Kerry Denounces New Ad on Bush's Service in Guard

[Todd33]

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Kerry Denounces New Ad on Bush's Service in Guard
By JIM RUTENBERG

Published: August 18, 2004

Senator John Kerry denounced an advertisement by the liberal group MoveOn.org questioning President Bush's Vietnam-era service in the Air National Guard yesterday, a move likely to raise pressure on President Bush to condemn a recent commercial accusing Mr. Kerry of lying about his war record.

The new MoveOn advertisement, running in three states, accuses Mr. Bush of using family connections to get into the Air National Guard to escape combat in Vietnam and revisits accusations that he did not adequately meet his service requirements - charges that he denies.

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Mr. Kerry's statement came hours after surrogates for his presidential campaign made similar accusations and was prompted by a plea from Senator John McCain, Republican of Arizona, a friend of Mr. Kerry and a fellow combat veteran in Vietnam.

Earlier this month, Mr. McCain similarly called on Mr. Bush to denounce the advertisement criticizing Mr. Kerry, by a group called Swift Boat Veterans for Truth. That spot, in which fellow Vietnam War veterans said Mr. Kerry lied about the incidents for which he won his combat medals, stopped running last week but the group says it plans to run another one soon.

The Bush campaign has declined to denounce the Swift boat advertisement, saying it had nothing to do with the spot.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/18/politics/campaign/18ads.html

I saw the ad, it was in poor taste. The second half was fine, but the first half was unnecessary. Good for Kerry, at least he has a backbone.

 

[bozack]

Originally posted by: Todd33
I saw the ad, it was in poor taste. The second half was fine, but the first half was unnecessary. Good for Kerry, at least he has a backbone.

Yup, his people put it out, let it run long enough to make their point and then he gets to look like a bigger man by denouncing it...

 

[jdbolick]

Backbone? Please, this was straight-up political strategy. After all the things both sides have said, do you really mean to tell me that either one of them would be "offended" by an unreasonable attack on the other? Come on. Didn't you see this very tactic on the West Wing? It's old political hat, you have one of your flunkies hit the opponent well below the belt and then denounce the attack. Not only does it give you ability to claim the moral high ground, but it at least doubles the amount of exposure the attack got in the first place. Now not only did MoveOn's ad reach people, but Kerry commenting on it caused more people to get MoveOn's message.

Maybe I'm overly cynical, but I think both candidates would post lists of the other's mother's sexual partners if they could.


Edit:
Plus, I'm royally pissed about how MoveOn and the DNC are getting around campaign finance laws by putting out their own ads, as if they really don't have any coordination with the candidate. At the very least it shouldn't be showing John Kerry, mentioning him, or linking to his website. I wish McCain could ring some more necks and get that loophole closed.

 

[cpumaster]

Originally posted by: bozack

Yup, his people put it out, let it run long enough to make their point and then he gets to look like a bigger man by denouncing it...

At least he is denouncing it. I don't think Bush is doing anything on the ad that attack Kerry. He (Bush) has a chance to be the bigger man, and he choose to pass on it...

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: bozack

Originally posted by: Todd33
I saw the ad, it was in poor taste. The second half was fine, but the first half was unnecessary. Good for Kerry, at least he has a backbone.

Yup, his people put it out, let it run long enough to make their point and then he gets to look like a bigger man by denouncing it...

You'd like that to be true. However you know it isn't.

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: bozack

Originally posted by: Todd33
I saw the ad, it was in poor taste. The second half was fine, but the first half was unnecessary. Good for Kerry, at least he has a backbone.

Yup, his people put it out, let it run long enough to make their point and then he gets to look like a bigger man by denouncing it...

I see your tinfoil hat is still snugly atop your head.

 

[jdbolick]

Originally posted by: cpumaster
At least he is denouncing it. I don't think Bush is doing anything on the ad that attack Kerry. He (Bush) has a chance to be the bigger man, and he choose to pass on it...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but there's nothing morally wrong with attacking someone as long as it's accurate. I've never really understood objections to the Swift Boats. Sure they make Kerry look bad, but other than that, what's the problem? One group of veterans is believable because they love Kerry while another group is "obviously" lying because they don't think he's fit to serve? I don't buy it, and I don't see how Bush had any reason to denounce those ads. I'm actually disappointed that McCain criticized them, and I'm a huge fan of McCain's (not a fan of Bush's, although I am Repub).

