Kobe Bryant killed in helicopter crash

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Nov 8, 2012
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That kind of wording is always there in a settlement. It's part of the deal because the accuser wants that wording to absolve them of any future accusations that they fabricated it (even in cases that may have been fabricated). Same as when a class action lawsuit ends with a settlement agreement where the defendant admits no fault or wrong doing.
Wut? Why would someone admit that the other didn't give consent as a standard protocol? That doesn't sound right to me.....

Either way, personally, I was just kind of playing devil's advocate of sorts. I haven't even mentioned which side I'm on here - the only thing I've done is brought up the topic because I don't see the point of having this thread in P&N without some sort of debatable topic... Otherwise, why make one here vs the one in OT?


Personally I find with the whole "MeToo (tm)" movement and everything I'm much more probable to believe Kobe than a random person that is clearly more interested in money.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
107,941
24,203
146
Personally I find with the whole "MeToo (tm)" movement and everything I'm much more probable to believe Kobe than a random person that is clearly more interested in money.
Of course you are, because this is a logical statement that certainly makes an argument.


(actually, you didn't make an argument. you drew a counter, then failed to provide rationale....and there is literally no reason for any of it. You are posting simply because you are an ass. that is it)
 

Ichinisan

Lifer
Oct 9, 2002
28,298
1,232
136
Wut? Why would someone admit that the other didn't give consent as a standard protocol? That doesn't sound right to me.....

...
Well, because he might feel that a trial would be more trouble than it was worth. Really the only reason anyone ever settles.
 
Nov 8, 2012
20,828
4,773
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Well, because he might feel that a trial would be more trouble than it was worth. Really the only reason anyone ever settles.
Precisely.

Of course you are, because this is a logical statement that certainly makes an argument.


(actually, you didn't make an argument. you drew a counter, then failed to provide rationale....and there is literally no reason for any of it. You are posting simply because you are an ass. that is it)
I keep wondering if you're secretly in love with me or something. I told you I will still meet and buy you a beer bby ;)

No but seriously, how do you guys flop so quickly as to act as if I wanted to shit on Kobe - and then when I actually give my probable opinion you flop back with me? It's like you want to flirt with me?
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
33,924
3,274
126
So since this is P&N....

What are people's thoughts on saying "good riddance" essentially saying he was a rapist?


I would say what a mod said in the OT forums probably also applies here -- Folks, we realize OT is legendary for irreverence. However, in "condolence" threads such as this, we must insist that posters confine themselves to positive remembrances and respectful comments. Posters who cannot or will not hew to this directive will be infracted.

As was suggested start another thrread to discuss the acusations against Kobe......I believe this thread was started as a condolence thread....
 

dawp

Lifer
Jul 2, 2005
11,070
2,323
136
this is looking more and more like controlled flight into terrain with the fog and a request to gain altitude to get above it just prior to the crash.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
107,941
24,203
146
No but seriously, how do you guys flop so quickly as to act as if I wanted to shit on Kobe - and then when I actually give my probable opinion you flop back with me? It's like you want to flirt with me?
lolwut? Is it a reading comprehension thing? ....
 

purbeast0

No Lifer
Sep 13, 2001
51,861
4,384
126
this is looking more and more like controlled flight into terrain with the fog and a request to gain altitude to get above it just prior to the crash.
This is a pretty good watch from a knowledable witness.

 
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sactoking

Diamond Member
Sep 24, 2007
7,235
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Kind of an interesting angle on why he was using helicopters in the first place. Hard not to partially blame the failure of the US to properly plan transportation.

Funnily enough I was just thinking that it's California's fault; if their income tax were higher then he wouldn't have been able to afford a Sikorsky and they all might still be alive today.
 

herm0016

Diamond Member
Feb 26, 2005
8,167
843
126
choppers are dangerous. RIP Kobe.


i have been in them a somewhat significant number of hours. all the offshore personnel go through ditch training. we get strapped into a helicopter body hung over a pool, drop it as fast as possible on a cable into the pool while flipping it upside down,. before hand, they say, here is how the seat-belt and windows work, wait till you are fully underwater and get out. there are divers in case anyone has a problem. you do this about 6 times at different angles and speeds. sometimes you all have to go out one side or the other. all while fully clothed with PFDs, and even with a dry suit, which is much harder due to buoyancy. and then you get to do it every year to keep your certification.

we flew on AS332 Super Pumas max of 24 people, but ours were 10-15 seats and cargo. when you sit in there, the seats are offset a bit, so your knees are in between the legs of the dude facing you.


once we were on a platform with no accommodation, so we had to fly a couple miles to another platform every shift. a panel had come loose on the engine cowling and the pilot asked for some zip ties as the chopper would not let him start the engine without it closed. never asked if he used them on the switch for that panel.
 

