Krugman, debt, and growth

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First

Lifer
Jun 3, 2002
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Yes it does but it comes at the cost of eating up savings

Except as I mentioned before, it's a better alternative because oversaving leads to reduced spending, which leads to lower output and employment. 2/3rds of GDP is pure spending.

and harming people on fixed incomes (aka poor and elderly).

The poor and elderly are worse off with deflation so the point is moot. Additionally, interest-bearing savings more than make up for inflation. Average returns for any 30 year period in U.S. history over the last 200 years is 6% annually. Inflation is a third of that.

How is this even considered a positive? Having to demand higher wages to keep up with inflation is in no way a positive for the average person. In fact it is nothing more then a rat race for wages to keep up with inflation.

I don't think you grasp the concept all that well. Without increases in the general level of prices it becomes more difficult for laborers to demand higher wages. Their position is weakened in a salary negotiation, as it were. I can help you understand this with links if you like, but it isn't the least bit controversial.

This is further emphasized when wages cannot keep up with inflation (in addition to the devaluation of our currency) and you start to see the cost of living going up beyond the reach of the average person.

Please see the following graph, listed earlier in the thread, if you're still confused:

avg-income-2006.jpg


Wages have kept up with inflation, plus a ton.

It is funny how you would mention that "psychology" is an important part of our economic system meanwhile you have individuals here who deride the Austrian school of economics and its focus on human action which includes understanding the psychology of economics and its on the economy as a whole.

Except Austrians don't have the first clue about the psychology of economic actions, which is why they are laughed out of 99% of all research institutions at home and abroad.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
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The extremely poor understanding of money shown in this thread is staggering.

The first thing we need to understand is that inflation encourages investment. Otherwise, in periods of low demand, like today, wealth holders prefer liquidity over risk, and will simply sit on their money. When that slides into deflationary territory, their money gains value at zero risk, and cascading effects ensue. For debtors, severe deflation means that the more you pay, the more you owe in terms of value, and debtors rapidly end up deeper in the hole as wages fall as well.

Irving Fisher laid it out in 1934-

http://fraser.stlouisfed.org/docs/meltzer/fisdeb33.pdf

It's a long & deep read, but I'd encourage anybody who thinks they want a rational understanding of macro to read it.

It's also important to understand that all of the money in the world was created by governments' borrowing. Govt debt & private money exist in equilibrium, mirror images of each other. The fact that govts borrow to create new money is a holdover from the gold standard, and interest paid amounts to compensation to wealth holders for dilution of the value of their money. Govt spending of borrowed money puts it back into the economy at times when it would otherwise simply be hoarded. And for the holders of such money, the more they hoard the more valuable it becomes, simply because nobody else has any.

That's the simplified version.
 

xBiffx

Diamond Member
Aug 22, 2011
8,232
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The extremely poor understanding of money shown in this thread is staggering.

By all means take the elitist stance. I didn't think that the discussion was about money but rather economics as a whole. Money is easy to understand. Economics, inflation, and and understanding of them over time is a bit more difficult. But go ahead, talk down to people and then expect them to listen to you, works everytime.
 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
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Link to source? Where are you getting that real purchasing power increased?
The printing to infinity solution you propose is not novel, Germany and Zimbabwe already tried it and it failed spectacularly. What you're effectively doing is rewarding debt binging, while discouraging savings and capital formation. Such a policy forces one to hand over his money to fund Wall St gambling, or risk living in poverty after retirement. It's policies like this that have dug us into a debt hole so far down that the only option now is to keep digging and printing, because any deflation would inevitably detonate the system.

I really get tired of people using Germany as some example of "printing infinity" and somehow it's supposed to apply to the US. It's like you think that ALL printing is horrible and results in Germany.

If you can't, in a single sentence, describe how Germany's printing is wholly unrelated to any modern printing, then you don't even deserve a seat at this, or any, monetary debate.

Same with Zimbabwe.
 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
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That does not address the price of goods and services. If you're trying to say that it does, I'd like to see how they arrive at that conclusion, not just copy-and-pasting a single graph.

