Kerry's vision for a Global Test

[Bowfinger]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Hey look, two trolls stroking each other. Go figure. Either of you care to join in the discussion about what this global test is - or are you content parroting kerry over and over again?

CsG

Time to call the waaaambulance. I won't presume to put words in Kerry's mouth, especially when he already expressed himself so clearly to anyone who is open to listening.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: Bowfinger

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: Bowfinger
OK, here's my definition of "global test":

• The President always has the right for preemptive strike in any way necessary to protect the United States of America. But if and when we do, Americans must understand fully why we're doing it and we can prove to the world that we did it for legitimate reasons.

Any other questions you'd like to ignore the answer to for the hundredth time?

Wow - you quoted kerry - good for freaking you. Can you please attempt to address the issue - or are you going to just parrot kerry? You and others parroting kerry is not answering the question.

Please detail how this global test works. How is it done? When is it done? etc. You know -the guts of it - not just the surface platitudes.

CsG

I answered your question ... again. Instead of your knee-jerk compulsion to argue, read my answer with a goal of understanding instead of diverting. To everyone but the most die-hard Bushies, it is quite simple and clear.

No, you've just repeated what kerry said over and over and refuse to think about anything but the surface platitudes. Try actually thinking about how this global test works.

Yeah, to everyone but the RBH - it's clear that you don't want to address the deeper issue regarding this global test. Stick to your platitudes and dnc yapping points - it's what you and conjur do best.

CsG

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: Bowfinger

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Hey look, two trolls stroking each other. Go figure. Either of you care to join in the discussion about what this global test is - or are you content parroting kerry over and over again?

CsG

Time to call the waaaambulance. I won't presume to put words in Kerry's mouth, especially when he already expressed himself so clearly to anyone who is open to listening.

platitudes = "expressed himself so clearly"? :roll:

Fine - don't address the issue - I didn't really expect anything less from the likes of you.

sandorski - exactly how did kerry define it? Is there anything tangible in what he said? How does one grade this test? etc.

Meh -stick to the surface if you all wish. *shrug*

CsG

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: Bowfinger

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Hey look, two trolls stroking each other. Go figure. Either of you care to join in the discussion about what this global test is - or are you content parroting kerry over and over again?

CsG

Time to call the waaaambulance. I won't presume to put words in Kerry's mouth, especially when he already expressed himself so clearly to anyone who is open to listening.

platitudes = "expressed himself so clearly"? :roll:

Fine - don't address the issue - I didn't really expect anything less from the likes of you.

sandorski - exactly how did kerry define it? Is there anything tangible in what he said? How does one grade this test? etc.

Meh -stick to the surface if you all wish. *shrug*

CsG

Whatever. :roll:

 

[SickBeast]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Meh -stick to the surface if you all wish. *shrug*

Right now all we have *is* the surface, unless you expect us all to infer what we think Kerry would do based on his platform.

Talking about the global test is really pointless at this stage.

Please don't waste our time any more. Let's talk about something more tangible.

 

[Bowfinger]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: Bowfinger

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: Bowfinger
OK, here's my definition of "global test":

• The President always has the right for preemptive strike in any way necessary to protect the United States of America. But if and when we do, Americans must understand fully why we're doing it and we can prove to the world that we did it for legitimate reasons.

Any other questions you'd like to ignore the answer to for the hundredth time?

Wow - you quoted kerry - good for freaking you. Can you please attempt to address the issue - or are you going to just parrot kerry? You and others parroting kerry is not answering the question.

Please detail how this global test works. How is it done? When is it done? etc. You know -the guts of it - not just the surface platitudes.

CsG

I answered your question ... again. Instead of your knee-jerk compulsion to argue, read my answer with a goal of understanding instead of diverting. To everyone but the most die-hard Bushies, it is quite simple and clear.

No, you've just repeated what kerry said over and over and refuse to think about anything but the surface platitudes. Try actually thinking about how this global test works.

Yeah, to everyone but the RBH - it's clear that you don't want to address the deeper issue regarding this global test. Stick to your platitudes and dnc yapping points - it's what you and conjur do best.

