Kerry Flip Flops with new Ad - Calls Bush Liar 10-3-04

[Smilin]

Originally posted by: CycloWizard
Yeah, I accidentally left out the part about requiring the 2/3 majority for all military actions exceeding 30 days.

I guess what I'm saying is that the Congress should be more involved in the process. They shouldn't just say at arbitrary point A "Here's your money, have fun" then turn the president loose on a shopping spree at some arbitrary point B in the future. There needs to be a greater possibility for checks and balances, I guess, though I can't necessarily tell you what it should be. Placing the sole responsibility on one man can have disastrous consequences, regardless of how honest and good-willed he might be. This is borne out by Iraq, and demonstrates to me that the current system needs reworking. If nothing else, Congress needs to include in the funding proposal explicit stipulations as to what exactly is required before action may be taken (e.g. Bush must get a vote on a new resolution from the UN or something).

I think you are right. The thing is that as soon as questions were raised and congress started seeing things they didn't like the president expedited the process. He used the "Letter of the law" rather than the spirit of it to justify his final decision. The spirit of the Iraq resolution was to "work with the U.N. and exhaust every possible diplomatic solution." He didn't do that. He said, "Hey, you *technically* told me I could go so I did." It's in some respects similar to the way Clinton lied without committing perjury when he said "Sexual Relations." Both are dispicable things for someone who represents me to do. I don't care if you are *technically* right. I am your final judge on election day.

 

[Smilin]

Originally posted by: gutharius
THis is the ad in question:
Ad
Personally I see this as a clarification of what Kerry said in light of Bush's attempts to spin his miserable performance at the first debate.

Edit: And yes, from what I have heard bush is a liar. Sorry, but you can't blame Kerry for speaking the truth.

Despite my support for Kerry and the fact that I know Bush is a liar I have no illusions about the honesty of any of our representatives.

The part that burns me up though is when Bush does that "hyuk hyuk" face and sideways grin and then proceedes to tell me a lie as if I'm so stupid that I didn't take it for granted to begin with.

 

[Smilin]

Originally posted by: Genx87
If Bush's campaign was smart he would use Kerrys response about Iran where he said he would give the Iranian nuclear material as a litmus test. Since when is giving a nation hell bent on developing nuke weapons the material they need a good litmus test?????

I'm surprised the Bush camp hasn't latched onto that yet. When taken as an out of context quote the average idiot voter would swallow it up without reading the details and cleverness of the idea.

Man, I hope I'm reading you right... you've read into the details I'm assuming. Otherwise I just called you an idiot. (that would be my bad)

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: FelixDeKat

Originally posted by: tec699
I'd rather have a flip floper then a crook. I could be receiving free health care right now but yet were pissing millions in a war that should have been avoided.

You want free healthcare? :laugh:

Get your lazy ass a job.

But but but...didn't the Constitution say "free health care" was a right?

CsG

But it's OK that only the Rich Elitites can afford it???

 

[Czar]

Would just like to thank Smilin and CycloWizard for actualy having a real discussion on this forum keep it up, excelent read

 

[CaptnKirk]

You liberals need to stop looking for free handouts and get out there and learn to make some money.

Does this apply to the Corporate Welfare Whores like Halliburton and those companies
that bankrolled Bush, only to have him award them with huge 'No-Bid' contracts ?

 

[TheGameIs21]

Originally posted by: tec699
I'd rather have a flip floper then a crook. I could be receiving free health care right now but yet were pissing millions in a war that should have been avoided.

Since you were the first to go off topic... Give me the proof of GWB being a "crook" as you have stated above.

 

[chess9]

You know, looking at factcheck.org as posted by cyclowizard I'd say neither of these guys prepared very well. Conjur could have taken both sides of the debate and made significantly more and better arguments than either of those yo-yos.

Many college debaters memorize many more data points than the two of them needed to know for that debate. I'll bet a lot of ex-debaters were moaning over those performances.

I'm not impressed with either of them, but Bush impresses me far less than Kerry.

Actually, Bush DEPRESSES me.

-Robert

 

[chess9]

Yeah, Capt. stick your hand back in your pocket you commie. Sheezh, I'll bet yer' suckin' the system dry....

