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KMART firing 22,000 people, CEO gets 9.5 million severence package

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<<
I'm not defending a damn thing except the fact that the agreement of a specific severance package was legally binding, no matter what financial shape the company was in.

Do I think what they do is smart? No. Do I think it's "fair?" What is fair? It's irrelevent, that's what.

Besides that, who the f'ck are you to tell companies and their shareholders how they may, and may not compensate their management?

If I'm defending anything here, it's legel obligations... oh, and freedom for companies to do what they want without ninnies like you standing over them trying to micro manage their affairs according to your irrational idea that life is supposed to be "fair."
>>



Did I ever say legal obligations or contracts should not be upheld? So quit harping about an issue that misses the point entirely: justification of outrageous compensation levels without any accountability is grossly stupid, or unfair if that's what you want to call it. I certainly never used the term fair, or ranted that life should be fair.

Your defense of the situation is pretty ludicrous; by your accounts, if a company's board of directors makes poor decisions when choosing executives, then employees and shareholders should suffer quietly as a result. What if the severance package was $100 million and not $9.5 million? According to your none-of-my-business attitude, it's just as reasonable as 0 dollars. News alert to you: even in thriving capitalism, oversight and limited regulation are critical to maximize public benefit.



rahvin,

The problem with your argument is that you give excessive credit to the CEOs, and appear to ignore the many unsuccessful executives in the world. There's plenty of business evidence that the majority of these people aren't Supermen and women, so you neither need to worship them or defend compensation levels across the board as reasonable.

How many Jack Welsh, Bill Gates and Lou Gerstner's are there in the world? Very, very few, but guess what, as a group, execs reap excessive rewards. There are a lot more unsuccessful execs out there, and unlike regular employees, when they are canned (never officially "fired" of course), they walk away with absurd severance packages. I have no problem w/ the successful executives making a ton of money; the problem is how overpaid the average executive is, and how they aren't held accountable for failure. As long as U.S. corporations and their boards of directors approve contracts with absurd golden parachutes, and no responsibility for lack of success, employees and investors get shafted.

And guess what, as relentless as Gates' pursuit of software dominance was, even as CEO, he was but one cog in the company machine. How logical is it on the one hand to say CEOs are as responsible for corporate failure as the thousands of employees they manage, and on the other hand a CEO solely receives credit for successful operations? Obviously, the employees doing day-to-day work count either way you look at it.

As far as Chrystler execs jumping ship, that happens simply because the grass looked greener on the other side once Daimler reigned in compensation. Your argument is weak, since it represents one transparent example. Of course those execs will jump ship if they can continue to find a sweet compensation package elsewhere, and their new masters are not willing to throw money at them.

The national economy grew at ~ 4% annually throughout the 1990s, while executive compensation shot through the roof. There is really very little evidence that the compensation gains were in any way attributed to performance. Much of the profit gains were realized in "downsizing" employees and the resultant improved "productivity". It doesn't take a genius to reduce headcount. Now if you still want to worship execs are gods, then that's your right to do so.
 


<< The wealthy of the world create poverty, but they can't bear to look at it. >>

This is one of the more remarkably absurd and ignorant (if not envy-based) statement I've read in a while. The wealthy of the world create wealth, poverty exists as trees or rocks exist. Man was born into an extremely meager and "hand-to-mouth" existence (ever see any 'wealthy' tribal cultures?). The wealthy of the world 'create' industry which lifts people out of poverty who would otherwise be born and die poor, not to mention they pay about 75% of all the taxes in this country.
 


<<

<<
I'm not defending a damn thing except the fact that the agreement of a specific severance package was legally binding, no matter what financial shape the company was in.

Do I think what they do is smart? No. Do I think it's "fair?" What is fair? It's irrelevent, that's what.

Besides that, who the f'ck are you to tell companies and their shareholders how they may, and may not compensate their management?

