Kerry's vision for a Global Test

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Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
15,776
392
126
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Exactly. It's just another Bush diversion, a smoke screen to obscure his own miserable performance.

To all the Kerry supporters who have been sucked into defending against Cad & Co's definition of "global test", please STOP. It's a lie. Go back and review what Kerry said -- the whole thing -- and avoid their attempts to twist it into something else. When you let them frame it falsely, you reinforce their lie. Chop it down at the roots instead of swatting at the branches YABAs dangle in your face.
No, it's not a "diversion" from anything. It's a real issue. kerry brought it up and is now trying to weasel out of what he says. The problem is that he has a history of "globalist" stances and can't shake it because he keeps bringing it up. You call it a "lie" but the only "lie" seems to be coming from kerry on this issue. If he keeps trying to lie to himself - why should anyone trust him?

The issue is - why does there need to be this "global test"? Who gets to decide when it's used? Who gets to decide if the test passes/fails? What is the criteria? Who gets to decide what the criteria is?
The UN? :roll:

Anyway - keep in mind that carterism doesn't get anything done.;)

CsG
John Kerry, from the debate:
  • Kerry answered, "The president always has the right, and always has had the right, for preemptive strike. That was a great doctrine throughout the Cold War. And it was always one of the things we argued about with respect to arms control.

    "No president, through all of American history, has ever ceded, and nor would I, the right to preempt in any way necessary to protect the United States of America.

    "But if and when you do it, Jim, you have to do it in a way that passes the test, that passes the global test where your countrymen, your people understand fully why you're doing what you're doing and you can prove to the world that you did it for legitimate reasons."
There, I made it easy for you. There's the quote. Either address what he said, in context, or slink back under your bridge. The only thing worse than Bush's lies are the mindless sycophants who repeat them.

 

Siwy

Senior member
Sep 13, 2002
556
0
0
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: Siwy
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

And? Are you implying that we can't make a decision if a country might be affected?

(sounds like carterism to me;) )

CsG

Not unless your decisions are agreed upon by a country being affected or by international community ~ otherwise it becomes one big mess where countries, serving in its own interests, become bullies.

That?s not the world you want to live in, do you? ;)

I live in America. You live.... Does where you live make decisions in it's own best interest? If it doesn't - then IMO you need to get some new leadership;)

I think I was correct with my earlier assessment - definitely carterism.

CsG


The country I live in does make decisions in it's own interest, while following international law. The two are not exclusive.

Since you are misinterpreting my comments and putting labels on me, let's stick to the basics....

Not referring to the current Iraq situation, just in theory, do you believe that one country has the right to attack another country without being imminently threatened and without international approval?
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,786
6,345
126
Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Exactly. It's just another Bush diversion, a smoke screen to obscure his own miserable performance.

To all the Kerry supporters who have been sucked into defending against Cad & Co's definition of "global test", please STOP. It's a lie. Go back and review what Kerry said -- the whole thing -- and avoid their attempts to twist it into something else. When you let them frame it falsely, you reinforce their lie. Chop it down at the roots instead of swatting at the branches YABAs dangle in your face.
No, it's not a "diversion" from anything. It's a real issue. kerry brought it up and is now trying to weasel out of what he says. The problem is that he has a history of "globalist" stances and can't shake it because he keeps bringing it up. You call it a "lie" but the only "lie" seems to be coming from kerry on this issue. If he keeps trying to lie to himself - why should anyone trust him?

The issue is - why does there need to be this "global test"? Who gets to decide when it's used? Who gets to decide if the test passes/fails? What is the criteria? Who gets to decide what the criteria is?
The UN? :roll:

Anyway - keep in mind that carterism doesn't get anything done.;)

CsG
John Kerry, from the debate:
  • Kerry answered, "The president always has the right, and always has had the right, for preemptive strike. That was a great doctrine throughout the Cold War. And it was always one of the things we argued about with respect to arms control.

    "No president, through all of American history, has ever ceded, and nor would I, the right to preempt in any way necessary to protect the United States of America.