VRAMdemon

Diamond Member
Aug 16, 2012
5,750
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That was way out of line, just like saying rape deserves a death sentence.
It's amazing that probably same people who go on Twitter bitching and moaning about virtue signaling, are on Twitter now virtue signaling.

This one incident does NOT define him...
 

VRAMdemon

Diamond Member
Aug 16, 2012
5,750
6,143
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Kind of an interesting angle on why he was using helicopters in the first place. Hard not to partially blame the failure of the US to properly plan transportation.

Interesting...

I’m reading that this was Kobe’s exclusive pilot. Although apparently well trained, I’m guessing that he was not in the business of telling his client “no” when they were planning a trip.

NW flight in Detroit 1987 or the AA flight in Arkansas in 1999. Crews trying to be on time, rushing the process.
 

skyking

Lifer
Nov 21, 2001
20,312
2,016
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To be honest, well-maintained helicopters are not inherently dangerous it's what people tend to do with them. I was a part of the aviation community for a few decades up here in the Puget Sound area, and I had those Insider stories of how they would fly right at treetop level at about 5 miles an hour trying to figure out their way through the soup that develops up here regularly.
It wasn't an everyday occurrence but if you heard one of those stories you got the idea that there was a certain invincibility mindset. The most seasoned pilots would never fly IFR if they could scud run.
Flying on instruments in a helicopter is also completely different than fixed-wing. Helicopters are inherently unstable. Think about balancing on a basketball in a swimming pool if you quit waving your arms you're going to tip over.
A fully functional autopilot is an absolute requirement for IFR in helicopters. You can't let go of the cyclic control without one. On the flip side, I could let go of the yoke of my plane for 15 20 seconds, no autopilot.
If you did decide to file and fly IFR you're going to at least double the flight time in those short commute areas like in the LA basin. Now you're climbing to three or four thousand feet minimum probably more like 5.
They've got these upside down wedding cakes of Class B airspace over top of all of the big Jet Airports, and you're going to be tucked in somewhere underneath them with a whole bunch of other general aviation aircraft flying IFR. It's a (safe) pain in the ass
 

Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
14,693
1,904
126
I would say what a mod said in the OT forums probably also applies here -- Folks, we realize OT is legendary for irreverence. However, in "condolence" threads such as this, we must insist that posters confine themselves to positive remembrances and respectful comments. Posters who cannot or will not hew to this directive will be infracted.

As was suggested start another thrread to discuss the acusations against Kobe......I believe this thread was started as a condolence thread....
Kobe’s legacy is complex because of the rape allegations and his admission to a non consensual encounter as part of the civil settlement. I was living in Los Angeles when the civil case started, and the shaming from Lakers fans was cult of personality rabid after “someone” leaked personal information about the victim.

The metoo and times up movements both questioned the message being sent by Hollywood when they awarded Kobe an Oscar.

WAPO is now facing heat for reprimanding a female reporter who tweeted out an older article about the investigation. She is now receiving hate mail and death threats. Most news agencies are now wrestling with balancing this narrative. I could see how some would reject canonizing him.

What makes this story more tragic and complicated is that his daughter died with him.
 
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VRAMdemon

Diamond Member
Aug 16, 2012
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Kobe’s legacy is complex because of the rape allegations and his admission to a non consensual encounter as part of the civil settlement. I was living in Los Angeles when the civil case started, and the shaming from Lakers fans was cult of personality rabid after “someone” leaked personal information about the victim.

The metoo and times up movements both questioned the message being sent by Hollywood when they awarded Kobe an Oscar.

WAPO is now facing heat for reprimanding a female reporter who tweeted out an older article about the investigation. She is now receiving hate mail and death threats. Most news agencies are now wrestling with balancing this narrative. I could see how some would reject canonizing him.

What makes this story more tragic and complicated is that his daughter died with him.
While I don't think the WAPO should have suspended the her - she should have realized the timing wasn't the best career move. Hell...They haven't even finished collecting the charred remains of these families yet and this is what this reporter wants people to focus on. She should have known there would be negative reactions including the worst of our society phoning in death threats and such.

Look..If people want to think Kobe Bryant was a scumbag rapist and that incident should define him and want to bring this narrative as the main focus on his legacy - fine, have at it. But, most people will tune this out, and focus on the overwhelmingly good he has produced. They will respond with a "really... this is what this reporter wants us to focus on" especially at this time. This incident isn't just a "canonizing" of Kobe Bryant. What many are reflecting is how families can be devastatingly torn apart in the blink of an eye. Here today gone tomorrow. It's shocking to many. Sympathy for these families is overwhelming and will be the main focus.

I got to see first hand how Kobe Bryant affected the children of the Upper and Lower Merion school districts (My kids went to Upper Merion) and the schools in surrounding districts with his relentless work ethic, his message of positive thinking and hard work definitely pays off. When Kobe was in town and going to visit the school it was a big deal. So I will admit bias, and continue to focus on the good and lessons learned.
 

