yllus
Elite Member & Lifer
- Aug 20, 2000
- 20,577
- 432
- 126
I consider that first definition of sentience to be correct, not the second. But that's opinion.
What's also opinion is those several posts in this thread regarding the necessity of dealing with these kids. How many of you guys are psychologists again? Not very damned many I imagine. A further issue with imprisonment in this situation - what exactly is jailing an 18-year-old going to accomplish, other than giving him the opportunity to learn a few things worse than kitty torture while behind bars? If 100 hours of community service, the sobriety of being brought before a judge, his name being repeated countless times in the news, and the incredible hoopla generated by this event aren't enough - then nothing will be.
Locut0s
Lifer
- Nov 28, 2001
- 22,205
- 44
- 91
Cruelty to animals is indeed a precursor to cruelty to humans. However in my mind a prison sentence is more likely to just accelerate this kids down that path. This is the perfect situation for psychiatric intervention. Send the kid to mandatory psychiatric evaluations. Jail will only mean when he gets out he will be twice as likely to harm a person.
So, you're dismissing a perfectly reasonable conclusion that has been come to by several people on this thread (namely that extremely violent acts towards semi-sentient animals likely lead to violent acts towards humans) on the grounds that the people espousing this are not psychologists... but then expect us to care whether your opinion of what sentience is differs from the dictionary definition? Sorry, no dice.
"what exactly is jailing an 18-year-old going to accomplish"
1. deter others.
2. punishment
3. remove them from society for a period of time, for societies sake, not for the criminal's benefit.
4. criminal has time to decide if freedom is worth living by society's rules, otherwise society will remove them again.
these are all reasons why people develop the concept of imprisonment, you either believe it's a suitable response to anti-social activity, or not.
I'm confident that the vast majority of people consider torturing animals an anti-social activity.
The only reason for stupid policies like communtiy service, is we are too cheap to pay for enough prison space for all the people who should be in there. Or mental institutions in rare cases where criminals really don't know what they are doing.
I consider myself fairly liberal, but one area where I guess you could say I'm conservative is in dealing with people who will not live by the rule of law.
I think there's a good chance that harsher sentences for first time offenders would ultimately reduce the incidence of repeat criminals. Our system of leniency breeds criminals that think there is no price to pay for crime.
1. deter others.
2. punishment
3. remove them from society for a period of time, for societies sake, not for the criminal's benefit.
4. criminal has time to decide if freedom is worth living by society's rules, otherwise society will remove them again.
these are all reasons why people develop the concept of imprisonment, you either believe it's a suitable response to anti-social activity, or not.
I'm confident that the vast majority of people consider torturing animals an anti-social activity.
The only reason for stupid policies like communtiy service, is we are too cheap to pay for enough prison space for all the people who should be in there. Or mental institutions in rare cases where criminals really don't know what they are doing.
I consider myself fairly liberal, but one area where I guess you could say I'm conservative is in dealing with people who will not live by the rule of law.
I think there's a good chance that harsher sentences for first time offenders would ultimately reduce the incidence of repeat criminals. Our system of leniency breeds criminals that think there is no price to pay for crime.
Albatross
Platinum Member
- Jul 17, 2001
- 2,344
- 8
- 81
people that torture animals and than do the same with people later are natural born criminals and the fact that they tortured animals is just the begining and not the thing that leads to murder.the question is how d u know that he will become a criminal?
Actually, that is an entirely different question. It is also sort of irrelevant, because cruelty towards animals is a crime on its own merits, regardless of what it says about the perpetrator in relation to potential crimes.
People were simply arguing that someone like this is likely to move on to humans, not that that is why he should be punished.
Edit: Removed redundancy.
The thing is that the torture is unnecessary. It would be one thing if it couldn't be helped, but it could in this case.
Saying that torture is morally neutral or morally equivalent of instant murder is insanity.
Saying that torture is morally neutral or morally equivalent of instant murder is insanity.
He was not charged with killing a person, and no one here was accusing him of it.
As to your above argument: that's why even the most severe punishment is much laxer than the punishment earned from killing a person. Animal cruelty garners a lesser punishment, because it is considered a lesser crime. But it is still considered a punishable crime.
