Killing by a drone - one story

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Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
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I meant since that it isn't concrete that the boys were killed by a missile strike, it seems inaccurate in this instance to be attributing their deaths to accidental strikes/wrong targets as there have been in the past.

You're greatly exaggerating the issue - inaccurately - of the question about this. The word appears to simply be tied to relying on the reports of others (his uncle is named).

That does not at all make it 'seem to be inaccurate' as you said.

There is nothing suggested at all that there is question about it. They added the two children to the list of 'known children to have been killed' by predator missiles.
 

akahoovy

Golden Member
May 1, 2011
1,336
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By word of mouth if there were no witnesses as to who or what killed them? Who investigated this?

The article sounds trumped up, Craig. The two reporters met these kids, they died, the uncle confirmed who they were, and what? Who came to the conclusion it was a drone missile strike?
 

Gamingphreek

Lifer
Mar 31, 2003
11,679
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The only uncertainty is his saying 'believed' to have been killed by a drone. Not believed he MIGHT have been, but believed he was. Not exactly concrete, but not really uncertain.

What do you mean this instance seems inaccurate?

Not anything in the article or that has been posted suggest whatsoever that it's 'inaccurate'.

It seems quite accurate from what we've seen.

We are questioning it because he didn't provide any evidence whatsoever. He said they died by what they thought was a hell-fire missile and then he launches right into a diatribe about remote launched missiles from Langley (Which he honestly can't have any clue about). Assuming it was a missile in the first place, he doesn't even know whether it was American or not!

Honestly, the kids are in the middle east where there are seemingly thousands of things that can kill you... How is a drone strike the first thing that comes to mind?

Terrorists? No.
Corrupt Governments? No.
IED? No.
Other country? No.
...
...
America? Definitely.

Even if it was the US that ordered the strike, why is the first assumption malicious? Once again, its the middle east!!!

Mis-fire? No.
Actionable intel? No.
Collateral Damage? No. Unacceptable if it is.
Malicious? No doubt.

Stuff like this which clearly illustrates an agenda against the US with total disregard for other possibilities makes me sick.

-GP
 

Gamingphreek

Lifer
Mar 31, 2003
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You're greatly exaggerating the issue - inaccurately - of the question about this. The word appears to simply be tied to relying on the reports of others (his uncle is named).

That does not at all make it 'seem to be inaccurate' as you said.

There is nothing suggested at all that there is question about it. They added the two children to the list of 'known children to have been killed' by predator missiles.

Because Wikipedia can't be changed by anyone in the universe.... :rolleyes:
 

DucatiMonster696

Diamond Member
Aug 13, 2009
4,269
1
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Moving article about one drone killing. 16 year old boy and his 12 year old cousin.

We sure wouldn't tolerate any country doing this to us in the US.

The author of the article claims it's murder. I think he has a point.

The killing somehow seems easy to many to excuse and rationalize, it's de-personalized from a distance, easy to view as a 'mistake'. I think that's a mistake.

No one had to pull on my heart strings to see the error and danger in the precedent set by Obama when he issued a kill order against a US citizen without a trial.

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2097899,00.html
 
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KlokWyze

Diamond Member
Sep 7, 2006
4,451
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www.dogsonacid.com
My argument is that this killing is unavoidable collateral damage. Sure, maybe it was a mistake. Guess what? Mistakes unavoidably happen in war, and sometimes innocent people die for it. It's one of the many reasons war sucks.

I'm saying the CIA/military has no interest in killing innocent kids. Even from the coldest, most callous perspective it's a waste of resources (hellfire missiles are expensive). The only way to avoid stories like the one you posted is to never go to war. If people are outraged by this, then they should turn that outrage to the politicians who got us into this mess and not the instruments of the politicians' policy.

I agree with this. Don't support wars that only benefit private military companies. Cut federal military spending.
 

GarfieldtheCat

Diamond Member
Jan 7, 2005
3,708
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Everyone here is 100% sure that the boys had NOTHING to do with the terrorist goups?

Guilty until proven innocent, huh? Then kill them before they can defend themselves.

Some real evidence (instead of made-up BS that people are posting) :

CIA claims no innocent civilians killed in drone attacks, shown to be a lie (geez, just the OP shows it's a lie)

NYT

The debate has intensified since President Obama’s top counterterrorism adviser, John O. Brennan, clearly referring to the classified drone program, said in June that for almost a year, “there hasn’t been a single collateral death because of the exceptional proficiency, precision of the capabilities we’ve been able to develop.” Other officials say that extraordinary claim still holds: since May 2010, C.I.A. officers believe, the drones have killed more than 600 militants — including at least 20 in a strike reported Wednesday — and not a single noncombatant.