Are you fucking kidding me? Do you not understand the idea of inflation adjusted purchasing power? It's adjusted for inflation in goods and services.

This is EXACTLY why anybody rational considers people like you as utterly uninformed. It's because you are and you are dangerously ignorant about it.
 

xBiffx

Diamond Member
Aug 22, 2011
8,232
2
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Are you fucking kidding me? Do you not understand the idea of inflation adjusted purchasing power? It's adjusted for inflation in goods and services.

This is EXACTLY why anybody rational considers people like you as utterly uninformed. It's because you are and you are dangerously ignorant about it.

Try reading some more before hurling insults. We already covered this.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
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By all means take the elitist stance. I didn't think that the discussion was about money but rather economics as a whole. Money is easy to understand. Economics, inflation, and and understanding of them over time is a bit more difficult. But go ahead, talk down to people and then expect them to listen to you, works everytime.

If money were easy to understand, you would, but you don't, and that's entirely voluntary on your part, an artifact of your ideology. You already seem to believe that govt finances & personal finance work the same way, when they clearly don't.

Attacking me won't change that, particularly when you fail to address the points made.
 

xBiffx

Diamond Member
Aug 22, 2011
8,232
2
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If money were easy to understand, you would, but you don't, and that's entirely voluntary on your part, an artifact of your ideology. You already seem to believe that govt finances & personal finance work the same way, when they clearly don't.

Attacking me won't change that, particularly when you fail to address the points made.

Yet again, you formulate an opinion with no facts. You know me? You know what I know? Again, your being arrogantly presumptuous, but I'm not surprised. By the way I didn't attack you. You act like you know everything and everyone else is stupid and ignorant. Guess you really don't understand how to get people to listen to you and perhaps help them understand something better.
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
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It definitely addresses the price of goods and services, that's what inflation and inflation adjustment is.

By comparing prices on the CPI between years we can see what a dollar buys in 1990 vs say... 2006. Or in this case a hundred years ago and today. By any reasonable measure the purchasing power of the average American is vastly higher today than it was in the past despite the dollar being worth much less per unit.

That is in fact the primary way in which people declare that the dollar has lost X percent of its value, btw.

The reason their purchasing power is greater today than 100 years ago has nothing to do with inflation. The reason their purchasing power is less today than it was 10 years ago has EVERYTHING to do with inflation.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
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The reason their purchasing power is greater today than 100 years ago has nothing to do with inflation. The reason their purchasing power is less today than it was 10 years ago has EVERYTHING to do with inflation.

I'm not sure what your point is other than to reiterate the widely known fact that inflation erodes purchasing power.

Most economists agree that modest, sustained inflation is a good thing for the economy. It acts as an enabler.
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
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No, inflation has a documentably positive effect:

1) Reduces burden of future debts.

No. It reduces the burden of existing

2) Encourages laborers to demand wage increases as nominal prices increase.

But they don't actually gain any purchasing power from the pay raises they demand due to inflation. If they don't get those pay raises or the aren't enough to keep up then they lose purchasing power and are actually poorer despite technically making more money.
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
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Except as I mentioned before, it's a better alternative because oversaving leads to reduced spending, which leads to lower output and employment. 2/3rds of GDP is pure spending.

Who is talking about oversaving? We are talking about saving in general and right now I don't know anyone who can say we are "oversaving" with a straight face. Our current policies discourage any savings and virtually force people to put their money into much riskier investments. Capital formation is a good thing but right now you actually lose wealth by sticking it in a bank.

The poor and elderly are worse off with deflation so the point is moot. Additionally, interest-bearing savings more than make up for inflation. Average returns for any 30 year period in U.S. history over the last 200 years is 6% annually. Inflation is a third of that.

Would they be worse off with stable prices?

I don't think you grasp the concept all that well. Without increases in the general level of prices it becomes more difficult for laborers to demand higher wages. Their position is weakened in a salary negotiation, as it were. I can help you understand this with links if you like, but it isn't the least bit controversial.