I have never even gotten food stamps and I might have qualified when I was in college. All I've ever done is pay taxes and work my assky off my whole life. But, somehow I've managed to avoid becoming a right wing nutcase. Maybe it's all that running I do....

-Robert

 

[lordtyranus]

But it's OK that only the Rich Elitites can afford it???

Why not? It's OK that I can't afford a Mercedes Benz.

 

[CycloWizard]

Originally posted by: gutharius
Well lets see, based on factsheck.org, in the last 2 weeks they have cited 4 Bush ads with blatent lies or misrepresentation and just one from kerry. Hmmm. I think a 4-1 ration is fairly good, expecially given the fact we are dealing with politicians here, and kerry is 20 year vet. So it looks like to me Kerry is a more honest fellow than Bush is. But I already knew that! Maybe some neocons on this forum will realize they are being lied to by a hypocrite president who says one thing then turns his back and does another.

Oh, so a lie only remains a lie for two weeks and one lie is ok, as long as it's less than your opponent's lie quota? If these are honestly your criteria for determining who's 'more honest', then you might want to rethink that. :roll:

 

[Jhhnn]

The most amazing thing about the Bush ads and position is that he represents the invasion of Iraq as "protecting America", when it's been shown, time and again, that such wasn't the case, at all. not one of the justifications for invasion has stood the test of time.

Nor are the usual flip-flop allegations against Kerry valid in this instance. Analyze the statement-

"I've never, ever used the harshest word, as you did just then," Kerry said. "And I try not to, but I'll nevertheless tell you that I think he has not been candid with the American people."

Did he make any promises? Did he he say that he definitely wouldn't call a liar a liar? Not exactly... which is the beauty of a real politician.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: lordtyranus

But it's OK that only the Rich Elitites can afford it???

Why not? It's OK that I can't afford a Mercedes Benz.

That's the inside of the thinking of the Elitist Radical Religious Nutjob Neocon Right, that the health of human beings equates to the same as a Luxury Car, absolutely fuggin nuts.

 

[Doboji]

This is such crap.... Kerry never said that no action should be taken without approval... he said it's our responsibility as Americans to take actions with global responsibility... I.E. keep in mind the rest of the world... if necessary of course he could act preemptively without world approval... but we should be responsible enough to try and make our case bulletproof to the world... LIKE KENNEDY WITH THE CUBAN MISSLE CRISIS... sheesh... such drivel the Bush campaign is putting out.

-Max

 

[CycloWizard]

Originally posted by: Jhhnn
Did he make any promises? Did he he say that he definitely wouldn't call a liar a liar? Not exactly... which is the beauty of a real politician.

Yes, the beauty of a politician is that he can sling out half-truths and vague statements without ever being held accountable for them or providing substance on positions. :roll:

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: CycloWizard
Yes, the beauty of a politician is that he can sling out half-truths and vague statements without ever being held accountable for them or providing substance on positions.

Which Bush is a Master of, have to give him that.

He learned well from Rove, Rush and Hannity.

 

[Doboji]

Originally posted by: CycloWizard

Originally posted by: Jhhnn
Did he make any promises? Did he he say that he definitely wouldn't call a liar a liar? Not exactly... which is the beauty of a real politician.

Yes, the beauty of a politician is that he can sling out half-truths and vague statements without ever being held accountable for them or providing substance on positions. :roll:

Oh come come now... you really can't be this stupid can you? How on earth could Kerry promise to not call Bush a liar?... Bush can lie anytime in the future and that would instantly qualify him to be called a liar.

Furthermore.. Kerry NEVER said he wouldn't call Bush a liar... he simply said he hadn't called bush a liar YET... that doesnt mean a thing... you guys are grasping at straws here.

-Max

 

[CycloWizard]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: CycloWizard
Yes, the beauty of a politician is that he can sling out half-truths and vague statements without ever being held accountable for them or providing substance on positions.

Which Bush is a Master of, have to give him that.

He learned well from Rove, Rush and Hannity.

Who did Kerry learn it from? Or did he teach himself? Or am I the only person here that can admit that BOTH parties do it?

Originally posted by: Doboji

Originally posted by: CycloWizard

Originally posted by: Jhhnn
Did he make any promises? Did he he say that he definitely wouldn't call a liar a liar? Not exactly... which is the beauty of a real politician.