If I'm defending anything here, it's legel obligations... oh, and freedom for companies to do what they want without ninnies like you standing over them trying to micro manage their affairs according to your irrational idea that life is supposed to be "fair."
>>



Did I ever say legal obligations or contracts should not be upheld? So quit harping about an issue that misses the point entirely: justification of outrageous compensation levels without any accountability is grossly stupid, or unfair if that's what you want to call it. I certainly never used the term fair, or ranted that life should be fair.

Your defense of the situation is pretty ludicrous; by your accounts, if a company's board of directors makes poor decisions when choosing executives, then employees and shareholders should suffer quietly as a result. What if the severance package was $100 million and not $9.5 million? According to your none-of-my-business attitude, it's just as reasonable as 0 dollars. News alert to you: even in thriving capitalism, oversight and limited regulation are critical to maximize public benefit.
>>



I defending nothing in the situation. I only defended THEIR freedom to be as stupid, or as smart as they want to be.

1. The employees can leave. The company owes them nothing beyond their last pay check, or any pre-employment agreement.

2. Shareholders elect their boards. They get what they ask for.

3. The problem is theirs, not yours. Stop acting as if it is, and you're the great social savior of the little guy.
 


<<

<< The wealthy of the world create poverty, but they can't bear to look at it. >>

This is one of the more remarkably absurd and ignorant (if not envy-based) statement I've read in a while. The wealthy of the world create wealth, poverty exists as trees or rocks exist. Man was born into an extremely meager and "hand-to-mouth" existence (ever see any 'wealthy' tribal cultures?). The wealthy of the world 'create' industry which lifts people out of poverty who would otherwise be born and die poor, not to mention they pay about 75% of all the taxes in this country.
>>



Yep. Forced income redistribution simply makes everyone equally poor.
 


<< Your defense of the situation is pretty ludicrous; by your accounts, if a company's board of directors makes poor decisions when choosing executives, then employees and shareholders should suffer quietly as a result. What if the severance package was $100 million and not $9.5 million? According to your none-of-my-business attitude, it's just as reasonable as 0 dollars. News alert to you: even in thriving capitalism, oversight and limited regulation are critical to maximize public benefit. >>



So who would you have decide how much they should get? I really can't believe you are suggesting that someone (I'm assuming the goverment) would get to decide how much someone can be paid.
 


<<
I defending nothing in the situation. I only defended THEIR freedom to be as stupid, or as smart as they want to be.

1. The employees can leave. The company owes them nothing beyond their last pay check, or any pre-employment agreement.

2. Shareholders elect their boards. They get what they ask for.

3. The problem is theirs, not yours. Stop acting as if it is, and you're the great social savior of the little guy.
>>



Okay, so it's all right for you to defend their freedom to be stupid.

But it's not okay for others to express how stupid the problem is. That makes a ton of sense. Ever hear of the 1st Amendment, per chance? Since when did I say KMart is my problem, anyway? I'm expressing my opinion about executive compensation. It's fine that you don't buy it, but who are you to moderate who gets to express an opinion?

Besides, how do you ever think any kind of business problem ever gets solved? Because mere mortals sit around on their asses and wait for a god, I mean CEO, to intervene?
 


<<

<<
I defending nothing in the situation. I only defended THEIR freedom to be as stupid, or as smart as they want to be.

1. The employees can leave. The company owes them nothing beyond their last pay check, or any pre-employment agreement.

2. Shareholders elect their boards. They get what they ask for.

3. The problem is theirs, not yours. Stop acting as if it is, and you're the great social savior of the little guy.
>>



Okay, so it's all right for you to defend their freedom to be stupid.

But it's not okay for others to express how stupid the problem is. That makes a ton of sense. Ever hear of the 1st Amendment, per chance? Since when did I say KMart is my problem, anyway? I'm expressing my opinion about executive compensation. It's fine that you don't buy it, but who are you to moderate who gets to express an opinion?

Besides, how do you ever think any kind of business problem ever gets solved? Because mere mortals sit around on their asses and wait for a god, I mean CEO, to intervene?
>>



When the f'ck did I say you couldn't express your opinion?
 
