the desire to help the American people not be impoverished.

The question is the method - the progressive 'People's Budget', which balances the budget faster than any other proposed budgets thereby reducing the issue of 'printing more money' and increasing the inflation you say you're worried about, is a good start.

Your argument against stimulus is really weak.

It's like saying if robbers break into your house and are stealing, and someone throws a pillow at them, you say 'look what that got us - robbed - and you want to do MORE, pulling a gun on them?' Why, yes, doing more is better, and a half-ass measure is not proof against that.

The stimulus has helped; more would help more.

You clearly still don't understand after it's been explained over and over why deficit spending in this situation is beneficial.

How having the nation more employed, preserving the economy instead of the cycle of crashing, helps.

You have all kinds of options to have that hurt the debt less - reduce bad spending, close corrupt loopholes, increase taxation on the rich who have thrived.

If you haven't understood it yet, I don't know what would help. You think giving the keys to the corporatist Republicans will help the people against the rich?
 
Doppel said:
Isn't it possible to have both?
Click to expand...

What are your qualifications to even comment on such things? Have you taken any courses in economics? Have you studied economics for any length of time? Or maybe you learned everything from youtube links?
 
Yeah exactly. Why should we let any of you retarded fucks tinker with the economy based on your gut. What kind of idiots are you?
 
Krugman was right two years ago. He was basically patted on the head, then ignored and our half-scale stimulus got us back to zero. To need growth we need a full scale stimulus CCC type hiring, just like in the Depression. As shown by the August job numbers, the cut back in government employment is wrecking the economy.

Krugman is also correct that the deficit is a problem for a few years down the road.

Unfortunately it is almost certain Krugman will be ignored again-not because Obama disagrees with him, but any stimulus to increase employment is a no-starter with the grand old teabag party.
 
Gonad the Barbarian said:
A <3% annual inflation rate is not what has assaulted the poor over the past 30 years.
Click to expand...
The money they've been saving for retirement now being worth 40% of what it was 30 years ago isn't an assault on the poor? Not saying it is the only problem they have to contend with, but inflation certainly doesn't help the poor, it's incredibly regressive. What little money they could afford to set aside and save is devalued significantly.

Also, depending on the basket of goods used, annual inflation rate is a lot higher than 3%. Government loves to fudge the figures, they changed how it was calculated back in the 80s I think, probably to make price inflation look less severe than it actually is.
 
JSt0rm said:
What are your qualifications to even comment on such things? Have you taken any courses in economics? Have you studied economics for any length of time? Or maybe you learned everything from youtube links?
Click to expand...
This is the same stupid question you asked somebody yesterday. Is that how you debate people simply call into question their credentials? What are yours? Actually, I really do not care.

http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=32225301&postcount=122

Do I need to scour the forums finding posts you've opined on and yet lack a PHD in? Troll elsewhere.

Unless you're actually an expert on healthcare
http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2166819&highlight=

an expert on banking
http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2138222&highlight=

an expert on homeland security
http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2123275&highlight=

etc.
 
Thump553 said:
Krugman was right two years ago. He was basically patted on the head, then ignored and our half-scale stimulus got us back to zero. To need growth we need a full scale stimulus CCC type hiring, just like in the Depression. As shown by the August job numbers, the cut back in government employment is wrecking the economy.

Krugman is also correct that the deficit is a problem for a few years down the road.

Unfortunately it is almost certain Krugman will be ignored again-not because Obama disagrees with him, but any stimulus to increase employment is a no-starter with the grand old teabag party.
Click to expand...

He was right about the housing bubble back in 2005, and right about a lot of stuff over the years, like this-

http://www.slate.com/id/1910/

It's all fine and good to disagree with Krugman, but one needs to be careful to do so wrt to what he's actually written, rather than what some right wing spin tank says he's written. There really is a difference. His blog-

http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/
 
Doppel said:
This is the same stupid question you asked somebody yesterday. Is that how you debate people simply call into question their credentials? What are yours? Actually, I really do not care.

http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=32225301&postcount=122

Do I need to scour the forums finding posts you've opined on and yet lack a PHD in? Troll elsewhere.

Unless you're actually an expert on healthcare
http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2166819&highlight=

an expert on banking
http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2138222&highlight=

an expert on homeland security
http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2123275&highlight=

etc.
Click to expand...

And if you disagree with him on anything, he starts launching personal attacks.
 
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