Great Cad. Now can you point me to a Kerry ad that features flag-draped coffins and/or a graveyard or in anyway exploits the dead soldiers of Vietnam? That's what ground zero is, you know, a graveyard. Or didn't you know that?
CADsortaGUY
Lifer
Did you listen to that first link?
"How do you ask a man to be the last man to die in Vietnam...."
That gives enough of a picture - no? Vietnam was a graveyard all over - but you are more than welcome to play the little semantics game of 'showing pictures of coffins'. What would your excuse be if I linked to one that showed flag draped coffins?
Anyway the point is just like alchemize said - "Vietnam was a political violent event, a war. Kerry talks about his leadership and bravery. 9/11 was a political violent event, a terrorist attack. Bush talks about his leadership and response to terror. Either both are OK, or both aren't."
CkG
Well, like I said in this thread and others, I don't have a problem w/ Bush using 9.11 necessarily. It's been reported (widely) that he said he would not use 9.11 for political gain. I don't have a direct quote, however the media's been reporting Bush saying that. So, if that's true, Bush is certainly going back on his word.
Further, I can certainly see how some people (especially 9.11 victims and their families) could be offended by the two images that the Bush campaign chose to use: flag-draped coffin being carried by firefighters and the remains at ground zero where 3,000 people lost their lives. I can't find any comparable imagery in Kerry's ads. Why didn't the Bush campaign choose images of OEF or OIF? Those would certainly be more relevant to Bush's "leadership abilities" during wartime.
In any event, I think you both have a valid point in that both Bush and Kerry should be able to speak to their record, whether that's military or leadership, however, the way they go about it is the important thing. I believe the Bush campaign could have handled their initial ads with a little more dignity.
CADsortaGUY
Lifer
"a little more dignity"?
But anyway - hypothetically would you think kerry should have a little more dignity if he actually did show flag-draped coffins? Or was that just a false stipulation? I really am curious.
CkG
Even though I haven't seen the Bush ads, I abhore thier use as a political tool. Emotions still run high in the familes of the people that were murdered during that day. Rightly so, and now Bush is bringing it back up into thier face. What really needs to be understood is that he really isn't as great of leader that he tries to pretend in his ads. He still hasn't caught the group said to be responsible for the attacks. No justice has been done for all the individuals and families that have suffered the tragic loss. Maybe someone else could run an add with a big picture of Osama mooning off the American people. Smacking his cheeks, yelling back in a texas accent that bush can't catch him. 
At least that would be the truth.
At least that would be the truth.Yes, if Kerry used images of Vietnam soldiers coming off the field in body bags and/or something similar, I would say that yes, Kerry is a hypocrite. Instead though, I can see the differences between Kerry pointing to his military record/leadership in Vietnam and the Bush/Cheney campaign using 9/11 imagery including a flag-draped coffin and the crater at ground zero.
I'm surprised you don't see the difference Cad.
CADsortaGUY
Lifer
Originally posted by: Wolfdog
Even though I haven't seen the Bush ads, I abhore thier use as a political tool. Emotions still run high in the familes of the people that were murdered during that day. Rightly so, and now Bush is bringing it back up into thier face. What really needs to be understood is that he really isn't as great of leader that he tries to pretend in his ads. He still hasn't caught the group said to be responsible for the attacks. No justice has been done for all the individuals and families that have suffered the tragic loss. Maybe someone else could run an add with a big picture of Osama mooning off the American people. Smacking his cheeks, yelling back in a texas accent that bush can't catch him.
You need to watch the ads - and don't blink because you might miss the tiny part that people are getting their panties in a bunch about. Your "assesment" is worthless without seeing the ads. They are on Bush's website.
CkG
CADsortaGUY
Lifer
7:44 into it would be the image you are looking for. This is made by kerry and part of his ad campaign. Please feel free to express your disgust now.**high bandwidth link** ***(dial-up link)***
And also DM - Bush's ads were about leadership, kerry's are supposed to be too. They are the same - both about leadership. I've stated that if Bush came out with an ad specifically flaunting 9/11 I would be very displeased. These ads by Bush so far are no where near flaunting or relying on it.
CkG
Well maybe they should show some flag draped body coming out seems like to many have a short memory, I heard how bad it was to show the 9/11 when it was Bush but now that they find out Kerry was behind it, The 9/11 outrage that is and the rage starts to die, Man to get some women that thinks more of getting Bush out than they do of their family that died, To me that is sick of them and sick of the Dem. party for pulling something like that. If you were old enough you would know that Kerry and Jane and all the others was bitching cause they stoped showing body bags coming in from Nam, Guess that is why Kerry got his toy gun out at a protest and acted like he was shotting people, Just my 2 cents
Well, that's just messed up Cad.