    "But if and when you do it, Jim, you have to do it in a way that passes the test, that passes the global test where your countrymen, your people understand fully why you're doing what you're doing and you can prove to the world that you did it for legitimate reasons."
There, I made it easy for you. There's the quote. Either address what he said, in context, or slink back under your bridge. The only thing worse than Bush's lies are the mindless sycophants who repeat them.

I'd just like to point out that Pre-Emption as Self-Defence is perfectly fine in International Law. As long as the Threat is real.
 

BBond

Diamond Member
Oct 3, 2004
8,363
0
0
What does 'Global' mean?

Detractors of John Kerry are making much of this passage in his Thursday debate with George W. Bush:


KERRY: The president always has the right, and always has had the right, for preemptive strike. That was a great doctrine throughout the Cold War. And it was always one of the things we argued about with respect to arms control.

No president, though all of American history, has ever ceded, and nor would I, the right to preempt in any way necessary to protect the United States of America.

But if and when you do it, Jim, you have to do it in a way that passes the test, that passes the global test where your countrymen, your people understand fully why you're doing what you're doing and you can prove to the world that you did it for legitimate reasons.

Here we have our own secretary of state who has had to apologize to the world for the presentation he made to the United Nations.

KERRY: I mean, we can remember when President Kennedy in the Cuban missile crisis sent his secretary of state to Paris to meet with DeGaulle. And in the middle of the discussion, to tell them about the missiles in Cuba, he said, "Here, let me show you the photos." And DeGaulle waved them off and said, "No, no, no, no. The word of the president of the United States is good enough for me."

How many leaders in the world today would respond to us, as a result of what we've done, in that way?



The attack ads and pundits are accusing Kerry of saying that any US military action must in his view meet a "global test" in the sense of being approved by the world community. George W. Bush has taken up this line and castigated what he calls a "Kerry doctrine" that you can't go to war without global permission. Dr. Condaleeza Rice, who rather amusingly suggested she was staying above the political fray, said on Wolf Blitzer that Kerry intended to constrain US policy by making it dependent on the concord of countries like Cuba. (The fact that Cuba and Libya are in the UN is often used by unilateralists to denigrate it, even though neither country is typically on the Security Council and only five countries have the veto, including the US).

Kerry very clearly meant no such thing. He started by saying that he would not give up the prerogative of going to war preemptively. How much clearer could he have been? Bush has invented a so-called "Kerry doctrine" out of the air. Obviously, Kerry's critics need a better dictionary. They don't know what "global" means. Let us look, for instance, at Merriam-Webster Online.


Main Entry: glob·al
Pronunciation: 'glO-b&l
Function: adjective
1 : SPHERICAL
2 : of, relating to, or involving the entire world : WORLDWIDE (global warfare) (a global system of communication); also : of or relating to a celestial body (as the moon)
3 : of, relating to, or applying to a whole (as a mathematical function or a computer program) (a global search of a file)
- glob·al·ly /'glO-b&-lE/ adverb



Kerry said, "that passes the global test where your countrymen, your people understand fully why you're doing what you're doing and you can prove to the world that you did it for legitimate reasons."

What does "global" mean in this sentence? Well, let's work down. It clearly does not mean "spherical," so that is out.

But it clearly also cannot mean "worldwide," which is what the attack ads, and Condi Rice, are implying. The "global test" Kerry speaks of relates in his mind to convincing "your countrymen" of the legitimacy of what you are doing, first and foremost. Convincing your own citizens cannot possibly be a "worldwide" matter. It is only in the last clause of the sentence where the rest of the world comes up. And there, Kerry is not suggesting that it be asked its opinion beforehand. He used the past tense. He is saying that only by first passing the global test with Americans could the US hope, after the fact, to prove to the world that what had been done was legitimate. W. from all accounts was never much good with things like tenses of verbs.

So, if "global" here does not mean "spherical" and does not mean "worldwide," then what does it mean? Kerry was obviously using the word in the third sense above, of "complete." Military action has to pass a complete test, in order to gain the entire confidence of the US public, in preparation for making a convincing case in the aftermath of the war to other countries.

