Kepler/NVidia: Power Control/Dynamic OC etc. is extremely annoying

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BallaTheFeared

Diamond Member
Nov 15, 2010
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I think AMD's unlocked voltage control is better than Nvidia's boost from an overclockers point of view. However Nvidia's solution is much more precise and a far better solution when it comes to a hands off approach. AMD's isn't actually all that great, it's a lazy blanket solution that results in higher power consumption than should be taking place, as well as more degradation due to higher temps, more voltage applied of course.

However as someone who enjoys tinkering with hardware this wasn't a problem for me. Once I got a kill-a-watt I was able to see just how badly overvolted my card was at stock, being a boost TF3 I had stock clocks of 960MHz, with a stock voltage of 1.25v... Which needless to say unless you've got the crummiest gpu in the world, is well past what's actually needed to start with (later on you'll probably need to raise it, but out of the gate it's beyond overkill). Dropping my voltage at stock clocks from 1250mv to 1063mv, stock voltage actually used 22% more power in my tests than a manual undervolt... It's quite a considerable margin of error, consider that 1050/1500 clock speed with manual voltage resulted in less watts drawn than stock clocks at 1.25v you can see how this crude method really left a lot of performance on the table for AMD.

I don't have a Kepler card, and likely never will. I can't really comment on boost/boost 2.0 because of that, but the total lack of actual control presented by Nvidia was one of the major reasons I never purchased a Kepler card. I understand they want to cut into the console market, that's the direction they want to go... Which means software like GeForce Experience, and cards that auto overclock and are fool-proof for foolish overclockers. AMD probably understands the advantages this presents as well, which is why so many cards are now coming voltage locked out of the gate for AMD. I think between Kepler Boost and AMD locked voltage neither are desired, however in that situation I'd much rather have a Kepler because they're much more precise (seemingly) with their voltage/clocks regulatory system... It's probably not as accurate as manual control, but it has to be far and away better than AMD's solution to simply lock out any voltage control at all. It makes downclocking and undervolting a near pointless affair, and it really takes away the end users ability to hone their experience and be more cost effective with their hardware by delivering more structured clocks and voltage per need on a per game bases.

/Meh

Enthusiasts seem to be an after thought for both at this point, quite a disappointing generation tbh... If this were cpu's it'd be like Intel releasing 1155 without k chips at all for Nvidia, or in AMD's case, opening with all k processors and then slowly fusing them off as time goes on until you don't know which is which anymore.
 

Arzachel

Senior member
Apr 7, 2011
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It's just a different emphasis -- stability and safety instead of offering some people the fun of seeing how far they can push the card while keeping it semi-stable.

I'd rather spend my time playing games than playing the overclocking "game" so I'm happier with this approach. Buy the card, plug it in, play games.

If I remember correctly, the base( boost? ) guaranteed clock on GTX680s is 1081. Reviewers where getting cards that did anywhere from slightly above that to north of 1200. If you don't mind your GPU preforming somwhere around 0-10% worse than why the hell even look at benchmarks? Just toss a coin.
 

willomz

Senior member
Sep 12, 2012
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If I remember correctly, the base( boost? ) guaranteed clock on GTX680s is 1081. Reviewers where getting cards that did anywhere from slightly above that to north of 1200. If you don't mind your GPU preforming somwhere around 0-10% worse than why the hell even look at benchmarks? Just toss a coin.

I can see we are into glass half full, glass half empty territory here. You want to say no to a free performance boost?

You should always take benchmarks with a pinch of salt anyway, there are so many factors that are affected essentially by chance compared to your personal use of the card.

There's certainly a lot less chance involved compared to 'proper' overclocking which everyone is talking about as being preferable.

Is there any evidence that boost clocks vary significantly when you eliminate other variables?
 

3DVagabond

Lifer
Aug 10, 2009
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I can see we are into glass half full, glass half empty territory here. You want to say no to a free performance boost?

You should always take benchmarks with a pinch of salt anyway, there are so many factors that are affected essentially by chance compared to your personal use of the card.

There's certainly a lot less chance involved compared to 'proper' overclocking which everyone is talking about as being preferable.

Is there any evidence that boost clocks vary significantly when you eliminate other variables?

Nobody's complaining about free performance. Let's try again, shall we?

When you read a review and the reviewer's card is boosting to 1200+ you have no idea whether or not a card you buy will perform the same. It makes comparing between cards in a review impossible.