Except Kerry is talking about bringing an investigation along with John McCain into vets who were MIA . . . By the way, is that long-ass spot being run on TV? I highly doubt it.
CADsortaGUY
Lifer
Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Well, that's just messed up Cad.
"Now can you point me to a Kerry ad that features flag-draped coffins"
"if Kerry used images of Vietnam soldiers coming off the field in body bags and/or something similar, I would say that yes, Kerry is a hypocrite."
....
Well - I guess I got my answer to this question
:"What would your excuse be if I linked to one that showed flag draped coffins?"But anyway since we can all see that this is fake(or atleast hypocritical) "outrage" by the kerry camp and his supporters...
Funny that you use the excuse about him "talking about bringing an investigation...." is talking about his supposed leadership(with a coffin in the background) yet you seem to dismiss Bush's ad talking about his leadership (with an similar type image in the background) as without "dignity".
Oh and BTW - that video I linked to has it's own little box on his video page and is sort of "set out" from the other ads and is also in the "feature videos" section of that page too.
CkG
lets not forget the unforgettable photo-op created by President Clinton, when he casually strolled down the beach at Normandy during ceremonies to commemorate the 50th anniversary of D-Day(9,000 dead ). Battleship conveniently parked in the background, stones planted by aides on a beach devoid of stones, he makes a cross out of the stones!!!HAHAHA and this isn't using the dead for political advantage? How about later when he had a "knocked down" U.S. flag planted at the cemetery, so he could "kneel down and straighten the flag". Priceless!!!
but i forget..liberals have no shame.
but i forget..liberals have no shame.
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
"Now can you point me to a Kerry ad that features flag-draped coffins"
"if Kerry used images of Vietnam soldiers coming off the field in body bags and/or something similar, I would say that yes, Kerry is a hypocrite."
....
Well - I guess I got my answer to this question
But anyway since we can all see that this is fake(or atleast hypocritical) "outrage" by the kerry camp and his supporters...
Funny that you use the excuse about him "talking about bringing an investigation...." is talking about his supposed leadership(with a coffin in the background) yet you seem to dismiss Bush's ad talking about his leadership (with an similar type image in the background) as without "dignity".
Oh and BTW - that video I linked to has it's own little box on his video page and is sort of "set out" from the other ads and is also in the "feature videos" section of that page too.
CkG
Nice little rant you have going with yourself Cad. I already agreed it was messed up. I certainly don't like the idea of politicians using coffins and/or bodies of dead soldiers for political purposes. Interesting that you still haven't answered my question: Is the video you linked to running on national television, or not? I want to make sure we're comparing apples to apples here.
I wrote in the last thread that Kerry's camp informed us of this "controversal" ad before others knew about it. The guy is too desperate and incredibly negative.
CADsortaGUY
Lifer
Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
"Now can you point me to a Kerry ad that features flag-draped coffins"
"if Kerry used images of Vietnam soldiers coming off the field in body bags and/or something similar, I would say that yes, Kerry is a hypocrite."
....
Well - I guess I got my answer to this question
But anyway since we can all see that this is fake(or atleast hypocritical) "outrage" by the kerry camp and his supporters...
Funny that you use the excuse about him "talking about bringing an investigation...." is talking about his supposed leadership(with a coffin in the background) yet you seem to dismiss Bush's ad talking about his leadership (with an similar type image in the background) as without "dignity".
Oh and BTW - that video I linked to has it's own little box on his video page and is sort of "set out" from the other ads and is also in the "feature videos" section of that page too.
CkG
Nice little rant you have going with yourself Cad. I already agreed it was messed up. I certainly don't like the idea of politicians using coffins and/or bodies of dead soldiers for political purposes. Interesting that you still haven't answered my question: Is the video you linked to running on national television, or not? I want to make sure we're comparing apples to apples here.
I don't believe the whole ad has run on TV but there are portions of it that have. But then again - I have to ask - what difference does it make? An ad is an ad - no? Does it have to be on TV for outrage? Does it make kerry and his supporters who are "outraged" any less hypocritical because it's only hosted on his official site instead of actually airing in it's entirety on TV?
BTW - it wasn't a rant
And anyway - "that's just messed up" isn't outraged enoughCkG
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
I don't believe the whole ad has run on TV but there are portions of it that have. But then again - I have to ask - what difference does it make? An ad is an ad - no? Does it have to be on TV for outrage? Does it make kerry and his supporters who are "outraged" any less hypocritical because it's only hosted on his official site instead of actually airing in it's entirety on TV?