VRAMdemon

Diamond Member
Aug 16, 2012
5,750
6,143
136
To be honest, well-maintained helicopters are not inherently dangerous it's what people tend to do with them. I was a part of the aviation community for a few decades up here in the Puget Sound area, and I had those Insider stories of how they would fly right at treetop level at about 5 miles an hour trying to figure out their way through the soup that develops up here regularly.
It wasn't an everyday occurrence but if you heard one of those stories you got the idea that there was a certain invincibility mindset. The most seasoned pilots would never fly IFR if they could scud run.
Flying on instruments in a helicopter is also completely different than fixed-wing. Helicopters are inherently unstable. Think about balancing on a basketball in a swimming pool if you quit waving your arms you're going to tip over.
A fully functional autopilot is an absolute requirement for IFR in helicopters. You can't let go of the cyclic control without one. On the flip side, I could let go of the yoke of my plane for 15 20 seconds, no autopilot.
If you did decide to file and fly IFR you're going to at least double the flight time in those short commute areas like in the LA basin. Now you're climbing to three or four thousand feet minimum probably more like 5.
They've got these upside down wedding cakes of Class B airspace over top of all of the big Jet Airports, and you're going to be tucked in somewhere underneath them with a whole bunch of other general aviation aircraft flying IFR. It's a (safe) pain in the ass
I came across an interesting conversation about “normalization of deviance” in the middle of a Reddit thread. This local to the SFV pilot said something to the effect...

There's IMC and there's "San Fernando Valley IMC" which basically every helicopter that lives at Van Nuys, Whiteman, and Burbank knows they can fudge it and fly anyway, so long as they can "stay in VFR conditions" which they kinda know is a lie, but waiting for SVFR clearance out usually means you're not getting out/through, hence the rule bending.

Everything I've read indicates this crash may have been caused by "normalization of deviance", also known as "slowly boiling the frog". The client and the pilot slowly increase their tolerance of risk and never notice they have, until the one unlucky time they pay the ultimate price.

Many might think - "I'm not some superstar who's become used to pushing their luck because they've led a charmed life", but nearly every person does this, alot. Whether it's driving 90 mph because your late to a business meeting. Or, driving home drunk from the local bar - "i do this all the time" type stuff. You better hope that where and when you're doing it - the worst consequence isn't lethal. Most humans need immediate feedback in order to change their behavior and the way they comprehend risk.
 

Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
14,693
1,904
126
While I don't think the WAPO should have suspended the her - she should have realized the timing wasn't the best career move. Hell...They haven't even finished collecting the charred remains of these families yet and this is what this reporter wants people to focus on. She should have known there would be negative reactions including the worst of our society phoning in death threats and such.
When someone famous dies and there are polarizing aspects to their legacy, is there ever a good time?

Look..If people want to think Kobe Bryant was a scumbag rapist and that incident should define him and want to bring this narrative as the main focus on his legacy - fine, have at it. But, most people will tune this out, and focus on the overwhelmingly good he has produced. They will respond with a "really... this is what this reporter wants us to focus on" especially at this time. This incident isn't just a "canonizing" of Kobe Bryant. What many are reflecting is how families can be devastatingly torn apart in the blink of an eye. Here today gone tomorrow. It's shocking to many. Sympathy for these families is overwhelming and will be the main focus.
There was a good article the other day that explained why sports celebrities often get a pass for when they misbehave.

I got to see first hand how Kobe Bryant affected the children of the Upper and Lower Merion school districts (My kids went to Upper Merion) and the schools in surrounding districts with his relentless work ethic, his message of positive thinking and hard work definitely pays off. When Kobe was in town and going to visit the school it was a big deal. So I will admit bias, and continue to focus on the good and lessons learned.
Yet given his complex legacy, I could see why some would challenge his standing as a role model while others would point to his role in promoting women’s sports as redeeming.
 

skyking

Lifer
Nov 21, 2001
20,312
2,016
136
I kind of can follow this.

if there's anything that you'd like me to clear up I'd be happy to.
His flight up the highway was going to take him through a couple of different class C airspace, both of which were below VFR minimums. When you look at his radar plot with all the circles on it, that's where he was holding at this first airport, the communications pick up right towards the end of his hold there.
The tower controllers can't have multiple aircraft operating when the air space is below VFR, and there at the end the tower controller had a plane on the ground wait while the helicopter transitioned through. That was the "15 minutes" part.
In that area, the controllers at the airport own the airspace up to 2500 ft. Above that belongs to SoCal, the approach controllers for that entire area.
Later when he tried to pick up flight following from SoCal, he was below their minimum vectoring altitude.
EDIT: I took a few minutes at https://skyvector.com/ and at https://www.airnav.com/airport/KOXR

to see what the environment looked like. My personal flying preference was to stay the hell away from places like LA.
In my second link I show Oxnard Airport which is just a few miles west of their destination. Even closer is Camarillo which has a GPS approach down to 800 and 2 1/2 miles visibility.
Oxnard's ILS is good for 600 and a mile. Woulda Coulda Shoulda :(
 
