Korbel wants Comcast to ID anonymous critics

[Joemonkey]

http://www.pressdemocrat.com/a...o-ID-anonymous-critics

Korbel Champagne Cellars will ask a Sonoma County judge next week to make Comcast Corp. identify Internet customers who criticized the wine company in a Web forum.

Korbel Burt is the most popular sparkling wine made by the Guerneville-based wine company. It?s the latest twist in a case that could test the limits of free speech on the Internet.

Korbel sued the anonymous critics last year for defamation, saying their comments damaged the century-old business.

The postings in a Craigslist forum last year accused Korbel of punishing employees who reported sexual harassment. They also contended the winery was plotting to cut down redwood forests on its Guerneville property. Other posts alleged Korbel bribed law enforcement and court authorities to keep the company out of trouble.

The charges are false, said Korbel spokesman Terry Fahn. They?ve damaged Korbel?s reputation, according to its lawsuit filed in Sonoma County Superior Court.

The suit seeks an injunction and unspecified damages.

Defamation suits based on anonymous Web comments are becoming more common with the explosion of Internet traffic.

Lawsuits threaten to chill anonymous speech online, said Ann Brick, an attorney for the American Civil Liberties Union of Northern California.

?If people have to worry about having their identities revealed, they are going to be reluctant to join the discussion,? she said. ?There is a real potential to stifle free speech on the Internet.?

Korbel worked with Craigslist to remove the comments, but wouldn?t say whether the popular online bulletin board revealed the Internet addresses of the posters.

While Craigslist won?t comment on the case, its Web site says it may disclose its users? Internet addresses in court cases.

Korbel has determined the unnamed posters are customers of Comcast?s Internet service, according to court papers. On March 4, Korbel will ask Superior Court Judge Gary Nadler to order Comcast to turn over their names.

Comcast would comply with such a court order, but only after notifying its customers that their identities are being sought, said Comcast spokesman Andrew Johnson. Customers can then go to court to fight the release of their names.

?Our policy is to give our customer notice and sufficient time to decide whether to contest the disclosure,? Johnson said.

If the customer decides to fight the proposed court order, Comcast withholds identifying information until the matter is resolved. If the customer doesn?t choose to fight, then Comcast will reveal their identity, he said.

?We will disclose whatever we have that is responsive,? Johnson said.

Korbel?s attorney, Robert O?Brien, couldn?t be reached for comment. Korbel?s lawsuit said the postings are part of a conspiracy to defame the winemaker.

The case shows that Internet users should be careful what they say in anonymous Web forums, said Matt Zimmerman, an attorney for the Electronic Frontier Foundation, a San Francisco nonprofit that defends free speech online.

?Even if you think you are speaking anonymously, you are leaving digital footprints that could ?out? you,? he said. ?You could still be held liable.?

Judges should be cautious about ordering identities revealed in such defamation cases, Brick said. Korbel should be required to show the comments were truly defamatory and that the business was actually damaged, she said.

?There?s a real potential for abuse,? she said. ?It?s important for courts to act carefully before stripping away that protective anonymity.?

what do you guys think? careful what you say!

 

[ElFenix]

?If people have to worry about having their identities revealed, they are going to be reluctant to join the discussion,? she said. ?There is a real potential to stifle free speech on the Internet.?

http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/03/19/

 

[vi edit]

I usually can't stand hypothetical slippery slope arguments...but this is one that it's justified.

How far down that rabbit hole are we willing to go? If we want that kind of transparency, then I say turnabout is fair play and korbel needs to start making all of their internal marketing plans public so we can see how they are trying to target buyers.

Oh but we can't have that. It's private information.

 

[OutHouse]

The postings in a Craigslist forum last year accused Korbel of punishing employees who reported sexual harassment. They also contended the winery was plotting to cut down redwood forests on its Guerneville property. Other posts alleged Korbel bribed law enforcement and court authorities to keep the company out of trouble.

well if they can prove damages from people saying those things then Korbel does have a lawsuit and comcast should cough up the names.

?If people have to worry about having their identities revealed, they are going to be reluctant to join the discussion,? she said. ?There is a real potential to stifle free speech on the Internet.?

spewing out lies, false accusations and hurting a business or person is NOT free speech. If the only thing a person can contribute to a conversation are lies and false accusations then they need to keep their mouth shut. Free speech is protection from speaking out against the government and not get imprisoned or shot. Not protection against defamation, posting crap like that on the internet should not be protected just as it isn't in printed paper or shouted from a soapbox or spread in the rumor mill.

 

[SagaLore]

Originally posted by: Joemonkey
what do you guys think? careful what you say!

I'm for it. Free speech != anonymity. You can be allowed to say what you want, but it can't violate law, such as defamation.

Also, Internet != anonymity. The Internet is wide open, and always has been since its inception.

 

[spidey07]

There is no expectation of privacy or anonymity on the internet.

Korbel has a legitimate complaint.

 

[shocksyde]

Before reading the article I thought it was gonna be stupid shit like "Korbel tastes bad!", but it looks like someone is truly trying to damage their business.

 

[ViRGE]

If it's true: Korbel is abusing the system and should be beat down, hard. Then beat down again for what they did in the first place.

If it's false: Korbel has every right to discover who it is and go after them. We have laws against libel on the books for good reason.

 

[alkemyst]

Originally posted by: spidey07
There is no expectation of privacy or anonymity on the internet.

Korbel has a legitimate complaint.

QFT...I believe everyone should be identifiable. It'd cut down on a the wannabe gangsta's and people doing stupid things out there to others.

 

[Phoenix86]

Originally posted by: spidey07
There is no expectation of privacy or anonymity on the internet.