I would really like to see links on that if you don't mind. Frankly I don't know if we have a good "reference" to go by but perhaps they are right. It just doesn't make sense in my mind, workers tend to get real wage increases (above and beyond inflation so they actually have more purchasing power) from increases in their productivity. An increase simply to match inflation is a zero sum game and recently wages have not kept up with inflation.

Please see the following graph, listed earlier in the thread, if you're still confused:

avg-income-2006.jpg


Wages have kept up with inflation, plus a ton.

Very true but productivity has also shot up in that time frame, if we want to use that time period as a metric then what about our historic average for bond prices? What does that do to our cost of servicing the insane amount of debt we continue to accumulate at record speed?

I know this wasn't a direct response to me but for the most part I am talking about very recent history (within the last 10 years)
 

First

Lifer
Jun 3, 2002
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No. It reduces the burden of existing

This is a minor nitpick. But no, it also reduces future debts if inflation is constantly increasing 2%/yr. Existing debt too, of course, but 2% is compounded annually so it has a snowballing effect of reducing future debt burdens.

But they don't actually gain any purchasing power from the pay raises they demand due to inflation. If they don't get those pay raises or the aren't enough to keep up then they lose purchasing power and are actually poorer despite technically making more money.

Nope, they do indeed gain purchasing power if they were to, for example, get a 4% pay raise when inflation is 2%. Not a particularly unlikely scenario on average.

Who is talking about oversaving? We are talking about saving in general and right now I don't know anyone who can say we are "oversaving" with a straight face.

I'm not saying, anywhere, that we have oversaved as a nation. I'm saying saving past a certain point, as a general rule, makes no sense. For example, the multitude of books and radio shows out there emphasizing being debt free, as in $0 in debt, hurts people's ability to actually use their money. Those that can responsibly use it, that is. Spending is vital to any economy, this is a universal law that outstrips any "law of exponents" that isn't even applicable to economic realities.

Our current policies discourage any savings and virtually force people to put their money into much riskier investments. Capital formation is a good thing but right now you actually lose wealth by sticking it in a bank.

Poor returns in bank CDs isn't exactly unique in American history. In fact, I question the intelligence of any saving money in a bank looking for a good return. Mutual and index funds are far more sensible and far exceed inflation on average.

Would they be worse off with stable prices?

2% is a stable price. 0% makes no sense, it becomes much harder to justify higher prices in an economy with no inflation. Just as it becomes much harder to justify pay increases. This is yet another universally well known economic reality of the psychology of people (well, at least Americans).

I would really like to see links on that if you don't mind. Frankly I don't know if we have a good "reference" to go by but perhaps they are right. It just doesn't make sense in my mind, workers tend to get real wage increases (above and beyond inflation so they actually have more purchasing power) from increases in their productivity. An increase simply to match inflation is a zero sum game and recently wages have not kept up with inflation.

I'll try to find some links for you when I get a sec. Prolly next week, I'll have to look over some old textbooks as a google search doesn't list the texts online for reference.

Very true but productivity has also shot up in that time frame, if we want to use that time period as a metric then what about our historic average for bond prices? What does that do to our cost of servicing the insane amount of debt we continue to accumulate at record speed?

Sorry I'm not sure what kind of point you're trying to make here?

I know this wasn't a direct response to me but for the most part I am talking about very recent history (within the last 10 years)

Fair enough, though my personal rule of thumb is to take a long term view, as I rarely take <10 year trends too seriously.
 

nobodyknows

Diamond Member
Sep 28, 2008
5,474
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I don't understand this incessant need of some people to blame the economy all on Obama. It went to hell under Bush and we're lucky it didn't tank worse then it did.
 

Joepublic2

Golden Member
Jan 22, 2005
1,114
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Except as I mentioned before, it's a better alternative because oversaving leads to reduced spending, which leads to lower output and employment. 2/3rds of GDP is pure spending.

