Kia slapped down by EPA (big one: Soul gets 6 MPG adjustment highway)

[Kaido]

http://www.epa.gov/fueleconomy/labelchange.htm

Ouch. It's funny because I have a 2012 Kia Soul, and I consistently have gotten 28 MPG since I got it, which is exactly what the EPA said (28 MPG, not 34 as advertised). I chalked it up to standard marketing baloney and the fact that it's a not-very-aerodynamic box shape - and to me, 28 MPG is still great mileage! This stuff all came out last November, but I'm just hearing about it now.

EPA has announced that Hyundai and Kia will lower their fuel economy (MPG) estimates for the majority of their model year 2012 and 2013 vehicle models as the result of an EPA investigation of test data.

Cars currently on dealer lots will be re-labeled by the auto company with new window stickers reflecting the corrected mileage estimates. The mileage on most vehicle labels will be reduced by 1 to 2 MPG, and the largest adjustment will be 6 MPG highway for the Kia Soul.

Some more articles:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jimgorz...slams-hyundai-and-kia-for-overestimating-mpg/

http://articles.latimes.com/2012/nov/02/business/la-fi-mo-hyundai-kia-mpg-claims-20121102

Looks like I gotta go find me some reimbursement :awe:

http://www.examiner.com/article/hyu...ratings-were-inflated-owners-to-be-reimbursed

 

[Jimzz]

"The mileage on most vehicle labels will be reduced by 1 to 2 MPG"

Yea I was expecting the 1-2mpg drop as I can see someone trying to reach the magic "40" number and squeeze it a little tighter. But a drop of 6mpg is hugh.

 

[vi edit]

The entire fuel rating system is a scam and needs a deep cleaning. I've been skeptical all along for fuel ratings. For *YEARS* 32-34 MPG was a magical mark that very few cars were able to exceed. Then BAM. We suddenly have a dozen models that can get 35+ MPG when the CAFE standards start to creep up? It's a joke. Very few cars can acheive their current sticker ratings or come even remotely close.

Hyundai has been bitchslapped for their scamming of the system, and others will follow (Ford & hybrids...looking at you).

There needs to be more *real* reporting and testing on the labels. Take a model, fill it up with gas, stick a family of 4 in it, and stick them on the interstate at speeds of 65+ MPH for an hour and report what the *real* milage is on the sticker.

Not some lab similuated figure at optimum conditions that very few people would ever be able to recreate.

More consumers need to start fighting back on the reality of MPG and forcing car manufacturers to be more honest about their ratings.

 

[Kaido]

The entire fuel rating system is a scam and needs a deep cleaning. I've been skeptical all along for fuel ratings. For *YEARS* 32-34 MPG was a magical mark that very few cars were able to exceed. Then BAM. We suddenly have a dozen models that can get 35+ MPG when the CAFE standards start to creep up? It's a joke. Very few cars can acheive their current sticker ratings or come even remotely close.

Hyundai has been bitchslapped for their scamming of the system, and others will follow (Ford & hybrids...looking at you).

There needs to be more *real* reporting and testing on the labels. Take a model, fill it up with gas, stick a family of 4 in it, and stick them on the interstate at speeds of 65+ MPH for an hour and report what the *real* milage is on the sticker.

Not some lab similuated figure at optimum conditions that very few people would ever be able to recreate.

More consumers need to start fighting back on the reality of MPG and forcing car manufacturers to be more honest about their ratings.

Yeah, but part of the difficulty is measuring & promoting usage. I drive mostly highway to work, by myself. My brother drives 5, mostly city. Add in A/C and stereo usage, and you have vastly different MPG results for the same car. So what's the most appropriate rating system? Plus the ratio of MPG, like in this example: ("16 to 20 mpg can help save as much gas as 33 to 50 mpg")

http://nudges.wordpress.com/why-we-misunderstand-what-miles-per-gallon-ratings-are-telling-us/

 

[Ryan]

Isn't this pretty old news by now?

 

[Kaido]

This stuff all came out last November, but I'm just hearing about it now.

Isn't this pretty old news by now?

:thumbsup:

 

[Mermaidman]

repost

To make up the problem, the automakers have agreed to issue debit cards to owners of models that were sold with overstated mileage figures. Vehicle owners will be able to take their car or SUV to a dealership to have the odometer checked and the number of miles driven recorded. Owners will then receive a debit card based on the miles driven and the average local price of gasoline, plus an additional 15%. Owners can have their odometers checked and get a debit as often as they like as long as they own the car.

Hey OP, let us know how it goes with getting your compensation. It's like owning a dividend-paying stock!