Korbel has a legitimate complaint.

If I run a web site and I allow anonymous posts, why doesn't that provide an expectation of anonymity?

There's a different between expecting total anonymity everywhere and having some level of it in certain places.

 

[ultimatebob]

Meh... Korbel's champagne sucks anyway. Moet Chandon is where it's at, man.

 

[daniel1113]

Originally posted by: Citrix

The postings in a Craigslist forum last year accused Korbel of punishing employees who reported sexual harassment. They also contended the winery was plotting to cut down redwood forests on its Guerneville property. Other posts alleged Korbel bribed law enforcement and court authorities to keep the company out of trouble.

well if they can prove damages from people saying those things then Korbel does have a lawsuit and comcast should cough up the names.

?If people have to worry about having their identities revealed, they are going to be reluctant to join the discussion,? she said. ?There is a real potential to stifle free speech on the Internet.?

spewing out lies, false accusations and hurting a business or person is NOT free speech. If the only thing a person can contribute to a conversation are lies and false accusations then they need to keep their mouth shut. Free speech is protection from speaking out against the government and not get imprisoned or shot. Not protection against defamation, posting crap like that on the internet should not be protected just as it isn't in printed paper or shouted from a soapbox or spread in the rumor mill.

If the damages are that bad, then Korbel should have no problem obtaining a court order for the information. Without a court order, Comcast should tell them to fuck off.

 

[Joemonkey]

Originally posted by: ultimatebob
Meh... Korbel's champagne sucks anyway. Moet Chandon is where it's at, man.

compare $10 stuff to $35 stuff and you're likely to find a difference...

 

[SagaLore]

Originally posted by: Phoenix86
If I run a web site and I allow anonymous posts, why doesn't that provide an expectation of anonymity?

1. The Internet is public domain. 2. Your site's TOS does not supersede government law.

 

[PingSpike]

Can comcast send them a bill for services rendered in identifying the individual?

 

[Phoenix86]

Originally posted by: SagaLore

Originally posted by: Phoenix86
If I run a web site and I allow anonymous posts, why doesn't that provide an expectation of anonymity?

1. The Internet is public domain. 2. Your site's TOS does not supersede government law.

Everything posted on the internet is public domain...?

Think about that for a minute. Do you realize how much private/confidential data is on the internet behind secure server?

 

[Lithium381]

Originally posted by: SagaLore

Originally posted by: Phoenix86
If I run a web site and I allow anonymous posts, why doesn't that provide an expectation of anonymity?

1. The Internet is public domain. 2. Your site's TOS does not supersede government law.

this.

 

[Pheran]

Originally posted by: ultimatebob
Meh... Korbel's champagne sucks anyway. Moet Chandon is where it's at, man.

You will be hearing from our lawyers shortly. Bend over.

 

[kranky]

I don't think people should expect to post outright lies without having to be accountable.

Just read an article last month about some students at Yale Law School who were defamed over and over again on a discussion board - to the point where these posts were the first Google results when you searched the students' names. It was keeping them from getting jobs because prospective employers were Googling the students and saw the posts. Turned out it was all made up by different people, many of who didn't even know the students, but were just jumping on the bandwagon when they saw posts by other people about the students.

If the Korbel posts are lies, then the posters should be accountable for what they said.

On a side note, how could these people can fight the release of their information in court without their identities becoming known? Can you file a court case anonymously?

 

[joesmoke]

Korbel Corp. killed my dog!

Korbel Corp. gang-raped my grandmama's face!

Korbel Corp. paid the terrorists champagne and herion to commit 9/11!

Korbel Corp. hates gays and jews and isn't sorry about it!

 

[Joemonkey]

Originally posted by: joesmoke
Korbel Corp. killed my dog!

Korbel Corp. gang-raped my grandmama's face!

Korbel Corp. paid the terrorists champagne and herion to commit 9/11!

Korbel Corp. hates gays and jews and isn't sorry about it!

quoted! I'm calling the police!

 

[frostedflakes]

Originally posted by: shocksyde
Before reading the article I thought it was gonna be stupid shit like "Korbel tastes bad!", but it looks like someone is truly trying to damage their business.

Yeah it sounds like they might have a legitimate case for defamation. For all we know, these people could be employees of a competing wine business actually trying to slander this company.

 

[actuarial]

Originally posted by: Phoenix86

Originally posted by: SagaLore

Originally posted by: Phoenix86
If I run a web site and I allow anonymous posts, why doesn't that provide an expectation of anonymity?

1. The Internet is public domain. 2. Your site's TOS does not supersede government law.

Everything posted on the internet is public domain...?

Think about that for a minute. Do you realize how much private/confidential data is on the internet behind secure server?

That's a very interesting point. I've never really thought of it that way.

 

[BoomerD]

Originally posted by: Joemonkey

what do you guys think? careful what you say!

First, based only on the article you linked, Korbel has a pretty good chance of getting the information they seek. Defamation is not protected speech.

Next, based on this:

Korbel Burt is the most popular sparkling wine made by the Guerneville-based wine company.

The Press-Democrat needs to hire a better proof reader. The accompanying picture even shows "BRUT" spelled correctly.

 

[Joemonkey]

Originally posted by: BoomerD

Originally posted by: Joemonkey

what do you guys think? careful what you say!

First, based only on the article you linked, Korbel has a pretty good chance of getting the information they seek. Defamation is not protected speech.

Next, based on this:

Korbel Burt is the most popular sparkling wine made by the Guerneville-based wine company.

The Press-Democrat needs to hire a better proof reader. The accompanying picture even shows "BRUT" spelled correctly.

maybe it's a new sesame street based flavor? I hear Korbel Ernie will be damn good stuff