 

[Todd33]

Moveon has nothing to do with the DNC or Kerry campaign. If you have some proof otherwise make it known, otherwise you are just making up crap like Hannity and Rush.

 

[BDawg]

Originally posted by: bozack

Originally posted by: Todd33
I saw the ad, it was in poor taste. The second half was fine, but the first half was unnecessary. Good for Kerry, at least he has a backbone.

Yup, his people put it out, let it run long enough to make their point and then he gets to look like a bigger man by denouncing it...

Believe what you wish. Fact is Bush had the chance to do the same thing first and look like a bigger man, yet he declined.

 

[kage69]

Yup, his people put it out, let it run long enough to make their point and then he gets to look like a bigger man by denouncing it...

If a morbidly obese woman becoming grafted to the fabric of her couch can make news, I wonder if we can get a headline about the tinfoil on your head grafting to your scalp. Hrmmmmmm....

 

[kage69]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but there's nothing morally wrong with attacking someone as long as it's accurate. I've never really understood objections to the Swift Boats. Sure they make Kerry look bad, but other than that, what's the problem? One group of veterans is believable because they love Kerry while another group is "obviously" lying because they don't think he's fit to serve? I don't buy it, and I don't see how Bush had any reason to denounce those ads. I'm actually disappointed that McCain criticized them, and I'm a huge fan of McCain's (not a fan of Bush's, although I am Repub).

Sure, here's a correction! The Swift Boat vets have only made themselves look bad, by being liars and 2-bit political hacks. McCain knows this. You could take his lead, or better yet, research the topic a little better before trying to opine on it. (I'm a McCain fan too btw...)

 

[Todd33]

Factcheck.org has pretty much owned the swiftboat ad, they are now waiting for the book, which has to be more "30 years ago, I saw Kerry shoot himself in tha a$$ from 100 yards away in the dark!"

They should just rename their group" "Vets who never served with Kerry who are angry at his Senate testomony"

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

Originally posted by: bozack

Originally posted by: Todd33
I saw the ad, it was in poor taste. The second half was fine, but the first half was unnecessary. Good for Kerry, at least he has a backbone.

Yup, his people put it out, let it run long enough to make their point and then he gets to look like a bigger man by denouncing it...

I wouldn't say moveon.org are "his people," certainly no more than the assholes who used "push-polling" in 2000 to promote the idea among SC voters that John McCain had an illegitimate black child were "Bush's people."

I must admit, if I were in Kerry's place, I'd be publicly dismissive, and privately grateful for these ads. That said, I think he did the right thing by denouncing them, and IMO the White House should have done so with the "Swift Boat Veterans for Truth".

 

[jdbolick]

Originally posted by: Todd33
Moveon has nothing to do with the DNC or Kerry campaign. If you have some proof otherwise make it known, otherwise you are just making up crap like Hannity and Rush.

Oh come on. I'm not saying that MoveOn checks with Kerry or his people before doing anything, but clearly they're cooperating very closely to achieve the same goal. Your position is like saying that the British troops in Iraq have nothing to do with the American troops just because they work separately. They're around for the same reason and are working to accomplish the same goal.

Originally posted by: kage69
[Sure, here's a correction! The Swift Boat vets have only made themselves look bad, by being liars and 2-bit political hacks. McCain knows this. You could take his lead, or better yet, research the topic a little better before trying to opine on it. (I'm a McCain fan too btw...)

Actually McCain has never questioned the factual accuracy of the claims, at least to my knowledge, he's only said that it's in poor taste to use Vietnam service against him. I find that a bit odd given that Kerry himself has made his service a primary issue. And you really might want to concern yourself with the facts before taking me to task.

#1) The Swift Boat vets include all Kerry's commanders on the boats he served with before he got his own command.