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VRAMdemon

Diamond Member
Aug 16, 2012
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When someone famous dies and there are polarizing aspects to their legacy, is there ever a good time?
Yes..This reporter posted it an hour or so after the crash. The bodies were still smoldering. What was the purpose of her tweeting so soon but to be hurtful and to start this kind of negative bullshit. It disrespects everyone killed on that flight and the families still living. She knew what she was doing and was smart enough to know the consequences. Just more behavior of "journalists" on Twitter. I'm sure she tweeted this thinking it was a strategic move that would propel her career. Her purpose was to win Twitter "likes" by virtue signaling to some rabid potential or current "fanbase" that any man/women accused of any misconduct ever, should be vilified and offered no respite from torment, even hours after his/her death. If you're going to dredge up 17 year old settled case with apologies to smear somebody who has just died in a fiery crash, at least have the decency to wait until the corpse cools off. The reporter knew exactly what response she would get. and then goes and tries to lecture us as a society, and play the victim after she instigated the whole thing for publicity and clicks. This "reporter" didn't write about this story when it happened, she just tweeted it out now. It isn't "journalism" to tweet. Twitter is not a journalistic platform.. it was an attempt to accelerate her own career on some kind of metoo bandwagon. All the time that Bryant was ALIVE she never posted this story or wrote an article about it. She did nothing honorable.

There was a good article the other day that explained why sports celebrities often get a pass for when they misbehave.
Meh..People of power, not just athletes get a pass, your "article" is nothing educational or worth noting. 8 other people died in this incident. These people were "powerful celebrities" to all the family members who knew them. I guess some reporters should Tweet out some past transgressions from these people hours after death. Imagine tragically passing away with your child, and someone is immediately moved to bring up the worst thing you ever did, were involved in, or said, before family notifications of death had even went out. Everyone is flawed or has had flawed moments in life. Announcing these moments in the media moments after death is distasteful.

Yet given his complex legacy, I could see why some would challenge his standing as a role model while others would point to his role in promoting women’s sports as redeeming.
Another. meh. His legacy is not that "complicated". And part of the reason he was promoting women's sports is because he had 4 daughters and one directly involved in his own career path. Again, 8 other people died in this accident, possibly with "complex" legacy's. Kobe will be remembered for the good and the bad. The fact that she is getting death threats is ridiculous. No one is attempting to whitewash history because he's deceased. If she wanted to call him out she should have done it when he was alive. Some people will do anything to get attention even negative attention. You may not believe this, but There IS a time and place for everything. She did it for shock value and is "surprised " by the reaction, then plays the victim. No sympathy found.
 

VRAMdemon

Diamond Member
Aug 16, 2012
5,750
6,143
136
if there's anything that you'd like me to clear up I'd be happy to.
His flight up the highway was going to take him through a couple of different class C airspace, both of which were below VFR minimums. When you look at his radar plot with all the circles on it, that's where he was holding at this first airport, the communications pick up right towards the end of his hold there.
The tower controllers can't have multiple aircraft operating when the air space is below VFR, and there at the end the tower controller had a plane on the ground wait while the helicopter transitioned through. That was the "15 minutes" part.
In that area, the controllers at the airport own the airspace up to 2500 ft. Above that belongs to SoCal, the approach controllers for that entire area.
Later when he tried to pick up flight following from SoCal, he was below their minimum vectoring altitude.
EDIT: I took a few minutes at https://skyvector.com/ and at https://www.airnav.com/airport/KOXR

to see what the environment looked like. My personal flying preference was to stay the hell away from places like LA.
In my second link I show Oxnard Airport which is just a few miles west of their destination. Even closer is Camarillo which has a GPS approach down to 800 and 2 1/2 miles visibility.
Oxnard's ILS is good for 600 and a mile. Woulda Coulda Shoulda :(
I have a question...According to information from the NTSB, the helicopter's radar returns indicated that just before impact, it was in a "descending left bank".

If you're wrapped up in cloud and have no idea where the ground is (and know you will have no warning if you get too low to terrain), why would you be in a descending ANYTHING? Was the pilot stuck in a visual rule mindset and ignoring his instruments? Because I'm pretty sure the altimeter and rate-of-climb indicator would definitely have said "you're descending" if the pilot had looked at them.

Maybe the pilot thought he could get below the deck and reestablish his navigation? I understand the helicopter didn't have a terrain awareness system (TAWS).
 

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