BTW - it wasn't a rant
CkG
What difference does it make? Hmmm, I shouldn't have to explain the difference between a 12 minute documentary video buried on Kerry's web site along with 30 or 40 other videos (I still don't know which one it is) and a 30 second ad run repeatedly on national television. Of course it makes sense why you would try to confuse the two.
Besides Cad, you really have no point because I was never really outraged to begin with. I said in the other threads about this subject that (A) I can see how some people could be offended - especially 9/11 victims and family, (B) Bush apparantly claimed in the past that he wouldn't use 9/11 for political gain and is now going back on his word, and (C) I personally don't like politicians using dead people for political gain.
So WTF do you expect me to do exactly? Write some letters? Call Rush?
CADsortaGUY
Lifer
Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
I don't believe the whole ad has run on TV but there are portions of it that have. But then again - I have to ask - what difference does it make? An ad is an ad - no? Does it have to be on TV for outrage? Does it make kerry and his supporters who are "outraged" any less hypocritical because it's only hosted on his official site instead of actually airing in it's entirety on TV?
BTW - it wasn't a rant
CkG
What difference does it make? Hmmm, I shouldn't have to explain the difference between a 12 minute documentary video buried on Kerry's web site along with 30 or 40 other videos (I still don't know which one it is) and a 30 second ad run repeatedly on national television. Of course it makes sense why you would try to confuse the two.
Besides Cad, you really have no point because I was never really outraged to begin with. I said in the other threads about this subject that (A) I can see how some people could be offended - especially 9/11 victims and family, (B) Bush apparantly claimed in the past that he wouldn't use 9/11 for political gain and is now going back on his word, and (C) I personally don't like politicians using dead people for political gain.
So WTF do you expect me to do exactly? Write some letters? Call Rush?
It isn't "buried" - like I stated - it is there on his video page twice. It's called - "new courage" - I figured the links would have identified it as such.
I know you aren't outraged but it is increasingly obvious that kerry and his supporters are trying to have it both ways. Then when someone like you comes along and joins their criticisms of Bush but ignores the fact that kerry is doing the same thing - it cements the deal.
Bush's ads were about leadership - they weren't "flaunting" 9/11 and barely even touched on that. Where as kerry has tried to use Vietnam at every turn. I think most people when comparing both would see no room for kerry and his supporters to whine about these Bush ads.
But anyway - (A) I can see how some people could be offended - especially Vietnam vets and their family, (B) Kerry apparantly has claimed in the past that people shouldn't use something as devisive as Vietnam for political gain, (C) I personally don't think that politicians flaunting dead people should be used for political gain....(ofcourse as long as it is against Bush it's OK
)Like alchemize said to start you off on this:
"Vietnam was a political violent event, a war. Kerry talks about his leadership and bravery.
9/11 was a political violent event, a terrorist attack. Bush talks about his leadership and response to terror.
Either both are OK, or both aren't."
CkG
What amazes me about this whole debate is that it's as if the Bush-haters want his campaign to completely overlook the fact that 9/11 occurred, except when they seek to use it to disparage the President. That's ok, of course. Essentially, what they want is for the Bush campaign to say, "Certain things happened in the economy, we've toppled the Taliban and Saddam, and there is a Global War on Terror, but we can't say what started it".
It was readily apparent when the Today show had some "outraged" 9/11 victims' relatives that at least one of them was a political operative who had been specifically coached on what to say. The fact that the political tendrils connect back to the Democrats is hardly surprising.
And, by the way, there are plenty of 9/11 victims' relatives who are not outraged and who in fact support the President. Let's just ignore them, shall we?
It was readily apparent when the Today show had some "outraged" 9/11 victims' relatives that at least one of them was a political operative who had been specifically coached on what to say. The fact that the political tendrils connect back to the Democrats is hardly surprising.
And, by the way, there are plenty of 9/11 victims' relatives who are not outraged and who in fact support the President. Let's just ignore them, shall we?
Yes, that's right Alchie, A=B because you say so. Just like the president, some people don't do nuance.
I guess the fact that the 9/11 tragedy is still fresh in everyone's mind wouldn't have anything to do with it? Vietnam was 30+ years ago, hmmmm think the raw emotions have softened over time? I guess some 12-minute documentary on Kerry's life & career buried on his web site among 40 other videos = 30 second spot on national TV? Yes, I can certainly see how people couldn't tell the difference between them.
Yup, you've single-handedly proven it: anything is justifiable. I'm more "outraged" by the black/white mindset around here than anything Bush has done at this point.
Well, all right! I finally made your sig. Nice. You know, I really am a non-partisan voter. I'll scan my voter registration paperwork and post it if you want me to prove it. You want me to prove it, punk?
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