#2) Those same commanders saw his first two Purple Heart wounds and insist that they did not recommend him for those awards (which is supposed to be required for him to even be considered).

#3) Kerry himself said in the recent Boston Globe book that his Silver Star came from shooting a naked, fleeing Viet Cong who may have been unarmed. Check it out for youself, it's a direct quote in an ostensibly pro-Kerry source.

#4) The Kerry campaign has already been forced to admit that Kerry lied about being in Cambodia during Christmas since even the people who served with Kerry and support his campaign universally agree that they were nowhere near the Cambodian border even though Kerry claimed this "experience" was "seared into (his) memory."

 

[cpumaster]

Originally posted by: jdbolick
Correct me if I'm wrong, but there's nothing morally wrong with attacking someone as long as it's accurate. I've never really understood objections to the Swift Boats. Sure they make Kerry look bad, but other than that, what's the problem? One group of veterans is believable because they love Kerry while another group is "obviously" lying because they don't think he's fit to serve? I don't buy it, and I don't see how Bush had any reason to denounce those ads. I'm actually disappointed that McCain criticized them, and I'm a huge fan of McCain's (not a fan of Bush's, although I am Repub).

Nothing morally wrong with attacking someone as far as it's accurate, sure, but if you want to use moral to justify it, it better be a pretty high standard and any attack you done should be absolutely based on truth & indisputable fact. Yet the facts that the Swiftboatvet putting out are flimsy at best and borderline lies at worst. Plus that it was sponsored by a big Bush's backer kinda evaporate any claim it has as independent operated political org. You probably can find out more at http://www.factcheck.org about background and the truth behind many of the claims against Kerry put out by the vet on Swiftboatvet

BTW, do you think McCain would come out against the swiftboat ads before he or his staff even check out many of the claims they made? Risking his reputation in the process? Come on, you should know better, you like him for a reason right? Don't let your anti-Kerry feeling clouded your judgement on McCain simply you want to desperately believe any negative ads against Kerry...

 

[Todd33]

but clearly they're cooperating very closely to achieve the same goal

So one is an anti-Bush org that's been around before the primaries and one is running against Bush. Therefore they are what, sharing tips and secrets? Bush doesn't like gay marriage, either does the KKK, so.... ?

 

[jdbolick]

Originally posted by: Todd33
So one is an anti-Bush org that's been around before the primaries and one is running against Bush. Therefore they are what, sharing tips and secrets? Bush doesn't like gay marriage, either does the KKK, so.... ?

Dude, the problem with credibility is that you have to be reasonable in order to have some. Suggesting that MoveOn and the DNC aren't cooperating with the Kerry campaign is blatant lunacy. They link to Kerry websites, they feature Kerry's image, they talk about needing a change in leadership. What do you need in order to see the obvious? A curtain pulled back? Come on. Saying stuff like that just undermines any legitimate points you want to make. It's blindingly obvious that they're working together, albeit within the loophole rules, but I'm just of the opinion that it's violating the spirit if not the letter of the law, and that someone should be making sure that loophole is closed.

 

[OneOfTheseDays]

working together? I don't think so. On the same page, yes.

There is a difference.

 

[Todd33]

Originally posted by: jdbolick

Originally posted by: Todd33
So one is an anti-Bush org that's been around before the primaries and one is running against Bush. Therefore they are what, sharing tips and secrets? Bush doesn't like gay marriage, either does the KKK, so.... ?

Dude, the problem with credibility is that you have to be reasonable in order to have some. Suggesting that MoveOn and the DNC aren't cooperating with the Kerry campaign is blatant lunacy. They link to Kerry websites, they feature Kerry's image, they talk about needing a change in leadership. What do you need in order to see the obvious? A curtain pulled back? Come on. Saying stuff like that just undermines any legitimate points you want to make. It's blindingly obvious that they're working together, albeit within the loophole rules, but I'm just of the opinion that it's violating the spirit if not the letter of the law, and that someone should be making sure that loophole is closed.