Kerry is saying that Bush's reasons for going to war were flawed and incomplete, so that in some polls less than half of Americans now say it was justified. And if less than half of Americans can justify it, you can hardly expect that the Spanish should go on giving gold and lives for its sake. This unfortunate situation, Kerry is saying, is because the rationale for the war was deficient, incomplete, and less than global in the sense of thoroughgoing.

W. probably couldn't get out a word like "thoroughgoing" without tripping all over it, so Kerry did him a favor in using the shorter word "global." Unfortunately, W.'s dictionary doesn't seem to go all the way down to the third meaning of the word, which is the one Kerry used. Misunderstanding Kerry's "global" to mean "worldwide" is just as bad an error as misunderstanding it to mean "spherical." If Bush came out attacking Kerry for proposing a "round test," and insisting the test must be square, it wouldn't be less silly than what he is doing. Dr. Rice, who was provost at Stanford, knows better, but some persons with "Dr." before their name--one thinks of Faustus-- have long ago signed away their souls.

 

NeoV

Diamond Member
Apr 18, 2000
9,504
2
81
Cad, this is the worst set of posting you've ever done, and Tasteslikechicken, you too.

Can we stop mis-using the "global test" crap? Here is Kerry's EXACT quote:

"But if and when you do it, Jim, you have to do it in a way that passes the test, that passes the global test where your countrymen, your people understand fully why you're doing what you're doing and you can prove to the world that you did it for legitimate reasons"

Explain to anyone how that means "global test" in the way that the RNC talking points are portraying it? Can you tell me that you honestly think it's ok for America to go to war in a way that it's own citizens don't understand, or that you can't justify it to the rest of the world? NO PART OF THAT said that Kerry would not act in a military sense without the UN's approval.

315 - as several people have pointed out here, the entire premise of this thread is crap - and I'll quote an earlier poster in this thread that several of you have convienently ignored - "In this statement Kerry is not drawing a distinction between UN approved actions and unilateral action by the USA..he is drawing a distinction between operations that could work and operations that won't." - Again, someone please tell me why American deaths would be ok in an operation that wouldn't work? Right - they wouldn't be - and that is what Kerry was saying here.

Tastes - Bush was NEVER talked out of invading Iraq and toppling Saddam - I could link dozens of statements made my DICK CHENEY, COLIN POWELL, and many others at that time that talked about what a quagmire that would be - and some of those statements now seem amazing prophetic in their accuracy. Desert Storm was about getting Iraq out of Kuwait and making sure that Saudi Arabi wasn't threatened.

Also, there was no international outcry against us when we invaded Afghanistan. CAD, this may be the single most ignorant thing you've ever posted on this forum:

"WTF? The global test wasn't needed for Afghanistan but it is for Iraq? How exactly does that work? Why exactly would us sending troops into a sovereign country on one hand not need it yet for a different "sovereign" country it does? Because you say so? Sure, whatever you say."

Again, even in your RNC talking-point view of what the phrase "global test" meant, our military action there passed that made-up test - there weren't millions of people protesting our actions there all over the planet - and clearly, in the correct sense of the "global test", as Kerry actually stated (opposed to the RNC distortion), I'm going to go out on a limb and say that most Americans understood why we were taking military action and we had more than enough justification for the international community.

Finally, how can you say that the country as a whole didn't have a real fear of Iraq's WMD "threat"? Most people initially believed all of the horror stories that we were being told, about tubes being purchased for nuclear weapons, ties to Al-Q and 9/11, stockpiles of chem weapons, smallpox vaccines, etc, etc....They did an effective job of selling the threat - so much so that many people still believe the justifications for going to war in Iraq have been confirmed, when the opposite is true.

If you really want to look at a scary quote from either candidate in regards to the use of US Military force, here is one for you:

"Mr. President, if you had to do this all over again (in regards to the war in Iraq), would you do anything differently?"

"No - I wouldn't change a thing" - now that may not be exactly, word for word, what he said, but it's very close, and the overall meaning of what he said was exactly that.