Is there any evidence that a stabilized money supply would actually lead to decreased investment (no net devaluation of a unit of money; only creating new money when new wealth is created for that money to represent)? With inflation and zero percent interest there's a huge incentive to put money into investments; I would argue that a stabilized money supply would lead to a sharp decrease in the number of BAD investments and financial pyramid schemes which is in no way a bad thing for society as a whole.

The poor and elderly are worse off with deflation so the point is moot. Additionally, interest-bearing savings more than make up for inflation. Average returns for any 30 year period in U.S. history over the last 200 years is 6% annually. Inflation is a third of that.

How are the poor and elderly (for the sake of arguments let's say everybody on minimum wage and social security) worse off with deflation? They have a fixed $$$ coming in and virtually no savings/investments so the raw dollar being worth more is only going to increase their purchasing power. Again, I don't believe that govt reported inflation rates are at all accurate because they have every incentive to cook the books for political gain AND to reduce their entitlement payouts AND effectively tax the entire money supply to reduce their debt burden.

I don't think you grasp the concept all that well. Without increases in the general level of prices it becomes more difficult for laborers to demand higher wages. Their position is weakened in a salary negotiation, as it were. I can help you understand this with links if you like, but it isn't the least bit controversial.

Laborers wouldn't have to demand "higher" wages and raises if inflation didn't cause their real wages to continuously fall in the first place.

Please see the following graph, listed earlier in the thread, if you're still confused:

avg-income-2006.jpg


Wages have kept up with inflation, plus a ton.

That graph is a massive oversimplification of the story of wages in this country. A much more honest representation is this one:

http://stateofworkingamerica.org/who-gains/#/?start=1917&end=2008

You can easily see how top heavy the economy has become over the last 40 years with this chart (and inflation is a huge contributor to this). The average person has only seen a modest increase in income over the past 100 years after factoring in inflation compared to the wealthiest families in this country, accelerating around 1970.

We have more junk now, but that's offset by the fact that we have a lot more debt as well. Putting aside issues of fairness, I'd argue that the overall amount of wealth in society would have grown much, much faster if the average person had access to a greater % of that wealth and directly reinvested it into goods and services because it would create a positive feedback loop; the more disposable income a person has the greater their demand for goods and services becomes, but only to a point. For example, I would buy maybe 5 or 6 or 7 cars if I was ultra rich but I'd never buy 1000 no matter how much money I have. I would buy an opulent 100k square foot mansion but I wouldn't buy 100 100k square foot mansions no matter HOW much money I had.

The ultra rich spend a smaller fraction of their wealth on actual tangible goods and services. Sure, they can always invest it into more production but if there's no demand to meet that production you end up with a warehouse full of goods with nobody to buy them or restaurants with nobody to eat in them or a parking lot full of cars with nobody to buy them. Even if you offered everybody all these goods and services at just 1% above costs nobody would buy them if they don't have any disposable income (or being able to borrow money to buy them *cough* *cough*).

Most of the growth in demand for the better half of the last 100 years has been fueled solely by debt. So yeah, this is the essence of why "supply side economics", "trickle-down economic theory" and an "inflationary economy" are bullshit.

Anyway, the last part of my reply/rant wasn't directed at anybody in particular; just advocates of completely unrestrained capitalism I guess.
 
Dec 30, 2004
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IMHO Krugman is a partisan shill. His ideas don't make any sense from a macroeconomic perspective. I'm not sure how he has been allowed to get to where he is now given how disconnected from reality a lot of his notions are.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,084
48,097
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IMHO Krugman is a partisan shill. His ideas don't make any sense from a macroeconomic perspective. I'm not sure how he has been allowed to get to where he is now given how disconnected from reality a lot of his notions are.

That's because you don't understand economics.
 

the DRIZZLE

Platinum Member
Sep 6, 2007
2,956
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This is a minor nitpick. But no, it also reduces future debts if inflation is constantly increasing 2%/yr. Existing debt too, of course, but 2% is compounded annually so it has a snowballing effect of reducing future debt burdens.

No, you are the one who is incorrect. Expected inflation has no effect on future debts because it is priced in to interest rates. Only unexpected inflation decreases the real value of debts.