Scenario: You look at a review and the GTX 680 is overall 7% slower than the 7970GHz. That's not enough to really be concerned about. The reality though could be that the card you actually purchase could be +15% slower than the 7970. What's the point of reviewing such products if there is no reasonable expectation that yours will perform the same?

Where's the free performance in that scenario?
 

willomz

Senior member
Sep 12, 2012
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It's a totally imagined scenario.

You are speculating that on some cards boost just doesn't work. I don't see any evidence that when comparing like with like there are any meaningful variations between boost clocks on different cards of the same model.

If you buy a card of the same model as in a review and test it in a similar way you will see similar results.

Have you ever heard a single person complain?
 

3DVagabond

Lifer
Aug 10, 2009
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[H]'s 680 clocked to 1300MHz. It's not totally imagined at all. It's black and white. Then when someone else's clocks to 1100MHz they are supposedly getting "free performance". They're told to quit whining and complaining. lol
 

boxleitnerb

Platinum Member
Nov 1, 2011
2,605
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That is why you should read not just one review. PCGH is a good source since they fix the clocks to the average boost clocks observed by Nvidia (i.e. 1058 MHz for the GTX 680).

Btw, reviews aren't perfectly accurate to the last percentage point, anyway. Reviews only investigate performance in one of so many possible scenarios per game. Different games, levels, settings, CPU, newer beta drivers and game updates etc. can easily account for a seizable difference from what you see in one particular review with a certain selection of games.

Thus I find it silly to mourn over comparability. Nothing is perfectly comparable, that's the way it is.
 

3DVagabond

Lifer
Aug 10, 2009
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That is why you should read not just one review. PCGH is a good source since they fix the clocks to the average boost clocks observed by Nvidia (i.e. 1058 MHz for the GTX 680).

Btw, reviews aren't perfectly accurate to the last percentage point, anyway. Reviews only investigate performance in one of so many possible scenarios per game. Different games, levels, settings, CPU, newer beta drivers and game updates etc. can easily account for a seizable difference from what you see in one particular review with a certain selection of games.

Thus I find it silly to mourn over comparability. Nothing is perfectly comparable, that's the way it is.

You take it to the extreme and act like I'm asking for perfection, when I never said that. Look at the OP's situation. Look at the difference in Titan once it warms up? Look at [H]'s infamous review sample. Throttling in games that can't be overridden. There is no power slider in nVidia's control panel that make these variables go away. All of the other examples you list are still applicable and then you have to add these other factors in.
 

willomz

Senior member
Sep 12, 2012
334
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Kyle saw a GTX 680 sample card reach over 1300MHz running live demos but it could not sustain this clock.

You mean this bit?

That's just an anecdote, not really part of the review.

Chances are that was a pretty unusual circumstance, we know that boost varies widely based on how hard the video card is working. Under heavy stress e.g. OCCT it won't boost at all, on an undemanding game like SC2 it will boost much higher.

If you are comparing like with like I simply don't believe there are any major differences. My Nvidia card boosts just like the review sample did and I've never heard anyone complain that their card has a 'weak boost' or anything like that.
 

notty22

Diamond Member
Jan 1, 2010
3,375
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The same doubting Thomas, wants buyers to consider overclocking? No problem ignoring the worst case results then.
Or stating one owner's negative experience, could be typical of everyone! As reasonable.
 

3DVagabond

Lifer
Aug 10, 2009
11,951
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The same doubting Thomas, wants buyers to consider overclocking? No problem ignoring the worst case results then.
Or stating one owner's negative experience, could be typical of everyone! As reasonable.

How many results do you need before it's not just a worst case? This sort of thing is not just one user's experience. Who's talking about O/C'ing here?
 

willomz

Senior member
Sep 12, 2012
334
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Erm the OP?

The whole thread is about regular overclocking vs automatic 'boost' overclocking.

There is quite clearly much more variation between 'proper' overclocking in reviews and what you might actually achieve on your card compared to variation in boost clocks achieved.
 

boxleitnerb

Platinum Member
Nov 1, 2011
2,605
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You take it to the extreme and act like I'm asking for perfection, when I never said that. Look at the OP's situation. Look at the difference in Titan once it warms up? Look at [H]'s infamous review sample. Throttling in games that can't be overridden. There is no power slider in nVidia's control panel that make these variables go away. All of the other examples you list are still applicable and then you have to add these other factors in.

