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killswitch legalities

J

Jasonp

Junior Member
Hi all. Here's a scenario and need some advice.
Worked as a salaried employed for a long time for a guy as a designer and server,sql admin, etc and he started to run into some money troubles - promises promises, blah blah.... So, long story short it's been over 18 months since he last paid me (owes me $40k in backpay) and 3 years since the issues arose. I haven't worked for him for the last 18 months. He hasn't since even mentioned he'd pay me for that. I've got a killswitch embeded on the server that will delete all the code and data in the sql databases.
Just wondering if any of you have any experience with this legally? Or thoughts about it.
I do have all the back ups, etc so once he paid I would be able to give it all to him.
I've been rolling this around for awhile so any thoughts would be appreciated
 
I'm no lawyer but that sounds like a mix of extortion and criminal tampering with the systems.

You might want to talk to a lawyer about a civil suit to collect the money, instead of committing felonies.
 
If you want to have a kill switch, you have to own/rent the servers yourself. That way you are just "suspending service" until payment is caught up.

If you coded in a "back door" to an app he or someone else is hosting, you can get yourself in a lot of trouble. My advice is to remove it before it is found.

Please EXHAUST all possible attempts to get him to catch up on what he owes you before taking any sort of action.
 
Jasonp said:
they're godaddy dedicated servers..not sure if that makes a difference
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Are you paying for them yourself? Or is he?

If you are paying for them, then they are "your" servers, and you can "suspend service".

If he is paying for them, and you activate a kill switch, you could literally be declared a terrorist, and that's not an exaggeration, prosecutors have been known to go nuts with this sort of thing. Or at the very least, face criminal charges.
 
lol. I worked for him for many many years before this happened so wanted to give him a chance, etc, etc. but he doesn't seem interested in restitution for all that.
He's paying the hosting.
 
If you're looking for a more benign method, there's always good old code obfuscation, and "feature" additions that create bugs.

Rewrite the app from scratch in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brainfuck

Then just tell him you're not interested in doing more work for him until you get your back pay.
 
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Yeah, i haven't worked for him for about 18 months now but he doesn't want to even talk to me as he knows he owes. Sites are all still up but there basically 'dead' in the water...ie not making any money or anything. I think he's basically given up on internet stuff and has moved onto something else.
 
OP, this is such a horrible idea I was tempted to lock the thread. And as fair warning, if there is any attempt at discussing further the implementation of your kill switch, whether to use it, or how to use it, then the thread will be locked.

For now I'll leave it open so you can continue to get advice on how to deal with this guy. Personally, I don't know how to advise you on this. Planting a backdoor intended to destroy the work product was a very bad idea. I would talk to a lawyer and tell him the entire story, including exactly what you did, and see what he or she has to say.

Lastly, you should think about what motivated you to this decision, and challenge your own reactions. Two wrongs don't make a right. Your action was immature and vindictive, and could only have been intended to make you feel better by hurting the other party. It was not businesslike or professional, and a tendency toward reactions like that is not going to serve you well in the future.
 
I'm no lawyer so take this for what it is, but if you have legit grounds that he owes you money and can prove it, you're going to probably have to take him to court. Since the amount is higher than most small claims courts can get you that means a lawyer which is going to cost you a chunk of that 40k.

Other than that, I think you're only other options are to to wait for him to pay you voluntarily or just wash your hands of it altogether.
 
If Microsoft did it, it would be legal because they're a big corporation. (ex: the WGA tool that kills your OS if its pirated) but because you're an individual, you'd probably find yourself in some hot water.

Please don't discuss ideas for sabotaging the software that the OP wrote for his or her employer.

Markbnj
Programming mod
 
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Hm, he's using your software, but he didn't pay for it, right? So he's using it without a proper license? In that case, you could probably call the BSA on him. Although I have to say I wouldn't wish a BSA audit on my worst enemy, it's legal.
 
Red Squirrel said:
If Microsoft did it, it would be legal because they're a big corporation. (ex: the WGA tool that kills your OS if its pirated) but because you're an individual, you'd probably find yourself in some hot water.

Indeed - Markbnj
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You're suggesting what's probably* criminal tampering and extortion, not a good idea.

MS can disable pirated software through WGA since first, it's pirated, and second, you still clicked through EULA screens on your pirated OS.

( * me not lawyer! )
 
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DaveSimmons said:
You're suggesting what's probably* criminal tampering and extortion, not a good idea.

MS can disable pirated software through WGA since first, it's pirated, and second, you still clicked through EULA screens on your pirated OS.