Nope, they do indeed gain purchasing power if they were to, for example, get a 4% pay raise when inflation is 2%. Not a particularly unlikely scenario on average.

The point is that inflation does not increase real wages. Saying that inflation causes wages to grow faster than inflation makes no sense.

I'm not saying, anywhere, that we have oversaved as a nation. I'm saying saving past a certain point, as a general rule, makes no sense. For example, the multitude of books and radio shows out there emphasizing being debt free, as in $0 in debt, hurts people's ability to actually use their money. Those that can responsibly use it, that is. Spending is vital to any economy, this is a universal law that outstrips any "law of exponents" that isn't even applicable to economic realities.

There is some wiggle room in defining the "optimal" savings rate. However, during the 2000s there were a few years were we had a negative savings rate which is clearly not optimal. Furthermore, there is no avoiding the deleveraging that must occur after the credit bubble that built up over the last 15 years.

Poor returns in bank CDs isn't exactly unique in American history. In fact, I question the intelligence of any saving money in a bank looking for a good return. Mutual and index funds are far more sensible and far exceed inflation on average.

That's a personal asset management decision. The point is that we presently have negative real interest rates because of the actions of the Federal reserve. You should not be forced to invest in risky assets to earn the rate of inflation on your money. There's a reason they call it financial repression.
 

Abwx

Lifer
Apr 2, 2011
10,970
3,514
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It's also important to understand that all of the money in the world was created by governments' borrowing. Govt debt & private money exist in equilibrium, mirror images of each other. The fact that govts borrow to create new money is a holdover from the gold standard, and interest paid amounts to compensation to wealth holders for dilution of the value of their money. Govt spending of borrowed money puts it back into the economy at times when it would otherwise simply be hoarded. And for the holders of such money, the more they hoard the more valuable it becomes, simply because nobody else has any.

That's the simplified version.

Oversimplifed to the point that it doesnt catch the underlying scam
of the financial crooks.

Governments borrow in fact their own state s money through a really
diabolic fabrication that consist to deprive the governments
from creating money , abandoning ths right to private bankers.

Through the fractionnal reserve mechansm , private banks
are granted the right to lend the future world productions,
that is , printing money whose counterpart is future productions.

It would be no different if the state was the only one to create
money , with the big difference that he wouldnt have to pay
interests for money created out of thin air...
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
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No, you are the one who is incorrect. Expected inflation has no effect on future debts because it is priced in to interest rates. Only unexpected inflation decreases the real value of debts.

Investors try to price it that way, but the effect on borrowers, long term, is quite beneficial. If you bought a house 20 years ago on a 30 year note, the payment today is very likely a much, much smaller % of income than it was back then... and you'd also have a store of value in equity. That's true if you didn't pay too much at the time, even if income lags inflation, because housing was easily the biggest single expense at the time of purchase. If housing was 30% of income at the time, it's less today under that scenario if other factors remain equal.

That's not true in a zero inflation scenario, and exactly the opposite holds in a deflationary scenario, where the more you pay the more you owe in terms of value.

Taking that from Macro to Micro economics explains why the housing bubble has been so destructive of middle class fortunes, and will continue to be so for a long time to come. It also explains why that bubble was so dangerous, and why the extraordinary actions of the FRB & Treasury prevented the whole economy from following housing right down the rathole of a deflationary spiral.
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
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This is a minor nitpick. But no, it also reduces future debts if inflation is constantly increasing 2%/yr. Existing debt too, of course, but 2% is compounded annually so it has a snowballing effect of reducing future debt burdens.

Yes it does but from what I understand, in normal economic times, the bond guys are the smartest guys in the investment room. I imagine that they price expected inflation into what the interest rate that they are willing to loan at, right? If we were currently in a normal economic time and inflation was 10% (just using round numbers) do you think someone would loan me $250K at 5%?

Nope, they do indeed gain purchasing power if they were to, for example, get a 4% pay raise when inflation is 2%. Not a particularly unlikely scenario on average.