That is a scarier quote than anything Kerry has ever said about being the commander in chief.
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Oh, the truth only gets in their way. You're wasting your time trying to reason with them.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,268
126
Well, I haven't posted a lot here recently, and I see I haven't missed much.

Kerry was referring to the specific situation in Bosnia. He was not advocating the control of US troops by the UN. Any claim to that effect is patently ridiculous, as ridiculous that Bush is a closet Nazi who secretly skins Jews in his closet.

I have followed up on this with more than isolated Rush-type sound bites. Kerry does not have the desire or authority to cede control of armed forces to the UN. It does seem that he is prepared to talk to our former allies (who Bush has nicely alienated) and get advice and perspective before he commits troops, and will coordinate with them if it seems prudent.

Simply, Bush is too single minded to listen to anyone other than those who says what he wants to hear. A dangerous quality in a President. There is a difference between resolve and stupid stubbornness (which his administration parades daily as a virtue).

Holy crap, next thing I expect to hear is that there will be both Communists and terrorists under our beds if Kerry is elected.
 
Sep 12, 2004
16,852
59
86
Originally posted by: NeoV
Cad, this is the worst set of posting you've ever done, and Tasteslikechicken, you too.
Look. I've watched the liberals hammer on every little thing Bush has spoken, or mis-spoken, by twisting, tearing, mocking, and distorting it for three+ years. Now, when the tables are turned, suddenly they whine like stuck pigs?

Give me a break. What goes around comes around. Deal with it.
 

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
15,776
392
126
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Originally posted by: NeoV
Cad, this is the worst set of posting you've ever done, and Tasteslikechicken, you too.
Look. I've watched the liberals hammer on every little thing Bush has spoken, or mis-spoken, by twisting, tearing, mocking, and distorting it for three+ years. Now, when the tables are turned, suddenly they whine like stuck pigs?

Give me a break. What goes around comes around. Deal with it.
This isn't merely distorting what Kerry said. It is a bald-faced lie. It is taking what Kerry said and flipping it 180 degrees.

I still don't understand how the same people who raised holy hell about Clinton's personal lie can flip flop and excuse every single lie Bush tells, even lies that killed thousands of innocent people and lies that hurt national security. Sorry guys, it's called blatant hypocrisy. That you aren't ashamed of yourselves -- indeed, many of you are proud of it -- speaks volumes about your character.
 

Ozoned

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2004
5,578
0
0
Originally posted by: WinstonSmith
Well, I haven't posted a lot here recently, and I see I haven't missed much.

Kerry was referring to the specific situation in Bosnia. He was not advocating the control of US troops by the UN. Any claim to that effect is patently ridiculous, as ridiculous that Bush is a closet Nazi who secretly skins Jews in his closet.

I have followed up on this with more than isolated Rush-type sound bites. Kerry does not have the desire or authority to cede control of armed forces to the UN. It does seem that he is prepared to talk to our former allies (who Bush has nicely alienated) and get advice and perspective before he commits troops, and will coordinate with them if it seems prudent.

Simply, Bush is too single minded to listen to anyone other than those who says what he wants to hear. A dangerous quality in a President. There is a difference between resolve and stupid stubbornness (which his administration parades daily as a virtue).

Holy crap, next thing I expect to hear is that there will be both Communists and terrorists under our beds if Kerry is elected.


Kerry would get a pass anyway for using unilaterally in his statement. I am having trouble recalling any true unilateral operations that we have conducted.
 

Ozoned

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2004
5,578
0
0
Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Exactly. It's just another Bush diversion, a smoke screen to obscure his own miserable performance.

To all the Kerry supporters who have been sucked into defending against Cad & Co's definition of "global test", please STOP. It's a lie. Go back and review what Kerry said -- the whole thing -- and avoid their attempts to twist it into something else. When you let them frame it falsely, you reinforce their lie. Chop it down at the roots instead of swatting at the branches YABAs dangle in your face.
No, it's not a "diversion" from anything. It's a real issue. kerry brought it up and is now trying to weasel out of what he says. The problem is that he has a history of "globalist" stances and can't shake it because he keeps bringing it up. You call it a "lie" but the only "lie" seems to be coming from kerry on this issue. If he keeps trying to lie to himself - why should anyone trust him?