CsG

Give it a rest. There are no "guts of it" because it is not a formal process or rule. It is a concept, a personal standard of behavior, a commitment to act with honesty and integrity instead of deceipt and double-talk:

• The President always has the right for preemptive strike in any way necessary to protect the United States of America. But if and when we do, Americans must understand fully why we're doing it and we can prove to the world that we did it for legitimate reasons.

But you already knew this.



Edit: typo

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: SickBeast

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Meh -stick to the surface if you all wish. *shrug*

Right now all we have *is* the surface, unless you expect us all to infer what we think Kerry would do based on his platform.

Talking about the global test is really pointless at this stage.

Please don't waste our time any more. Let's talk about something more tangible.

Yeah, lets forget about discussing real concepts - lets focus on platitudes - those sure are tangible.:roll:

Bow - again, parroting kerry is not answering the question. That's fine if you don't wish to engage yourself in anything more than trite platitudes. Suit yourself...

CsG

 

[Bowfinger]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: SickBeast

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Meh -stick to the surface if you all wish. *shrug*

Right now all we have *is* the surface, unless you expect us all to infer what we think Kerry would do based on his platform.

Talking about the global test is really pointless at this stage.

Please don't waste our time any more. Let's talk about something more tangible.

Yeah, lets forget about discussing real concepts - lets focus on platitudes - those sure are tangible.:roll:

Bow - again, parroting kerry is not answering the question. That's fine if you don't wish to engage yourself in anything more than trite platitudes. Suit yourself...

CsG

Didn't think so.

 

[SickBeast]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: SickBeast

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Meh -stick to the surface if you all wish. *shrug*

Right now all we have *is* the surface, unless you expect us all to infer what we think Kerry would do based on his platform.

Talking about the global test is really pointless at this stage.

Please don't waste our time any more. Let's talk about something more tangible.

Yeah, lets forget about discussing real concepts - lets focus on platitudes - those sure are tangible.:roll:

How about you STFU with your mindless, stubborn drivel? You wouldn't know a "real concept" if it hit you in the face. Talking about "real concepts" here would mean changing the subject entirely. You would probably rather mindlessly argue this dead issue, an issue that we do not have full details on yet. It's pointless. :thumbsdown:

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: Bowfinger

Originally posted by: conjur
It's pointless, Bowfinger. You'll never get King Ambiguous to admit he's trolling.

Oh, I know. But he's so much fun to toy with, especially when he's backed hinself into a corner. We all know he never admits he is wrong about anything, but he is compelled to have the last word, so he just gets louder and less coherent. Besides, when a lie is left unanswered, some people may begin to assume it's true. there's too much disinformation out there already.

I think CsG is doing a good enough job on his own to embarrass his side of the election.

 

[Gaard]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: Gaard
CAD, I really don't care to debate this issue with you anymore as it's apparent that you and I will not see each other's view. The only reason I post now is because you made a claim about me and I respectfully ask that you to back it up.

Originally posted by: Gaard
Yeah, I'll participate. Just a sec, I'll be right back...

Been a pretty long "sec".

But yeah, it's quite apparent that we won't see eye to eye on this issue but atleast you attempted to sorta address the concept's issues.

CsG

You said "Second - Did you ever participate like you said? I don't remember if you did. However - that isn't the only place you never answered." Now kindly show where I never answered.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: Gaard

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: Gaard
CAD, I really don't care to debate this issue with you anymore as it's apparent that you and I will not see each other's view. The only reason I post now is because you made a claim about me and I respectfully ask that you to back it up.

Originally posted by: Gaard
Yeah, I'll participate. Just a sec, I'll be right back...

Been a pretty long "sec".

But yeah, it's quite apparent that we won't see eye to eye on this issue but atleast you attempted to sorta address the concept's issues.

CsG

You said "Second - Did you ever participate like you said? I don't remember if you did. However - that isn't the only place you never answered." Now kindly show where I never answered.

I can't find the second(actually I think it was before the one I quoted) one right now. However, there still is the issue of you not addressing the one I pointed out so I'd say that pretty much takes care of this: "Can you answer my questions? Unlike you CAD, I always have."

3X for the three stooges before gaard.

CsG

 

[Bowfinger]

Originally posted by: Bowfinger

Originally posted by: Jhhnn
This whole "global test" fearmonger is easily one of the most deliberate and obvious misrepresentations in the ongoing arsenal of Bush distortions. As usual, the quote is taken out of context, isolated and then reapplied to an entirely different situation.