Capitalism is dramatic in success and failure. But I think a more salient point is KMart will NOT pay all of its creditors back. It will not reimburse communities that have invested in their well-being (tax breaks, munincipal projects) and most of its employees received nothing other than the opportunity to work a dead-end (for most) low-wage service job. But the CEO skips town with nice platinum parachute. Let's hear it for the value of an MBA.
 
Yep. Forced income redistribution simply makes everyone equally poor.

Gotta love ignorant generalizations such as the one above. Tell that to people enjoying the greatest quality of life living in social-democracies in Scandanavian countries... 😉

N
 


<< Yep. Forced income redistribution simply makes everyone equally poor.

Gotta love ignorant generalizations such as the one above. Tell that to people enjoying the greatest quality of life living in social-democracies in Scandanavian countries... 😉

N
>>



rolleye.gif


Try starting your own business there, and becoming a self made man.

"worker bee" doesn't count as a self made man, by the way.
 


<<
So who would you have decide how much they should get? I really can't believe you are suggesting that someone (I'm assuming the goverment) would get to decide how much someone can be paid.
>>



I never hinted in any way, shape or form, that government should dictate actual compensation. My mention of regulation was meant only to illustrate that capitalism does not mean no government regulation, or forms of non-government oversight. In another comment, I did state that I have no problem with successful executives pulling in their millions.

My point is simply that the way the typical contract is written is flawed, and that executive compensation increases in the past decade did not correlate with actual job performance. Basically, unless an executive outright breaks the law, they aren't accountable for lack of business success. It doesn't take a advanced degree to see that skyrocketing executive compensation doesn't make sense.

And even in the case of (alleged) illegal activities, many of us are aware of Enron former-CFO Andrew Fastow, who is currently building a multi-million dollar home that he is legally entitled to keep regardless of the outcome of any forthcoming litigation.

Logically, I'm not one to buy the "it's the system we have" argument as justification that the system isn't flawed.
 


<< The problem with your argument is that you give excessive credit to the CEOs, and appear to ignore the many unsuccessful executives in the world. There's plenty of business evidence that the majority of these people aren't Supermen and women, so you neither need to worship them or defend compensation levels across the board as reasonable. >>



I don't worship them nor am I defending them across the board. What I'm saying is you are neglecting market forces. You MUST pay those salaries and provide those golden parachutes to get good executives. Period.



<< How many Jack Welsh, Bill Gates and Lou Gerstner's are there in the world? Very, very few, but guess what, as a group, execs reap excessive rewards. There are a lot more unsuccessful execs out there, and unlike regular employees, when they are canned (never officially "fired" of course), they walk away with absurd severance packages. I have no problem w/ the successful executives making a ton of money; the problem is how overpaid the average executive is, and how they aren't held accountable for failure. As long as U.S. corporations and their boards of directors approve contracts with absurd golden parachutes, and no responsibility for lack of success, employees and investors get shafted. >>



Nearly every company on the S&P500 has an executive that is making money and creating jobs. (I say nearly because those that aren't will soon be replaced by those that are). Again, if you don't pay the going rate for good CEO's you have less of a chance of getting a good one than you do if you do pay the salaries. My question to you is how do you hold an executive accountable for their failure? Throw them in prison? Make them give back all their salary? How do you get them to agree to conditions like that and get them to actually be your CEO?



<< And guess what, as relentless as Gates' pursuit of software dominance was, even as CEO, he was but one cog in the company machine. How logical is it on the one hand to say CEOs are as responsible for corporate failure as the thousands of employees they manage, and on the other hand a CEO solely receives credit for successful operations? Obviously, the employees doing day-to-day work count either way you look at it. >>



I don't know where you got that, because I never said that. CEO's are ultimately responsible for both the failure and sucess of ANY company. And no, a reality of life is that a blue collar worker or general staff adds nothing to creating value for a company. They are easily replaced, CEO's aren't.