The issue is - why does there need to be this "global test"? Who gets to decide when it's used? Who gets to decide if the test passes/fails? What is the criteria? Who gets to decide what the criteria is?
The UN? :roll:

Anyway - keep in mind that carterism doesn't get anything done.;)

CsG
John Kerry, from the debate:
  • Kerry answered, "The president always has the right, and always has had the right, for preemptive strike. That was a great doctrine throughout the Cold War. And it was always one of the things we argued about with respect to arms control.

    "No president, through all of American history, has ever ceded, and nor would I, the right to preempt in any way necessary to protect the United States of America.

    "But if and when you do it, Jim, you have to do it in a way that passes the test, that passes the global test where your countrymen, your people understand fully why you're doing what you're doing and you can prove to the world that you did it for legitimate reasons."
There, I made it easy for you. There's the quote. Either address what he said, in context, or slink back under your bridge. The only thing worse than Bush's lies are the mindless sycophants who repeat them.
Which part of the world gets to decide what a legitimate reason is?

:confused:
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: Siwy
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: Siwy
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

And? Are you implying that we can't make a decision if a country might be affected?

(sounds like carterism to me;) )

CsG

Not unless your decisions are agreed upon by a country being affected or by international community ~ otherwise it becomes one big mess where countries, serving in its own interests, become bullies.

That?s not the world you want to live in, do you? ;)

I live in America. You live.... Does where you live make decisions in it's own best interest? If it doesn't - then IMO you need to get some new leadership;)

I think I was correct with my earlier assessment - definitely carterism.

CsG


The country I live in does make decisions in it's own interest, while following international law. The two are not exclusive.

Since you are misinterpreting my comments and putting labels on me, let's stick to the basics....

Not referring to the current Iraq situation, just in theory, do you believe that one country has the right to attack another country without being imminently threatened and without international approval?

I never said they were mutually exclusive. But does your country not act in it's best interest over the interest of "the world" at some points?

regarding your question:
Depends on what "imminent" means and also depends on who gets to decide what "international approval" means and should come from.
Do you think our actions in the Balkins were correct by your question?

*****
NeoV-"Cad, this is the worst set of posting you've ever done, and Tasteslikechicken, you too."
I could give a sh!t less what you think of my opinion on this matter. IMO you and some of the other leftists here are one of the worst kind of carterites there are.

Now what I don't understand is why you on the left won't answer the questions. Who gets to decide when a "global test" is needed? Who gets to decide if things "pass"? What is the criteria used? And who gets to decide what the criteria is? If you all won't answer those things - please don't even think of trying to claim I'm the one doing the "worst set of posting", because you fail to ask the necessary questions to make a real judgement.

CsG
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Originally posted by: Todd33
Come on Cad, be a man. Go get the transcript, paste the whole answer and then respond with something intellegent. You are regurgitating talking points based on two words, I doubt you even know what he really said or meant.
Nor does he want to know. It might momentarily dampen his enthusiasm for spreading Bush lies.

No, I'm talking about a concept here. Some here seem to think that there can/should be some limit or criteria that has to be met in order for the US to come to a decision. Clearly those who do - haven't thought the issue through enough before trying to claim such things.

The problem is - your boy is an "internationalist" and you can't hide it so you try to obfuscate and hide his positions.

CsG
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,529
3
0
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Originally posted by: Todd33
Come on Cad, be a man. Go get the transcript, paste the whole answer and then respond with something intellegent. You are regurgitating talking points based on two words, I doubt you even know what he really said or meant.
Nor does he want to know. It might momentarily dampen his enthusiasm for spreading Bush lies.

No, I'm talking about a concept here. Some here seem to think that there can/should be some limit or criteria that has to be met in order for the US to come to a decision. Clearly those who do - haven't thought the issue through enough before trying to claim such things.

The problem is - your boy is an "internationalist" and you can't hide it so you try to obfuscate and hide his positions.