( * me not lawyer! )
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See that's what I mean, it's kinda sad that MS can get away with it but not an individual. This customer is essentially doing the same thing as pirating by not paying for services yet using the software that should be getting paid for. Stupid that some silly checkbox on a book nobody reads can make the difference because it's a big corporation that did it.

I'd still do it, it would be hard to prove that you tampered with it, though best bet is to go in to fix something, which actually introduces a bug, then simply stop supporting it till they pay up. If there is already a potential bug, then perfect. Just leave it at that. Refuse to generate any updates until they pay + prepay from now on for any further service. Does the system have any kind of auto update service? That would be the best bet. You don't want to do anything too obvious, just some kind of annoyance like throw in a couple wild pointers or something to cause a random crash that's hard to reproduce. Would look like a legit mistake.
 
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Red Squirrel said:
See that's what I mean, it's kinda sad that MS can get away with it but not an individual. This customer is essentially doing the same thing as pirating by not paying for services yet using the software that should be getting paid for. Stupid that some silly checkbox on a book nobody reads can make the difference because it's a big corporation that did it.
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You're really stretching that analogy beyond reason. Microsoft and its software licensees enter into an agreement. Courts have reviewed those agreements and found them valid and binding. The agreements set forth the rights and remedies of all parties. The OP, by his or her own description, was a salaried employee.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Work_for_hire
 
Red Squirrel said:
See that's what I mean, it's kinda sad that MS can get away with it but not an individual. This customer is essentially doing the same thing as pirating by not paying for services yet using the software that should be getting paid for. Stupid that some silly checkbox on a book nobody reads can make the difference because it's a big corporation that did it.

I'd still do it, it would be hard to prove that you tampered with it, though best bet is to go in to fix something, which actually introduces a bug, then simply stop supporting it till they pay up. If there is already a potential bug, then perfect. Just leave it at that. Refuse to generate any updates until they pay + prepay from now on for any further service. Does the system have any kind of auto update service? That would be the best bet. You don't want to do anything too obvious, just some kind of annoyance like throw in a couple wild pointers or something to cause a random crash that's hard to reproduce. Would look like a legit mistake.
Click to expand...

Wow, your legal advice is just as bad as your technical advice.
 
Red Squirrel said:
See that's what I mean, it's kinda sad that MS can get away with it but not an individual. This customer is essentially doing the same thing as pirating by not paying for services yet using the software that should be getting paid for. Stupid that some silly checkbox on a book nobody reads can make the difference because it's a big corporation that did it.

I'd still do it, it would be hard to prove that you tampered with it, though best bet is to go in to fix something, which actually introduces a bug, then simply stop supporting it till they pay up. If there is already a potential bug, then perfect. Just leave it at that. Refuse to generate any updates until they pay + prepay from now on for any further service. Does the system have any kind of auto update service? That would be the best bet. You don't want to do anything too obvious, just some kind of annoyance like throw in a couple wild pointers or something to cause a random crash that's hard to reproduce. Would look like a legit mistake.
Click to expand...

Dudeyourbedisacar.png
 
Definitely not legal.

With that being said I'd be lying if I said i didn't sympathize with you. However I find it strange that you didn't have a contract with this company?

if you have signed an agreement and can prove he didn't pay your salary, why is it so difficult to go through the legal system? I have a feeling this "guy" is a friend and you worked off the books.

Either way, if you destroy his business by running a remote exploit that you coded on his machine and it gets traced back to you then you're in big trouble. I mean just read the newspapers. Kids at the age of 16 getting caught for DOS attacks are getting dragged in by the police. What do you think they will do to you for remotely wiping the server of a company with your own hidden backdoor?
 
Markbnj said:
You're really stretching that analogy beyond reason. Microsoft and its software licensees enter into an agreement. Courts have reviewed those agreements and found them valid and binding. The agreements set forth the rights and remedies of all parties. The OP, by his or her own description, was a salaried employee.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Work_for_hire
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Give him a chance to rip on corporations or capitalism and he'll take it, even if it doesn't make sense. Being clueless ftw.
 
I'm just pointing out the fact that it's stupid that a big company can get away with this stuff because of some silly agreement or other political/legal stuff, but an individual can't. It just shows who's side the law is always on. Doesn't anyone else see this as being completely retarded? OP is not getting paid for work he's done yet it would be illegal for him to stop providing the service while if it was a mega corporation they can do what they want. Does not jive with me. Did not want to turn this political.

Safest bet is probably just getting a lawyer involved at this point as it sounds like it could be a touchy situation. At the very least you could try to see if you can legally stop providing further services to that company. Wonder if you could get a credit agency on their ass too. I think only big companies can do that though.
 
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