The only significance to the whole global test thing is that we'd damned well better have good reason to act unilaterally, something that will stand the test of global opinion, not the lies and distortions employed for the invasion of Iraq.

With few exceptions, the invasion of Afghanistan stands up to such inspection, although the diversion of resources to Iraq is an ongoing travesty...

But, go ahead, embarass yourselves, twirl your skirts way up high when you're not wearing any panties...

Exactly. It's just another Bush diversion, a smoke screen to obscure his own miserable performance.

To all the Kerry supporters who have been sucked into defending against Cad & Co's definition of "global test", please STOP. It's a lie. Go back and review what Kerry said -- the whole thing -- and avoid their attempts to twist it into something else. When you let them frame it falsely, you reinforce their lie. Chop it down at the roots instead of swatting at the branches YABAs dangle in your face.

Originally posted by: Bowfinger

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
You can try to claim Vietnam all you wish, but there have been many other wars fought due to what our elected officials deem necessary at the time. Heck, the Balkans must have been necessary - right? Was Korea necessary? Ofcourse the point of all this is - it's subjective and all hindsight now. There have always been naysayers and isolationists - that doesn't mean our elected officials can't or shouldn't make decisions that they feel necessary for the US
CsG

Decisions to mislead the American Public to support an invasion based on faulty intel and lies (at least lies told to the Dub and his Administration) is never in the best interest of this country. Our involvement in Viet Nam is the closest example of this current situation and we all know how that turned out!

Ofcourse your premise assumes the intent was to mislead on both occasions. Yes, I know history will have it's revisionists and claim things were wrong - because the war was "lost" politically - but how exactly is that mislead again? Oh that's right - it's one's opinion. I don't share that opinion and this was most certainly was necessary.

conjur - WTF does the aftermath have to do with the decision? Afterwards it doesn't matter because it's already decided. Sheesh - are you really that dense? You can bleat on and on about how bad you think this war is - it doesn't change the fact that it was a decision made by our gov't in our best interest. Yes, that means Bush AND congress.
Yes, your little WMD bleat was most certainly a diversion - you can claim what you wish - but the war most certainly was not only about WMDs. Ofcourse if you pulled your head out - you'd have realized that by now. It's not my fault you didn't understand the situation.

Again, who gets to decide if things pass this "global test"? What is the criteria used? How is it applied? No one seems to be able to answer these things yet they want to claim they understand what kerry said. So again - what is behind this concept of "global test"? Answer the questions.

NeoV - No, it doesn't sound like you understand carterism. If you did - you'd see what I'm talking about.
Allies don't make decisions for us. Allies make their own decisions - just like we do. Just because we are allies - doesn't mean we always have to agree or that they have to approve of every decision we make(before OR after). Again, carterism isn't a "talking point" as I haven't heard anyone else who has thought about it enough to make the connection. And no, I'm not the one who doesn't get it I understand that this concept that kerry is yapping about is BS - but it seems those on the left want to try to hide what he says. kerry is a globalist and his record proves it. Now if you'd actually try to address the concept - we might actually get somewhere instead of having to deal with all these diversion attacks.

CsG

Your questions remain specious diversions. They have been answered multiple times by people gracious enough to try to rephrase Kerry's clear, unambiguous comments in simpler terms you might understand. You have no interest in reading or understanding those answers, of course, prefering instead to continue lying about it. We are still waiting for you to address what Kerry really said instead of your Coulteresque cartoon perversion of what you wish he said.

John Kerry, from the debate:

• Kerry answered, "The president always has the right, and always has had the right, for preemptive strike. That was a great doctrine throughout the Cold War. And it was always one of the things we argued about with respect to arms control.
  
  "No president, through all of American history, has ever ceded, and nor would I, the right to preempt in any way necessary to protect the United States of America.
  
  "But if and when you do it, Jim, you have to do it in a way that passes the test, that passes the global test where your countrymen, your people understand fully why you're doing what you're doing and you can prove to the world that you did it for legitimate reasons."

There, I made it easy for you ... again. There's the quote. Either address what he said, in context, or slink back under your bridge. The only thing worse than Bush's lies are the mindless sycophants who repeat them. And repeat them. And repeat them.

Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Give it a rest. There are no "guts of it" because it is not a formal process or rule. It is a concept, a personal standard of behavior, a commitment to act with honesty and integrity instead of deceipt and double-talk:

• The President always has the right for preemptive strike in any way necessary to protect the United States of America. But if and when we do, Americans must understand fully why we're doing it and we can prove to the world that we did it for legitimate reasons.

But you already knew this.

Still waiting for you to address what Kerry really said ... IN CONTEXT.


Edit: typo

 

[Ozoned]

"the global test where your countrymen, your people understand fully why you're doing what you're doing and you can prove to the world that you did it for legitimate reasons."

So, If my countrymen fully understand why we are doing something and they have reached an agreement with an action, but the rest of the world decides that our reason is not legitimate, does it past Kerry's global test?

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Still waiting for you to address what Kerry really said ... IN CONTEXT.

I already have. Maybe Judy Hintz(Educational Resources - I can PM you her phone number if you wish - she's supposed to be good) could help you with that, since it's obvious you have issues with reading. Now again, please try thinking about the concept(vision) at issue here Bow. I know it's hard for the likes of you but hey - gaard atleast tried.

I won't be holding my breath...

CsG

 

[BBond]

Originally posted by: Ozoned
"the global test where your countrymen, your people understand fully why you're doing what you're doing and you can prove to the world that you did it for legitimate reasons."

So, If my countrymen fully understand why we are doing something and they have reached an agreement with an action, but the rest of the world decides that our reason is not legitimate, does it past Kerry's global test?

OMG, I can't believe this is still a point of discussion.

PROVE TO THE WORLD THAT YOU DID IT FOR LEGITIMATE REASONS.

DID IT. PAST TENSE.

Your nation understands the need for action and you are secure in the knowledge that you DID it legitamately.

You refuse to recognize the obvious meaning of this clear statement. You would rather spin it into a complete misinterpretation. I can understand why you would. Bush's illegitimate, baseless, immoral attack on Iraq fails even the first portion of the statement. Because of this our credibility in the world is now zero.

 

[Bowfinger]

Originally posted by: Ozoned
"the global test where your countrymen, your people understand fully why you're doing what you're doing and you can prove to the world that you did it for legitimate reasons."

So, If my countrymen fully understand why we are doing something and they have reached an agreement with an action, but the rest of the world decides that our reason is not legitimate, does it past Kerry's global test?

Bzzzt. Red herring.

Kerry never said we require the "world" to approve our actions. He never suggests we have to get anyone else's permission. As I said before, it is not a formal process or rule. It is a concept, a personal standard of behavior, a commitment to act with honesty and integrity instead of deceipt and double-talk. I'm not sure why this simple concept seems so foreign to some Bushies.

 

[Ozoned]

Originally posted by: BBond

Originally posted by: Ozoned
"the global test where your countrymen, your people understand fully why you're doing what you're doing and you can prove to the world that you did it for legitimate reasons."

So, If my countrymen fully understand why we are doing something and they have reached an agreement with an action, but the rest of the world decides that our reason is not legitimate, does it past Kerry's global test?

OMG, I can't believe this is still a point of discussion.

PROVE TO THE WORLD THAT YOU DID IT FOR LEGITIMATE REASONS.

DID IT. PAST TENSE.

Your nation understands the need for action and you are secure in the knowledge that you DID it legitamately.

You refuse to recognize the obvious meaning of this clear statement. You would rather spin it into a complete misinterpretation. I can understand why you would. Bush's illegitimate, baseless, immoral attack on Iraq fails even the first portion of the statement. Because of this our credibility in the world is now zero.

So Kerry won't take action unless he knows beyond a shadow of doubt that we will be able to prove after the fact that we did it for legitimate reasons.? :roll:

 

[Bowfinger]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Still waiting for you to address what Kerry really said ... IN CONTEXT.

I already have. Maybe Judy Hintz(Educational Resources - I can PM you her phone number if you wish - she's supposed to be good) could help you with that, since it's obvious you have issues with reading. Now again, please try thinking about the concept(vision) at issue here Bow. I know it's hard for the likes of you but hey - gaard atleast tried.

I won't be holding my breath...

CsG

She obviously hasn't helped you.


(And no you haven't addressed what Kerry said, IN CONTEXT. "Fine - don't address the issue - I didn't really expect anything less (sic) from the likes of you." You just keep yammering about your Coultereque perversion of what you wished he said.)