CsG

So does that make the Dub a Nationalist?
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: Ozoned
Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Exactly. It's just another Bush diversion, a smoke screen to obscure his own miserable performance.

To all the Kerry supporters who have been sucked into defending against Cad & Co's definition of "global test", please STOP. It's a lie. Go back and review what Kerry said -- the whole thing -- and avoid their attempts to twist it into something else. When you let them frame it falsely, you reinforce their lie. Chop it down at the roots instead of swatting at the branches YABAs dangle in your face.
No, it's not a "diversion" from anything. It's a real issue. kerry brought it up and is now trying to weasel out of what he says. The problem is that he has a history of "globalist" stances and can't shake it because he keeps bringing it up. You call it a "lie" but the only "lie" seems to be coming from kerry on this issue. If he keeps trying to lie to himself - why should anyone trust him?

The issue is - why does there need to be this "global test"? Who gets to decide when it's used? Who gets to decide if the test passes/fails? What is the criteria? Who gets to decide what the criteria is?
The UN? :roll:

Anyway - keep in mind that carterism doesn't get anything done.;)

CsG
John Kerry, from the debate:
  • Kerry answered, "The president always has the right, and always has had the right, for preemptive strike. That was a great doctrine throughout the Cold War. And it was always one of the things we argued about with respect to arms control.

    "No president, through all of American history, has ever ceded, and nor would I, the right to preempt in any way necessary to protect the United States of America.

    "But if and when you do it, Jim, you have to do it in a way that passes the test, that passes the global test where your countrymen, your people understand fully why you're doing what you're doing and you can prove to the world that you did it for legitimate reasons."
There, I made it easy for you. There's the quote. Either address what he said, in context, or slink back under your bridge. The only thing worse than Bush's lies are the mindless sycophants who repeat them.
Which part of the world gets to decide what a legitamate reason is?

:confused:

They won't answer because they are caught in a situation that would show their hand. My guess is they are holding the carter card. I've asked how many times in this thread? And no one will address them as they only try to attack the person asking or Bush as a diversion from the issue.

CsG
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Originally posted by: Todd33
Come on Cad, be a man. Go get the transcript, paste the whole answer and then respond with something intellegent. You are regurgitating talking points based on two words, I doubt you even know what he really said or meant.
Nor does he want to know. It might momentarily dampen his enthusiasm for spreading Bush lies.

No, I'm talking about a concept here. Some here seem to think that there can/should be some limit or criteria that has to be met in order for the US to come to a decision. Clearly those who do - haven't thought the issue through enough before trying to claim such things.

The problem is - your boy is an "internationalist" and you can't hide it so you try to obfuscate and hide his positions.

CsG

So does that make the Dub a Nationalist?

If acting in the best interests of America is a "Nationalist" - then yes.:)

CsG
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,529
3
0
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Originally posted by: Todd33
Come on Cad, be a man. Go get the transcript, paste the whole answer and then respond with something intellegent. You are regurgitating talking points based on two words, I doubt you even know what he really said or meant.
Nor does he want to know. It might momentarily dampen his enthusiasm for spreading Bush lies.

No, I'm talking about a concept here. Some here seem to think that there can/should be some limit or criteria that has to be met in order for the US to come to a decision. Clearly those who do - haven't thought the issue through enough before trying to claim such things.

The problem is - your boy is an "internationalist" and you can't hide it so you try to obfuscate and hide his positions.

CsG

So does that make the Dub a Nationalist?

If acting in the best interests of America is a "Nationalist" - then yes.:)

CsG
As it turns out, getting us involved in his ill advised excellent adventure in Iraq wasn't in our best interest. I guess that make him a "Unilateralist"
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: Infohawk
Csg, have you convinced anyone that Kerry wants to outsource our security yet?

Huh? "outsource our security"? WTF are you yapping about?
Try sticking to the issue here info, and answer the questions. Who gets to decide what is best for America if not America and America alone? Then try to answer the other questions I asked.:)

CsG
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Originally posted by: Todd33
Come on Cad, be a man. Go get the transcript, paste the whole answer and then respond with something intellegent. You are regurgitating talking points based on two words, I doubt you even know what he really said or meant.
Nor does he want to know. It might momentarily dampen his enthusiasm for spreading Bush lies.