Yes, the beauty of a politician is that he can sling out half-truths and vague statements without ever being held accountable for them or providing substance on positions. :roll:

Oh come come now... you really can't be this stupid can you? How on earth could Kerry promise to not call Bush a liar?... Bush can lie anytime in the future and that would instantly qualify him to be called a liar.

Furthermore.. Kerry NEVER said he wouldn't call Bush a liar... he simply said he hadn't called bush a liar YET... that doesnt mean a thing... you guys are grasping at straws here.

-Max

See above.

 

[Doboji]

Originally posted by: CycloWizard

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: CycloWizard
Yes, the beauty of a politician is that he can sling out half-truths and vague statements without ever being held accountable for them or providing substance on positions.

Which Bush is a Master of, have to give him that.

He learned well from Rove, Rush and Hannity.

Who did Kerry learn it from? Or did he teach himself? Or am I the only person here that can admit that BOTH parties do it?

Originally posted by: Doboji

Originally posted by: CycloWizard

Originally posted by: Jhhnn
Did he make any promises? Did he he say that he definitely wouldn't call a liar a liar? Not exactly... which is the beauty of a real politician.

Yes, the beauty of a politician is that he can sling out half-truths and vague statements without ever being held accountable for them or providing substance on positions. :roll:

Oh come come now... you really can't be this stupid can you? How on earth could Kerry promise to not call Bush a liar?... Bush can lie anytime in the future and that would instantly qualify him to be called a liar.

Furthermore.. Kerry NEVER said he wouldn't call Bush a liar... he simply said he hadn't called bush a liar YET... that doesnt mean a thing... you guys are grasping at straws here.

-Max

See above.

Agreed... they're both dumbasses.... but as long as I continue to believe that Kerry will stay the course in Iraq, and as long as Bush remains pro-life.... I will be voting for Kerry.

-Max

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: FelixDeKat

Originally posted by: tec699
I'd rather have a flip floper then a crook. I could be receiving free health care right now but yet were pissing millions in a war that should have been avoided.

You want free healthcare? :laugh:

Get your lazy ass a job.

In case your too "lazy" to check it out, there are one helluvalot of Americans who are working full time and don't have any health care benifits. Like a true NeoCon you only care about what is best for yourself and not your country. People like you would work the lower classes into an early grave and laugh about it the whole time. This just another reason to vote Kerry, at least the Dem's want to try and fix the system instead of sittin on their "lazy" asses whining about people who would try to make healthcare affordable to all.

Originally posted by: Smilin

Healthcare costs are rising at 4x the rate of incomes. I guess our lazy asses will need to get four jobs before too long. I doubt we would all have free healthcare but I could certainly think of other things I would rather spend 120 (soon to be 200 and counting) Billion dollars on. How 'bout chuck it into the FBI/CIA budget to fight terroists for instace. Think 120 Billion bucks would bust a terror cell or two? Nah, "America is safer" if we don't.

:thumbsup:

 

[CycloWizard]

Originally posted by: Doboji
Agreed... they're both dumbasses.... but as long as I continue to believe that Kerry will stay the course in Iraq, and as long as Bush remains pro-life.... I will be voting for Kerry.

-Max

So why are you posting in this thread?

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
In case your too "lazy" to check it out, there are one helluvalot of Americans who are working full time and don't have any health care benifits. Like a true NeoCon you only care about what is best for yourself and not your country. People like you would work the lower classes into an early grave and laugh about it the whole time. This just another reason to vote Kerry, at least the Dem's want to try and fix the system instead of sittin on their "lazy" asses whining about people who would try to make healthcare affordable to all.

Here is the underlying problem: you automatically assume that since private companies aren't giving healthcare, the government should give it to EVERYONE. This is ridiculous. If people aren't getting healthcare, then they need to make some demands of their employer. Socialized medicine doesn't even work in Canada where they have a MUCH smaller population. The last thing we need is another Social Security whale killing our entire budget, yet this is exactly what this would turn into. I agree that there is a problem, but Kerry's plan is not the correct solution. It would be great if people could do SOMETHING for themselves rather than relying on the government for handouts. This is the way it's been done since the country was founded... How do you think all of us that do have healthcare got it? I'm a student and I HAVE to pay for healthcare as part of an agreement to have my schooling paid for, so it's not like I'm just some crazy neocon hating on everyone who might get free healthcare. I would benefit too.