 

[LTC8K6]

repost

To make up the problem, the automakers have agreed to issue debit cards to owners of models that were sold with overstated mileage figures. Vehicle owners will be able to take their car or SUV to a dealership to have the odometer checked and the number of miles driven recorded. Owners will then receive a debit card based on the miles driven and the average local price of gasoline, plus an additional 15%. Owners can have their odometers checked and get a debit as often as they like as long as they own the car.

Hey OP, let us know how it goes with getting your compensation. It's like owning a dividend-paying stock!

They manufacture money/gasoline. Sweet.

 

[gus6464]

This was my commute from work yesterday with my Prius all highway.

And no this was not driving like a grandma down the I-15. Speeds were 65-70mph with 3 major choke points which is why it took me 34 mins to get home.

 

[A5]

The entire fuel rating system is a scam and needs a deep cleaning. I've been skeptical all along for fuel ratings. For *YEARS* 32-34 MPG was a magical mark that very few cars were able to exceed. Then BAM. We suddenly have a dozen models that can get 35+ MPG when the CAFE standards start to creep up? It's a joke. Very few cars can acheive their current sticker ratings or come even remotely close.

Hyundai has been bitchslapped for their scamming of the system, and others will follow (Ford & hybrids...looking at you).

There needs to be more *real* reporting and testing on the labels. Take a model, fill it up with gas, stick a family of 4 in it, and stick them on the interstate at speeds of 65+ MPH for an hour and report what the *real* milage is on the sticker.

Not some lab similuated figure at optimum conditions that very few people would ever be able to recreate.

More consumers need to start fighting back on the reality of MPG and forcing car manufacturers to be more honest about their ratings.

Too many variables that are outside the control of the test. You'd have all the manufacturers using a "family" of 4 small people, waiting for perfect weather conditions, using roads with more downhill than uphill, etc. EPA testing is seriously messed up, but there's a reason it's the way it is.

 

[madoka]

This was my commute from work yesterday with my Prius all highway.

That's nothing.

I did this in my Nissan:

 

[gus6464]

That's nothing.

I did this in my Nissan:

Which Nissan?

 

[madoka]

Which Nissan?

GT-R

 

[ElFenix]

GT-R

instantaneous downhill with a tailwind?

The entire fuel rating system is a scam and needs a deep cleaning. I've been skeptical all along for fuel ratings. For *YEARS* 32-34 MPG was a magical mark that very few cars were able to exceed. Then BAM. We suddenly have a dozen models that can get 35+ MPG when the CAFE standards start to creep up? It's a joke. Very few cars can acheive their current sticker ratings or come even remotely close.

Hyundai has been bitchslapped for their scamming of the system, and others will follow (Ford & hybrids...looking at you).

There needs to be more *real* reporting and testing on the labels. Take a model, fill it up with gas, stick a family of 4 in it, and stick them on the interstate at speeds of 65+ MPH for an hour and report what the *real* milage is on the sticker.

Not some lab similuated figure at optimum conditions that very few people would ever be able to recreate.

More consumers need to start fighting back on the reality of MPG and forcing car manufacturers to be more honest about their ratings.

if the car makers made representations other than the EPA mileage test results, it might constitute a warranty under state law. the EPA mileage tests explicitly cannot constitute a warranty, so the EPA numbers are the only numbers you'll ever see.

the current "highway" test looks more like a suburban commute than anything else. which makes sense as that's how the vast majority of miles of passenger cars are racked up each year. those aren't loaded up with families of 4, have plenty of slow time, usually some fast time, etc. that's part of the reason the ford hybrids do well on it, if you can keep the car under 62 mph it can stay in electric. if you're not under 62 they're a lot more like normal cars than something extremely focused on fuel economy like a prius. on top of that, they'll run the engine to charge the battery *and* right now they run the engine for heat. ford could have avoided much of the negative press had they released the cars in the spring.

the fast raise in fuel economy isn't so much as scam as it is things like spending time in wind tunnels, minimizing internal friction, rapidly improving engine management, use of mechanical aero devices to effectively change the car's shape at highway speeds, etc. that stuff adds several thousand dollars to the cost of the vehicle, which no one wanted to do when there wasn't a mandate and gas cost $1 a gallon. but that's different from not knowing how to do it. over a decade ago the union of concerned scientists published an eco-explorer that traded the V6 powered, rwd ladder frame for a turbo I4 fwd unibody model for fuel economy purposes. and guess what we have now?

 

[gus6464]

instantaneous downhill with a tailwind?

Haha I was thinking the same thing.

 

[Zor Prime]

More consumers need to start fighting back on the reality of MPG and forcing car manufacturers to be more honest about their ratings.

Another solution is to quit buying from companies that are lying to you.