<< As far as Chrystler execs jumping ship, that happens simply because the grass looked greener on the other side once Daimler reigned in compensation. Your argument is weak, since it represents one transparent example. Of course those execs will jump ship if they can continue to find a sweet compensation package elsewhere, and their new masters are not willing to throw money at them. >>



Explain to me why my arguement is weak. The only thing that differentiated Chrystler pre/post merger was the management, the lower paid management took the 3rd largest automaker in the US and made them the 4th and cost Diamler $$$. Explain to me how paying management less helped chrystler?



<< The national economy grew at ~ 4% annually throughout the 1990s, while executive compensation shot through the roof. There is really very little evidence that the compensation gains were in any way attributed to performance. Much of the profit gains were realized in "downsizing" employees and the resultant improved "productivity". It doesn't take a genius to reduce headcount. Now if you still want to worship execs are gods, then that's your right to do so. >>



CEO's bottom line is their value to the shareholders. If the CEO results in the shareholders making more money then they did their job. To think otherwise is to frankly be pretty stupid. Value to shareholder's, repeat it to yourself a couple hundered times then look at the companies that pay their execs the most and their stock performance (keeping in mind there are always exceptions). I would also like to point out that shareholder value and company worth aren't necessarly tied directly to the national economy, we live in a world of multi-national corporations.
 
Don't you think that executives are paid what is fair based on the fact the they ACTUALLY ARE paid that much? Do you think that on their application they put down that they would like to get paid $40,000 per year and the company just said, "heck, let's give him $9.5 Million dollars and see what happens". No, they don't get paid any more than they have to get paid. It's supply and demand. If possible, kmart would have paid him $20,000 per year and a $200 layoff package. But no one would agree to those terms. Just because you are getting the shaft, doesn't mean that it's an unfair system.
 


<<

<< The wealthy of the world create poverty, but they can't bear to look at it. >>

This is one of the more remarkably absurd and ignorant (if not envy-based) statement I've read in a while. The wealthy of the world create wealth, poverty exists as trees or rocks exist. Man was born into an extremely meager and "hand-to-mouth" existence (ever see any 'wealthy' tribal cultures?). The wealthy of the world 'create' industry which lifts people out of poverty who would otherwise be born and die poor, not to mention they pay about 75% of all the taxes in this country.
>>



ROFL. It's humorous to hear you call it absurd and ignorant, when it's quite clear that you aren't familiar with the origin of that statement. Unfortunately, I only have available a more primitive translation from the original German:

"You'd all be rotting in the sewers of Wapping if I hadn't spent sleepless nights working out how to extract a few pence from your poverty. And I did work out something: that the rich of the earth indeed create misery, but they cannot bear to see it. They are weaklings and fools just like you."

It's from "The Beggar's Opera" by Bertolt Brecht, and the man making that statement is J.J. Peachum, a man who made his fortune by organizing and training beggars to beg more effectively. Sorry if you missed its meaning without more context, but the final message of the story is "Combat injustice but in moderation. Such things will freeze to death if left alone."

You say the wealthy "create" industry which lifts people out of poverty, but in truth, the business ventures of the wealthy rarely escalate anyone at the bottom out of poverty. Peachum symbolizes how if someone impoverished wants to climb out, he needs to make his own way and stop serving the wealthy.

Anyway, way off topic now. Isn't it just as bad that professional athletes get paid this much to play games? This is CAPITALISM. The CEO of my company built the company from nothing. Some people are jealous when they feel he's making out like a bandit and they don't get as much as he does.
To those, I'd advise to go start their own company 🙂
 


<< Gotta love ignorant generalizations such as the one above. Tell that to people enjoying the greatest quality of life living in social-democracies in Scandanavian countries... >>

lol! As they say: "This, too, shall pass."
 