Albatross
Platinum Member
- Jul 17, 2001
- 2,344
- 8
- 81
in australia torturing an animal is considered a crime???
that is absurd.don`t the australians poison and hunt rabbits and cats to protect their crops or for fun?those animals die in pain no?
one american who tortured people in Abu Ghraib got 1 year and this guy in australia should get almost the same?
that is absurd.don`t the australians poison and hunt rabbits and cats to protect their crops or for fun?those animals die in pain no?
one american who tortured people in Abu Ghraib got 1 year and this guy in australia should get almost the same?
I don't see the big deal - they're just animals.
What is a cause for concern is what would make people act like this - people don't torture and kill things because they're mentally stable and at peace with the world.
But honestly, the entire outrage for kittens/puppies/blahblah is simply because people have them as pets. All the pet owners do not go up in arms when another animals is being exterminated and eliminated from the world. Total hypocrisy.
Of course, if this kitten was someone's property, then there should be problems.
What is a cause for concern is what would make people act like this - people don't torture and kill things because they're mentally stable and at peace with the world.
But honestly, the entire outrage for kittens/puppies/blahblah is simply because people have them as pets. All the pet owners do not go up in arms when another animals is being exterminated and eliminated from the world. Total hypocrisy.
Of course, if this kitten was someone's property, then there should be problems.
Pic of William (the kitten) at the RSPCA site
Little Braveheart loses his fight for life
William, the 12 week old kitten who was found in the Mt Druitt area after allegedly being doused with petrol and set alight two weeks ago, passed away overnight (6-7 February 2005) after fighting hard for his life.
?William? (named after William Wallace ? ?Braveheart?) passed away in his sleep at a specialist clinic at Sydney University Veterinary Hospital, following the first in a series of surgical procedures needed to reconstruct his badly damaged skin. Despite the efforts of staff, all attempts to revive William were unsuccessful.
RSPCA Senior Veterinarian Dr Simone Maher, who cared for William throughout his ordeal, said William was not in pain when he died, due to the provision of constant strong pain relief.
?William's fighting spirit and continued trust in, and affection for, human beings - despite his ordeal - were touching and inspirational,? said Simone.
?He found his way into many hearts.
?He was a very brave kitten and we gave him the best possible chance we could. In the end William just ran out of fight.?
A youth and a man are due to face Cobham Children?s Court and Penrith Local Court respectively on February 21, following a joint Police/ RSPCA investigation.
The RSPCA thanks all who sent cards, letters and donations to help William in his recovery and also thanks all Sydney University Vet School staff involved in helping William.
The Society has a strong association with the school through its work as an external teaching hospital of the faculty.
lol. Make no mistake, I am totally against the torture of animals, since it's completely unnecessary. But the attempt to humanize and attribute human emotions to animals that can't even think about their own future is ridiculous and laughable.
Albatross
Platinum Member
- Jul 17, 2001
- 2,344
- 8
- 81
look this is emotional stuff.that man is a deranged lowlife.but go to prison?
probably u like animals,i don`t.
"William's fighting spirit and continued trust in, and affection for, human beings - despite his ordeal - were touching and inspirational,? said Simone.give me a break.THAT IS A CAT.
So you think a kitten is incapable of experiencing emotional states like fear, pain, contentment, affection? I don't think these emotions are intrinsically human emotions, it seems quite reasonable to expect that many non-human species are able to experience these emotions too.
yllus
Elite Member & Lifer
- Aug 20, 2000
- 20,577
- 432
- 126
Why is it "perfectly reasonable"? Because your own emotions react strongly to the thought of a kitten being tortured? Sorry, that's an unsubstantiated leap of logic no matter how you try to justify it. Back it up with studies and the scientific proof or don't make that claim.
*raises eyebrows* You mean you expect the thought of jailtime to deter "future serial killers"/"natural born criminals"? Somehow I don't see that kind of person straightening out because of a news story or two. If anything, a young person with these tendencies is the perfect person to intercept on the way to the slammer to try and rehabilitate, instead of demonizing them and carting them away to jail for a couple of months.
I'd say death penalty. Not because I give a rat's ass about the cat (I don't) and not because the cat's rights were violated (cats don't have rights), but because anyone who could commit such an act is *clearly* not playing with a full bag of marbles.
Jason
I guess you've never seen a squirrel gathering nuts before winter, or a dog burying a bone for later..
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