Your logic is flawed. Does Moveon support Kerry? Of course, he isn't Bush. They would support anyone who won the primaries. Does Kerry support Moveon? I'm sure some of their ads help him, but others hurt. The Gore speech they sponsored did not help Kerry at all. So if Kerry can somehow control Moveon, why let them do harmful ads and events? Stop making connections that don't exist and then making the O'liely-esque logic that to disagree is lunacy. The burdon of proof is on you if you make bold claims. But I guess the right wing pundits and their sheep are not known for using facts or evidence.

 

[cKGunslinger]

Originally posted by: BDawg

Originally posted by: bozack
Yup, his people put it out, let it run long enough to make their point and then he gets to look like a bigger man by denouncing it...

Believe what you wish. Fact is Bush had the chance to do the same thing first and look like a bigger man, yet he declined.

That bast@rd! How dare he have the chance to make a cheap political ploy to "look like a bigger man" to get a few more votes and not take it! I demand that all politicians take every opportunity, no matter how cheap and useless, to make good face!

See how easy it is to spin this either way? Next topic.

 

[jdbolick]

Originally posted by: Todd33
So if Kerry can somehow control Moveon, why let them do harmful ads and events?

:roll: Yes, that's obviously great logic given that none of Kerry's ads or statements have hurt him in any way. It makes perfect sense that MoveOn would try to hurt Kerry's chances of getting elected.

You, the crab, and others are intentionally missing the obvious just to be disagreeable. I've said all along that Kerry and MoveOn are officially playing within the rules, meaning that the Kerry campaign doesn't create or officially approve the ads MoveOn chooses to run, but by the same token they're obviously 'working together." I already pointed out the analogy to British and American troops in Iraq. They don't use the same people, the same funding, or consult with one another before taking action, but does anyone mean to tell me that they aren't "working together"? Get real.

I'm not even really blaming the Democrats for taking advantage of the rules. I think it's dirty, but Republicans would almost certainly do it too if they were in that situation. This isn't a partisan issue, it's addressing an obvious occurence and stating my concern about campaign finance rules being skirted via loopholes.

 

[cKGunslinger]

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: bozack
Yup, his people put it out, let it run long enough to make their point and then he gets to look like a bigger man by denouncing it...

I see your tinfoil hat is still snugly atop your head.

Ok, I just had a good laugh at this one.

The entire Bush campaign is run by a secretive Rich Elitist Neocon group whose goals are to erode our civil liberties and engage in "unjust wars" based on knowingly falsified information about WMD in Iraq. Bush will probably get re-elected becuase he has "brainwashed" the masses and has important documents that could be used against him destroyed. But despite all this, somehow we're the ones wearing tinfoil hats because we believe that it is possible that Kerry is engaging in a very simple, fundamental political tactic that has been used for ages? Right...

 

[BDawg]

Originally posted by: cKGunslinger

Originally posted by: BDawg

Originally posted by: bozack
Yup, his people put it out, let it run long enough to make their point and then he gets to look like a bigger man by denouncing it...

Believe what you wish. Fact is Bush had the chance to do the same thing first and look like a bigger man, yet he declined.

That bast@rd! How dare he have the chance to make a cheap political ploy to "look like a bigger man" to get a few more votes and not take it! I demand that all politicians take every opportunity, no matter how cheap and useless, to make good face!

See how easy it is to spin this either way? Next topic.

:roll:

 

[Todd33]

I'm sorry, analogies are not proof. You claim they somehow coordinate and share info, you have no proof. Go ahead and assume they have secret meetings. Then with your logic Bush also is in on the planning and coordination of the swiftboat liars.

Bush cries about loopholes, yet he was against the whole campaign finance reform. We need to get rid of TV ads altogether, Bush has spent 100M on misleading attack ads. I wonder how well he would do running on policy issues without spin and distortion? Without Rove and negative campaigning, Bush would never have been elected to anything. Hell, he stands on the stump taking things out of context and misleading daily, all for a free 30sec sound clips for the news.

 

[Hossenfeffer]

jd, yes, it's technically possible that moveon and the Kerry campaign are "working closely together". That being said, I'd call that a leap, and a short-sighted one at that. Of course they're basically on the same side. That's far different from "closely cooperating".