<< Lets provide a real world example for you. Chrystler before their purchase by Diamler had 2 billion in cash, was cash flow positive and had some hugely successfull designs in their playbook. After the germans purchased them they refused to pay the executive salaries that Chrysler had been paying. What happened? Within 2 years Chrysler had burned through all cash reserves and was cash flow negative 2 billion last year. Diamler reacted by canceling production on tons of lines, firing the entire design staff (estimates I have heard is over 5000 engineers and 20,000 production workers) were fired. So if the "overpayed" executives at Chrysler were such a drain on the company why did their mass exodus from the company result in the loss of so many regular employees losing their jobs and a company on the ropes financially? Because the reason is simple, without those high paid executives the company can't survive in our economy. You get what you pay for. >>




Actually a little know and well covered fact is that Chrylser was in deep shiit even before the German Diamler folks took over. Some fancy cover-up apparently fooled Diamler. Needless to say they took a while to bounce back.

-j


 
It would have been a nice gesture for the CEO to redistribute his severance to the employees being fired, but I doubt that it would happen. Nobody gets to that high of a position in life without being a bit greedy and self-serving.

Besides, everything didn't exactly come up roses for this guy. He's now unemployed as well, and his reputation has been severely tarnished. KMart Stockholders now see him as "The CEO who f'ed up KMart" , and thousands of former KMart employees see him as "that moron who cost me my job" This guys job prospects just got a LOT worse.

It kinda reminds me of "Chainsaw" Al Dunlop. He used to be considered to be the greatest turnaround CEO in the world, when the only turnaround tactic that he really knew was cost-cutting via mass layoffs. When he joined Sunbeam, everyone thought that he was going to single-handedly save the company. When he flopped miserably and losses mounted, he was fired in discrace. Now, he disappeared into obscrurity, and pretty much considered to be a management has-been. A very RICH has-been, but a washup none the same.
 
If I'm going to hire some guy to run the company, I would put this in the contract, if you run a successful business, we will give u a nice severence package when u leave, if u run the company to the ground, we will give u the boot. Sound reasonable? Of course not, according to the way we do business in America.
 


<< Actually a little know and well covered fact is that Chrylser was in deep shiit even before the German Diamler folks took over. Some fancy cover-up apparently fooled Diamler. Needless to say they took a while to bounce back. >>



Diamler knew about Chryslers problem, they only had 2 billion in cash and we were heading into a recession. They wouldn't have survived. They merged to get access to financial reserves that Diamler had, to float the Chrysler division through the rough spot. The big problems started snowballing when Chryslers management left. Do you realize the dodge mini-van, the crown jewel of chyslers 80's turn around and one of the biggest production money makers in their lineup got a poor safety rating last year? (before Diamler took over the Dodge Caravan was rated the number one safest mini-van, and safety is a big concern with mini-van buyers). Diamler has crushed quite a few of the big lineup cars at Chrysler, heck half their cars are going to be rebranded mitsubishi's going forward.



<< If I'm going to hire some guy to run the company, I would put this in the contract, if you run a successful business, we will give u a nice severence package when u leave, if u run the company to the ground, we will give u the boot. Sound reasonable? Of course not, according to the way we do business in America. >>



You know, people qualified to run a multi-million dollar company are pretty hard to come by. Most executive searches take over a year these days and for the past couple of years a LOT of companies haven't been able to find people at all. In a market where the prospective CEO has 15 offers on his desk do you think with a clause like that you would actually get a CEO?

Market forces determine the amount CEO's recieve, the more demand the higher the price they come at.
 


<< ROFL. It's humorous to hear you call it absurd and ignorant, when it's quite clear that you aren't familiar with the origin of that statement...It's from "The Beggar's Opera" by Bertolt Brecht >>

Ah-ha! Now that I know the origin, I must revise my original comment. It is one of the more remarkably absurd and FOOLISH (as we know that Brecht wasn't ignorant, just foolish and delusional like any other Marxist) statements I've heard in a while...at least since the last time I've read some babbling Marxist. Thank you for pointing this bit of useless academic information out (though an absurd statement is no more 'enlightened' merely because of who said it - you can't polish a turd).