No, I'm talking about a concept here. Some here seem to think that there can/should be some limit or criteria that has to be met in order for the US to come to a decision. Clearly those who do - haven't thought the issue through enough before trying to claim such things.

The problem is - your boy is an "internationalist" and you can't hide it so you try to obfuscate and hide his positions.

CsG

So does that make the Dub a Nationalist?

If acting in the best interests of America is a "Nationalist" - then yes.:)

CsG
As it turns out, getting us involved in his ill advised excellent adventure in Iraq wasn't in our best interest. I guess that make him a "Unilateralist"

No, actually it doesn't. This so-called "excellent adventure in Iraq" was in our best interest but it most certainly wasn't "Unilateral".

CsG
 

Infohawk

Lifer
Jan 12, 2002
17,844
1
0
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: Infohawk
Csg, have you convinced anyone that Kerry wants to outsource our security yet?

Huh? "outsource our security"? WTF are you yapping about?
Try sticking to the issue here info, and answer the questions. Who gets to decide what is best for America if not America and America alone? Then try to answer the other questions I asked.:)

CsG

Who gets to decide what's best for America? Americans -- within the Constitution, laws and other limits they've placed on themselves (like the UN charter).
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,529
3
0
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Originally posted by: Todd33
Come on Cad, be a man. Go get the transcript, paste the whole answer and then respond with something intellegent. You are regurgitating talking points based on two words, I doubt you even know what he really said or meant.
Nor does he want to know. It might momentarily dampen his enthusiasm for spreading Bush lies.

No, I'm talking about a concept here. Some here seem to think that there can/should be some limit or criteria that has to be met in order for the US to come to a decision. Clearly those who do - haven't thought the issue through enough before trying to claim such things.

The problem is - your boy is an "internationalist" and you can't hide it so you try to obfuscate and hide his positions.

CsG

So does that make the Dub a Nationalist?

If acting in the best interests of America is a "Nationalist" - then yes.:)

CsG
As it turns out, getting us involved in his ill advised excellent adventure in Iraq wasn't in our best interest. I guess that make him a "Unilateralist"

No, actually it doesn't. This so-called "excellent adventure in Iraq" was in our best interest but it most certainly wasn't "Unilateral".

CsG
Well it sure doesn't look like it was in our best interest. I also concede that it wasn't unilateral, we had to pay good money or promise the moon to get others to join us and by god we did thanks to the Dub.

 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: Infohawk
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: Infohawk
Csg, have you convinced anyone that Kerry wants to outsource our security yet?

Huh? "outsource our security"? WTF are you yapping about?
Try sticking to the issue here info, and answer the questions. Who gets to decide what is best for America if not America and America alone? Then try to answer the other questions I asked.:)

CsG

Who gets to decide what's best for America? Americans -- within the Constitution, laws and other limits they've placed on themselves (like the UN charter).

And we did decide within those parameters. The UN's input(or lack there of) was noted, Congress approved legislation allowing for the action - thus is was done....or do you think that the UN should have been able to trump the decision of our Elected officials?

CsG
 

Infohawk

Lifer
Jan 12, 2002
17,844
1
0
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: Infohawk
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: Infohawk
Csg, have you convinced anyone that Kerry wants to outsource our security yet?

Huh? "outsource our security"? WTF are you yapping about?
Try sticking to the issue here info, and answer the questions. Who gets to decide what is best for America if not America and America alone? Then try to answer the other questions I asked.:)

CsG

Who gets to decide what's best for America? Americans -- within the Constitution, laws and other limits they've placed on themselves (like the UN charter).

And we did decide within those parameters. The UN's input(or lack there of) was noted, Congress approved legislation allowing for the action - thus is was done....or do you think that the UN should have been able to trump the decision of our Elected officials?

CsG

No, the UN charter requires approval for wars that don't fall in the basic legit war categories. There was no approval. PS: What does this have to do with Kerry's vision? I just came in here to ask if you had changed any minds.