There's some that aren't.

 

[NutBucket]

This. To add to that some cars are simply more sensitive to driving style than others.

 

[phucheneh]

Instantaneous readings don't even need the 'downhill with a tailwind' part.

If it's under decel and using zero gas, it's gonna read 99 or whatever the limit is.

Also 28mpg highway for a Soul seems kinda bad. I manage better than that in my Mazda3 with a 2.0L engine. IIRC the Soul uses the Hyundai 2.0 which has about the same power output.

The reason I'm surprised I would get more is because that car has somewhat aggressive gearing. And I speed. If I can get ~30mpg at 3500+rpm on the interstate, I would think the Soul could, too. What kinda trans has that got?

If it's an auto, it sounds like they need better software. I bet it's a case of 'I refuse to downshift unless you floor it, so enjoy wasting gas by opening up the throttle at 2000rpm' syndrome.

 

[BUTCH1]

The entire fuel rating system is a scam and needs a deep cleaning. I've been skeptical all along for fuel ratings. For *YEARS* 32-34 MPG was a magical mark that very few cars were able to exceed. Then BAM. We suddenly have a dozen models that can get 35+ MPG when the CAFE standards start to creep up? It's a joke. Very few cars can acheive their current sticker ratings or come even remotely close.

Hyundai has been bitchslapped for their scamming of the system, and others will follow (Ford & hybrids...looking at you).

There needs to be more *real* reporting and testing on the labels. Take a model, fill it up with gas, stick a family of 4 in it, and stick them on the interstate at speeds of 65+ MPH for an hour and report what the *real* milage is on the sticker.

Not some lab similuated figure at optimum conditions that very few people would ever be able to recreate.

More consumers need to start fighting back on the reality of MPG and forcing car manufacturers to be more honest about their ratings.

A few years back they "adjusted" the MPG for all models, (downward) funny thing is my car is now rated at 20 city and I've never gotten less than 22, usually hovers around 22.6..

 

[Crono]

Instantaneous readings don't even need the 'downhill with a tailwind' part.

If it's under decel and using zero gas, it's gonna read 99 or whatever the limit is.

Also 28mpg highway for a Soul seems kinda bad. I manage better than that in my Mazda3 with a 2.0L engine. IIRC the Soul uses the Hyundai 2.0 which has about the same power output.

The reason I'm surprised I would get more is because that car has somewhat aggressive gearing. And I speed. If I can get ~30mpg at 3500+rpm on the interstate, I would think the Soul could, too. What kinda trans has that got?

If it's an auto, it sounds like they need better software. I bet it's a case of 'I refuse to downshift unless you floor it, so enjoy wasting gas by opening up the throttle at 2000rpm' syndrome.

That is pretty bad.
I average 30 highway with a 3.7L V6, and my car weighs more (3,400 lbs vs 2,800 lbs).

The pricing on the Soul isn't terrible, but with 138 hp there aren't many other redeeming qualities.
Excluding the commercials, of course.

EDIT: I was checking the Wikipedia article for more specs. Did no one update their page yet?

 

[TakeNoPrisoners]

The Soul getting 28MPG on the highway is awful. I drive a 2003 Volkswagen Passat wagon four cylinder turbo and I get that on the highway. It isn't a very small car at all.

 

[Zap]

The Soul getting 28MPG on the highway is awful. I drive a 2003 Volkswagen Passat wagon four cylinder turbo and I get that on the highway. It isn't a very small car at all.

It is, however, probably a lot more aerodynamic. I recall one review of the Kia Soul comparing aerodynamics to a bookcase.

What's the highway MPG of similar boxy 4-cyl vehicles?

Scion xB 28MPG
Nissan Cube 31MPG (with CVT)
Honda Element 25MPG (2WD version)

I think the Cube is the smallest of the bunch, and has the smallest engine excepting for the Soul's base engine. It also weighs a bit less than the Soul. It is based on a (proven?) Nissan Versa econobox platform.

Where I was going with this is that boxes tend to not have that great gas mileage.

 

[phucheneh]

Cube is a good car. Yeah, it's a Versa.

You're probably right about the aero, 'cause the Cube seems the most shapely. Or, well...actually, I thought the Soul did- front seems less flat, and I thought the roof sloped back, which should make for less turbulence at the back.

 

[power_hour]

This is exactly what pisses me off about Hyundai / Kia. Total bullshit.

And what sucks is depreciation will kill you so selling it to buy a decent fuel sipper will probably not even make sense. Hopefully you enjoy the car and it has some other attributes that make it worth driving.

 

[Soccerman06]

About time the epa does this, now they actually have to test every vehicle.