 

[Bowfinger]

Originally posted by: Ozoned
So Kerry won't take action unless he knows beyond a shadow of doubt that we will be able to prove after the fact that we did it for legitimate reasons.? :roll:

Pssst. PM Cad. He has a number for someone he thinks can help with your reading impairment. (Even though she obviuosly hasn't helped Cad.)

 

[Ozoned]

Originally posted by: Bowfinger

Originally posted by: Ozoned
"the global test where your countrymen, your people understand fully why you're doing what you're doing and you can prove to the world that you did it for legitimate reasons."

So, If my countrymen fully understand why we are doing something and they have reached an agreement with an action, but the rest of the world decides that our reason is not legitimate, does it past Kerry's global test?

Bzzzt. Red herring.

Kerry never said we require the "world" to approve our actions. He never suggests we have to get anyone else's permission. As I said before, it is not a formal process or rule. It is a concept, a personal standard of behavior, a commitment to act with honesty and integrity instead of deceipt and double-talk. I'm not sure why this simple concept seems so foreign to some Bushies.

Kerry made a clear statement about pre-emption and qualified it upon two conditions. If we don't meet one, then we don,t act. That is what he said, in context.

Here are the Key words, Bow.


preempt

if

your people

and

the world .

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: Bowfinger

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Still waiting for you to address what Kerry really said ... IN CONTEXT.

I already have. Maybe Judy Hintz(Educational Resources - I can PM you her phone number if you wish - she's supposed to be good) could help you with that, since it's obvious you have issues with reading. Now again, please try thinking about the concept(vision) at issue here Bow. I know it's hard for the likes of you but hey - gaard atleast tried.

I won't be holding my breath...

CsG

She obviously hasn't helped you.


(And no you haven't addressed what Kerry said, IN CONTEXT. "Fine - don't address the issue - I didn't really expect anything less (sic) from the likes of you." You just keep yammering about your Coultereque perversion of what you wished he said.)

No she hasn't had to help me, but from the looks of it you could use her help.

I already have addressed kerry's platitude - now I'm trying to get into the concept of his little vision. It's really too bad you on the left have to resort to being his apologists instead of addressing the concept he puts forth. Now again, if (before or after) America "understands" or "agrees" but the world doesn't - does it pass this global test? What does that mean? How is it measured? etc.

As usual with you - I don't expect that you'll answer. Probably just more diversionary kerry apologisms or platitudes.

CsG

 

[Ozoned]

Originally posted by: Bowfinger

Originally posted by: Ozoned
So Kerry won't take action unless he knows beyond a shadow of doubt that we will be able to prove after the fact that we did it for legitimate reasons.? :roll:

Pssst. PM Cad. He has a number for someone he thinks can help with your reading impairment. (Even though she obviuosly hasn't helped Cad.)

Please answer the damn question.

 

[Bowfinger]

Originally posted by: Ozoned

Originally posted by: Bowfinger

Originally posted by: Ozoned
"the global test where your countrymen, your people understand fully why you're doing what you're doing and you can prove to the world that you did it for legitimate reasons."

So, If my countrymen fully understand why we are doing something and they have reached an agreement with an action, but the rest of the world decides that our reason is not legitimate, does it past Kerry's global test?

Bzzzt. Red herring.

Kerry never said we require the "world" to approve our actions. He never suggests we have to get anyone else's permission. As I said before, it is not a formal process or rule. It is a concept, a personal standard of behavior, a commitment to act with honesty and integrity instead of deceipt and double-talk. I'm not sure why this simple concept seems so foreign to some Bushies.

Kerry made a clear statement about pre-emption and qualified it upon two conditions. If we don't meet one, then we don,t act. That is what he said, in context.

Here are the Key words, Bow.


preempt

if

your people

and

the world .

Kerry never said we require the "world" to approve our actions. He never suggests we have to get anyone else's permission. As I said before, it is not a formal process or rule. It is a concept, a personal standard of behavior, a commitment to act with honesty and integrity instead of deceipt and double-talk. I'm not sure why this simple concept seems so foreign to some Bushies.

 

[Ozoned]

Does anyone want to know how Kerry will decide if an action meets his Global test? I do have the answer.