I understand that but if they only get a 2% raise they have not gained a thing. With 0% inflation any raise they get increases their purchasing power. I will get to the rest on this subject below.

I'm not saying, anywhere, that we have oversaved as a nation. I'm saying saving past a certain point, as a general rule, makes no sense. For example, the multitude of books and radio shows out there emphasizing being debt free, as in $0 in debt, hurts people's ability to actually use their money. Those that can responsibly use it, that is. Spending is vital to any economy, this is a universal law that outstrips any "law of exponents" that isn't even applicable to economic realities.

You are correct but we aren't saving at all. I would imagine that most middle class Americans have a negative or close to negative savings rate. Even if you exclude home and car loans I bet that a very large portion owes more on revolving debt than they have saved. That is not a good financial situation.
Poor returns in bank CDs isn't exactly unique in American history. In fact, I question the intelligence of any saving money in a bank looking for a good return. Mutual and index funds are far more sensible and far exceed inflation on average.

but right now you actually have negative returns on most ultra safe investments when you factor in inflation. This forces people to basically take all of the money they would prefer to have safe and put it in riskier interments which imo isn't a good thing either.

2% is a stable price. 0% makes no sense, it becomes much harder to justify higher prices in an economy with no inflation. Just as it becomes much harder to justify pay increases. This is yet another universally well known economic reality of the psychology of people (well, at least Americans).

This is the part I don't understand. First of all, if we are getting more efficient (assuming everything else is the same) why wouldn't the price come down? And if the price of raw goods goes up then so does the price. Why do things have to cost more? As far as pay raises, my view has always been that an individual gets a pay raise for being more productive. We as a society have become more productive over the years and therefore we make more money. Regardless of inflation you must be worth what your employer is paying you in order for the employer to make money. If you make your employer $50K he usually can't afford to pay you $100K to do that job.

Are you trying to imply that it is inflation, and not increased productivity, that gets people higher pay? If that is so then eventually a wall is hit where the employer is paying you more than you produce for the employer and that simply isn't sustainable.

I'll try to find some links for you when I get a sec. Prolly next week, I'll have to look over some old textbooks as a google search doesn't list the texts online for reference.

Thank you kindly, I am really interested in reading it. It goes against what seems like common sense in my head but unlike some others around here I do try to learn and if I am wrong I have no problem admitting it.

Sorry I'm not sure what kind of point you're trying to make here?

Just that it seems that productivity increase and not inflation seems to me to be the reason for the increased wages.

Fair enough, though my personal rule of thumb is to take a long term view, as I rarely take <10 year trends too seriously.

Of course, I do too but right now its hard to deny that our monetary policy is hurting the poor and middle class.

Oh, and I disagree completely about the "outstrips the law of exponents". Its a law for a reason and math never ever lies. Hell, math is the "universal language" it is "true".
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
I understand that but if they only get a 2% raise they have not gained a thing. With 0% inflation any raise they get increases their purchasing power. I will get to the rest on this subject below.

They gain against a fixed mortgage payment. Housing is the biggest single expense for the vast majority of Americans.

You are correct but we aren't saving at all. I would imagine that most middle class Americans have a negative or close to negative savings rate. Even if you exclude home and car loans I bet that a very large portion owes more on revolving debt than they have saved. That is not a good financial situation.

The savings rate is up, with predictable consequences-

http://ftalphaville.ft.com/blog/2010/08/17/318101/take-that-niall-krugman-was-right-all-along/

http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/02/06/zero-bounds-and-butter-mountains-wonkish/


but right now you actually have negative returns on most ultra safe investments when you factor in inflation. This forces people to basically take all of the money they would prefer to have safe and put it in riskier interments which imo isn't a good thing either.

Supply & demand- the market demand for money is low, supply high, so therefore low returns. It's the result of a flight to liquidity & liquidity preference. Competition for "safe" investment is fierce.

Of course, I do too but right now its hard to deny that our monetary policy is hurting the poor and middle class.

You contradict yourself. First you offer that most are net debtors, then argue for hard money & high rates, which harm debtors.