Of course, some people would say the government never lies, so it must be the truth. But at least one person is investigating the drone strikes, by actually going to the sites instead of relying on government propaganda:

Link

"For every 10 to 15 people killed, maybe they get one militant," he said. "I don't go to count how many Taliban are killed. I go to count how many children, women, innocent people, are killed."

Kill 10-15 innocent people for (maybe) one terrorist, what a brilliant plan! Kill one, piss off 10+ more that might become terrorists, or at the very least, hate us the rest of their lives. Brilliant!!! If the police did that here, y'all would scream bloody murder, but since you don't know them, you don't care.
 

Nebor

Lifer
Jun 24, 2003
29,582
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Excellent story, and I agree that is absolutely stunning that a pilot in Nevada can fly a plane 7000 miles away in Pakistan and fire a missile that strikes a moving car. We truly live in the greatest country in the history of our planet. :thumbsup:
 

GarfieldtheCat

Diamond Member
Jan 7, 2005
3,708
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Excellent story, and I agree that is absolutely stunning that a pilot in Nevada can fly a plane 7000 miles away in Pakistan and fire a missile that strikes a moving car. We truly live in the greatest country in the history of our planet. :thumbsup:

Trolling non-stop since 2003.
 

GarfieldtheCat

Diamond Member
Jan 7, 2005
3,708
1
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Are you honestly comparing a possible drone strike that was possibly a mistake in a hostile zone overseas to our local police department?!?

-GP

I am claiming the government lies (again). They claim no innocents were killed. Evidence strongly suggests lots of innocent people, including women and kids have been killed.

Are we at war with Pakistan? We are certainly killing innocent civilians in their own country. And from what people who actually are investigating the attack strikes, we are killing 10-15 innocent bystanders for every possibly guilty terrorist.

Seem fair to you? Sustainable strategy? Good for PR and winning "hearts and minds"?
 

Gamingphreek

Lifer
Mar 31, 2003
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I am claiming the government lies (again). They claim no innocents were killed. Evidence strongly suggests lots of innocent people, including women and kids have been killed.

Are we at war with Pakistan? We are certainly killing innocent civilians in their own country. And from what people who actually are investigating the attack strikes, we are killing 10-15 innocent bystanders for every possibly guilty terrorist.

Seem fair to you? Sustainable strategy? Good for PR and winning "hearts and minds"?

Evidence strongly suggests, huh? So this "Progressive Reporter", who isn't American, saying "it appears to be a hellfire missile" is your strong evidence? Got any more of it? Man if this is strong evidence all of a sudden, people who are going to court should really be worried.

Innocent civilians are dying in their country. The USA is not actively targeting and gunning down innocent civilians. As was said earlier, even from the coldest perspective possible, it simply wouldn't make any sense!!

Are you anti-American or something? Even if you disagree with every facet of why we are in the Middle East, you can't argue that the US has EVER condoned the slaughtering of innocent civilians. If you disagree with that, you should probably start wondering whether you should seek medical attention for paranoia...

-GP
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
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We are questioning it because he didn't provide any evidence whatsoever. He said they died by what they thought was a hell-fire missile and then he launches right into a diatribe about remote launched missiles from Langley (Which he honestly can't have any clue about). Assuming it was a missile in the first place, he doesn't even know whether it was American or not!

Who knows which country's drone is out blowing up cars in the middle east? Blame Canada.
 

Nebor

Lifer
Jun 24, 2003
29,582
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I am claiming the government lies (again). They claim no innocents were killed. Evidence strongly suggests lots of innocent people, including women and kids have been killed.

Are we at war with Pakistan? We are certainly killing innocent civilians in their own country. And from what people who actually are investigating the attack strikes, we are killing 10-15 innocent bystanders for every possibly guilty terrorist.

Seem fair to you? Sustainable strategy? Good for PR and winning "hearts and minds"?

No, but Pakistan is at war with us, and unable to control their own country.