<< You say the wealthy "create" industry which lifts people out of poverty, but in truth, the business ventures of the wealthy rarely escalate anyone at the bottom out of poverty. >>

lol! No, only a billion or so people world-wide have been lifted by the industry of innovators and ambitious entrepeneurs from a meager hand-to-mouth existence to a modern standard of living including opportunities you're just not going to get from hunting, fishing, trapping, gathering berries, growing potatoes, building thatched-roof shacks and picking lice out of your hair. My ancestors went from the abject hand-to-mouth poverty they were born into, not force into or 'created' for them, to a middle class standard of living, by the business ventures of a few wealthy men (Henry Ford, Billy Durant, among others).

Only someone jaded enough, spoiled enough, fortunate enough, to have been born and raised in a contemporary standard of living, lacking any perspective on what the average 'existence' was like for the vast majority of the world 100 years ago (or even 50 years ago), could possibly make such an preposterous statement.

Again, poverty isn't "created", it is where we all begin, substantially more so without 'the business ventures of a few wealthy men'.
 


<<
Diamler knew about Chryslers problem, they only had 2 billion in cash and we were heading into a recession. They wouldn't have survived. They merged to get access to financial reserves that Diamler had, to float the Chrysler division through the rough spot. The big problems started snowballing when Chryslers management left. Do you realize the dodge mini-van, the crown jewel of chyslers 80's turn around and one of the biggest production money makers in their lineup got a poor safety rating last year? (before Diamler took over the Dodge Caravan was rated the number one safest mini-van, and safety is a big concern with mini-van buyers). Diamler has crushed quite a few of the big lineup cars at Chrysler, heck half their cars are going to be rebranded mitsubishi's going forward.
>>



Nope, the crash ratings of Chryslers Vans were quite crappy before too. Just look up NHTSA site. The problem was that competition like Ford, Honda, Toyota etc improved and got like 5 stars. Chrylser stayed whether they were. Rested too much on their past laurels.

And secondly, the current new Chrylser Van designs were frozen before the Diamler merger. Diamler knew that Chrylser had problems, but misjudged or were plain fooled (read cheated) about the extent of problems.

Look at all of current crop of Chrylsers, Neon, Statrus, etc all crappy. Only hit was the PT cruiser. Most os these designs were done before Diamler merger. Getting Mistubishi's rebranded as Chrysler is just a quick and less painful step in the short-run to prevent further hemmorrage.



-j

 
<< Yep. Forced income redistribution simply makes everyone equally poor.

Gotta love ignorant generalizations such as the one above. Tell that to people enjoying the greatest quality of life living in social-democracies in Scandanavian countries...

N >>





Try starting your own business there, and becoming a self made man.

"worker bee" doesn't count as a self made man, by the way.


Good comeback... I guess nobody has ever created their own business in Scadanavia. SAAB, Volvo, Ikea and many others must have all been started by "the State".
 


<< Tell that to people enjoying the greatest quality of life living in social-democracies in Scandanavian countries... >>

Again, like all socialist democracy slash welfare states in history, it too shall pass (when there are more people taking than contributing).
 
Our society, unfortunately, is a capitalistic society. Its self serving and greedy. Its run by people who act "moral" and pass judgement even though they lose it at the first smell of money. It is not fair and moral that the CEO gets millions in severance packages while 22,000 gets laid off but they don't give a sh**. Their philosophy is the needs of the few outweigh the needs of the many. Survival of the fittest. They say "go out there and make your own money". If only America is not run by white, Protestant males. Their 'trickle down' economics doesn't work, its been proven in the past. Only after massive spending by the government and the establishment of Social Security did America come out of the Depression. The average American is what runs the economy. They do the buying, if they don't have jobs and disposable income, the economy comes down. What works is trickle-up economics, start with the many at the bottom. I don't care if the CEO thinks he's worth $9 million. Not at the expense of 22,000 people.
 
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