 

[Jhhnn]

Speaking of substance, CycloWizard, which seems to be the new Republican "word of he week"- what substance was there, or is there today, that the invasion of Iraq was somehow "protecting America"?

Where are those massive stockpiles of CBW agents, that nuclear program, those transatlantic drones, those "links" to al qaeda? What happened to "We know where they are" and "We found them"? When did anybody with half a brain begin to accept the idea that those statements are the same as the "woulda, coulda, I just know it, 'cause he's just plain evil" that we're hearing today?

History leaves us with a choice as to how we evaluate the Bush Presidency, and the invasion of Iraq. Either he's delusional, or a liar, take your pick. Neither one is cause for re-election.

 

[Smilin]

Originally posted by: chess9
You know, looking at factcheck.org as posted by cyclowizard I'd say neither of these guys prepared very well. Conjur could have taken both sides of the debate and made significantly more and better arguments than either of those yo-yos.

Many college debaters memorize many more data points than the two of them needed to know for that debate. I'll bet a lot of ex-debaters were moaning over those performances.

I'm not impressed with either of them, but Bush impresses me far less than Kerry.

Actually, Bush DEPRESSES me.

-Robert

I'm going to be voting for Kerry for many reasons including some I've listed in this thread. I also think he won the debate. In no way does winning a debate make me think he's a better candidate though. Bush is a rotten public speaker and he's clearly not quick on his feet. Does that mean he's incompetent? Of course not. His decisions will be made with the notes in front of him, advisors at his side and time on his hands. Kerry will do the same.

However...

No they weren't very well prepared at all it seemed. I was wanting to yell out answers for them while I was watching my TV. The spin that has happened afterwards makes it hard to follow what they even said. Honestly if you want to make an intelligent decision before you vote here is what you should do: Take everything that you have heard from both campains and completely dismiss it as a lie. They may speak truth from time to time but really it will just be easier to throw out the baby with the bathwater. Ignore everything they say. Both of them.

An examples: Bush was against body armor for our troops. No, Kerry voted against it and it makes him a flip-flopper. Bullcrap. There were two bills for financing the war. Both included body armor. Due to differences that had nothing to do with body armor each candidate voted against (or threatened to veto) the other.

I saw a story over at the drudge report yesterday. It was insinuating that Kerry snuck a cheat sheet into the debate. Now how can you accuse a guy of getting his facts wrong AND using a cheat sheet? *sigh* This has been one of the nastiest elections I've ever seen. It's far from over. This is an important one too so I wish it was going to be decided by facts instead of marketing.

If you find yourself using the term flip-flopper (I have) then you have been the victim of a marketing strategy. Back when we had clear minds that we could think with we would have used terms like indecisive or changes direction. The actual term "flip flop" was coined by the Bush reelection campaign (not to be confused with Bush or republicans as a whole). It's marketing. They (both campaigns) run ads 24/7 that don't break the truth but bend it badly. The truth "becomes" what you hear, not what is. If you are lucky you'll hear the opposing ad, see the contridiction and go look up the truth yourself. Your only defense besides this "luck" is to recognize when it's happening or just to dismiss it all regardless of the truth.

 

[Smilin]

Originally posted by: Czar
Would just like to thank Smilin and CycloWizard for actualy having a real discussion on this forum keep it up, excelent read

I've enjoyed it myself. It's been a pleasure having someone pose serious questions to me that make me think hard on (or possibly reconsider) my position. It's a refreshing change from the personal attacks, topic changes, or cries of <candidtate A> is an idiot. It's a natural response to be emotional when someone disagrees with you. It just doesn't accomplish anything.

 

[Smilin]

Just read:
http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOL...erry.global/index.html

Both Condaleza Rice...
I heard Senator Kerry say that there was some kind of 'global test' that you ought to be able to pass to support preemption, and I don't understand what that means," Rice told CNN's "Late Edition with Wolf Blitzer.

And George Bush...
I'm not exactly sure what you mean, 'passes the global test,' [that] you take preemptive action if you pass a global test," he said during the debate.


Indicate that they do not understand. I know. I know that they don't get it. That's exactly why we're in the mess we're in and exactly why I'm not voting for Bush.