And you're more willing to take the accounts of anti-American Pakis than your own government. The people being killed are living in a region totally abandoned by the Pakistani government. Who knows what killed the people. It's a lawless land full of terrorists and mercenaries.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
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Innocent civilians are dying in their country. The USA is not actively targeting and gunning down innocent civilians. As was said earlier, even from the coldest perspective possible, it simply wouldn't make any sense!!

The holocaust never happened. It would have diverted resources from the war, so the German leadership would not do it.

That's the same logic you apply. I'm not comparing the US to the Nazis there, I'm applying your logic to the Nazis just to point out how ludicrous it is.

Let's say the US has a kill/nokill decision for a car that has a 1%, 10%, 50%, or 90% probability of a terrorist in it. For which of those does it kill?

The cost to the US for killing civilians is what? That's not 'targeting civilians' - if the chance is almost zero, they wouldn't do it.

It's a question where they draw the line between the risk of killing civilians - what's the cost of that to them - and killing a terrorist - what's the value, their main mission.

The US is spending a FORTUNE to be involved in the war, and killing terrorists is the whole reason the drones are there, the military is operating them. So when there's some chance of killing a terrorist, what are the odds at which they'll choose to kill in hopes of getting a terrorist?

Here's a fact that might help answer:

When Iraq was bombed just before the invasion, the US didn't want to kill innocent civilians, either, but it wanted to kill Saddam. So the orders were that bombing targets expected to have more than 30 civilian casualties required approval by the Secretary of Defense, to make sure the odds justified the attack. I don't remember exactly how many were submitted for approval - it might have been 49 - but every one was approved. And not a single one was correct at hitting Saddam. Do the math.

Are you anti-American or something? Even if you disagree with every facet of why we are in the Middle East, you can't argue that the US has EVER condoned the slaughtering of innocent civilians. If you disagree with that, you should probably start wondering whether you should seek medical attention for paranoia...

-GP

The above should help give you a little clue that the issue isn't 'targeting innocent civilians' but how low the bar is on their being allowed to be killed as 'collateral damage'.

When the US is spending billions and being measured on their success by the number of terrorists killed, and the price for killing innocents is at most a few thousand dollars to compensate their families and maybe some money for the community in some cases, it's a very fair question to ask about the issue.

IIRC over 3000 civilians have been killed by the drones. That says killing civilians is an issue, and your 'doesn't target civilians' while true isn't the issue.
 
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Nebor

Lifer
Jun 24, 2003
29,582
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When the US is spending billions and being measured on their success by the number of terrorists killed, and the price for killing innocents is at most a few thousand dollars to compensate their families and maybe some money for the community in some cases, it's a very fair question to ask about the issue.

Seems like your question and answer are all wrapped up there...
 

Gamingphreek

Lifer
Mar 31, 2003
11,679
0
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IIRC over 3000 civilians have been killed by the drones. That says killing civilians is an issue, and your 'doesn't target civilians' while true isn't the issue.

How about some figures and proof outside of some shady journalist that just says something may have happened...
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
35,924
10,252
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If people are outraged by this, then they should turn that outrage to the politicians who got us into this mess and not the instruments of the politicians' policy.

Or perhaps outrage towards the politicians who refuse to get us out. President Obama being one of them.

No, we sure wouldn't, just like we wouldn't tolerate "lawless tribal areas" in our country or have parts of the area under control of terrorist groups (OWS notwithstanding). Don't want other countries having to fly over and take out the bad guys? Take control of your own country and do it yourself.

^This, so very much.

US involvement in Pakistan is a direct consequence of Pakistan not controlling its own nation.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
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They need a lot more of this if you want citizens to roll their militants. Most people don't like dying, militants use that to their advantage and so should we. Like we used to carpet bombing whole cities back when we used to actually win wars, in 4 short years or less.

If you guys don't have stomach for what works - either don't go to war or prepare for perpetual war.
 
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Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
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They need a lot more of this if you want citizens to roll their militants. Most people don't like dying, militants use that to their advantage and so should we. Like we used to carpet bombing whole cities back when we used to actually win wars, in 4 short years or less.

If you guys don't have stomach for what works - either don't go to war or prepare for perpetual war.

Have I said lately you are an immoral sociopath and son of a bitch?

I did now. And you're wrong, on top of it. You are clueless about how to have peace.
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
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Great story, one less future suicide soldier to deal with.

So it is completely "fair game" when they fly planes into our buildings? One less "future soldier to deal with" eh?

Killing innocents, while a horrible and almost unavoidable side effect of war, should never be excused in a way that you do.