That is what EVGA Precision etc. is for. People that want to overclock and tweak should not shy away from using 3rd party tools. And as I mentioned earlier, there is a limit to the power consumption of the card that the user cannot influence (unless he flashes an unlocked bios with higher value).

A friend of mine has 4 Titans and he gets close to 1 GHz on each card, having raised the temperature target to 90°C. It's our choice - do we want a cooler card/more efficient or a faster card? Boost is here to stay - if you want to really overclock, provide sufficient cooling and/or raise the power target via software or with a modified bios. Shouldn't be too hard for enthusiasts.
 

Rifter

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
11,522
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What I want is CHOICE. Same as always, I have always overclocked and probably always will, its a hobby like any other.

I realize by doing what I do I void the warranty and would never try and return a overclocked product. I even lapped my i7 930 effectively voiding my warranty before I even installed it and tested that it worked but that's just a risk you take when you get into this hobby.

That said I realize there are some low life scum out there who would overclock and damage their cards then return them expecting replacement so I do realize the need for a way for the makers of these cards to weed out these scumbags.

So add a simple switch, that once triggered will turn off all power saving/card protection software and allow the user to use the card however he wants, with whatever voltage and clocks as he wants. Obviously this would void the warranty so also have this switch trigger a non reversible or reprogrammable memory chip on the card that will save this state and tell the maker of that card that the card has been put into unlocked mode and therefore warranty is void.


Problem solved, makers get what they want and users get what they want.
 

willomz

Senior member
Sep 12, 2012
334
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Thing is it is a bit of an assumption that you could get better performance by disabling GPU Boost.

For all we know Boost might be the way to maximise performance, until we've seen both modes we don't know.

I know the AMD Boost is a bit different, but perhaps someone could test a Boost BIOS card vs a non Boost BIOS and see which gets the best performance when overclocked?
 

Arzachel

Senior member
Apr 7, 2011
903
76
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That is why you should read not just one review. PCGH is a good source since they fix the clocks to the average boost clocks observed by Nvidia (i.e. 1058 MHz for the GTX 680).

This is closer to what should be done, but can you RMA a Kepler card for not hitting the average boost clock?

I don't believe this to be a glass half full thing because there is no magical free performance fairy, every Kepler cards simply come overclocked right out of the gate. This isn't an inherently bad thing, some people just don't want to fuss around with overclocking, but the issue here is that you aren't getting a cool free overclock on top of the performance you saw in *insert your favorite GPU bench site*, you're going to get an appreciable amount less, because you can bet that reviewers are going to get cards with as low leakage as possible.

If there is something that you can count on, it's that companies are going to jump on any way to look better than the competition. I'm just somewhat annoyed that it's spun as a feature, when it's actually just something to make them look better in benchmarks while delivering less to the actual users.
 

willomz

Senior member
Sep 12, 2012
334
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So if this Boost is such a bad thing, does everyone who buys a 7950 immediately flash it to a non Boost BIOS as soon as they install it? Kepler doesn't even need silly voltages to go into Boost state.

Do you own a Kepler card? Try having a look at your own clocks to see how they compare to those in reviews. I'll check mine when I get home. I checked when I bought the card and while I can't recall exactly, the clocks were very similar to those that were reported by the review sites.

Yes it is kinda like pre-overclocking a card, but it's not actually a very ambitious overclock. You can still add an offset to your card and get further gains. Saying it is a dirty trick is like saying any factory overclock is a marketing scam.
 

exar333

Diamond Member
Feb 7, 2004
8,518
8
91
It would be nice if you could simply disable the boost capabilities via BIOS or OC tool, and then manually configure the speed as you like. This exists for CPUs today, and works fine. At least having the choice would be helpful.
 

willomz

Senior member
Sep 12, 2012
334
0
0
Frankly I'd rather Nvidia kept on devoting time to driver improvements rather than waste time on making new BIOSes that made their cards slower, just to keep the 0.1% happy.
 

flexy

Diamond Member
Sep 28, 2001
8,464
155
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I am telling you guys, this is getting "better and better" /SARCASM

I just installed Bioshock Infinite and my GPU usage while playing is 41% with the card clocking at 1032 WHEN PLAYING.

When I tab out (like right now), my card is at 100% and the clock at 1202.

Does this make ANY sense?
 

SirPauly

Diamond Member
Apr 28, 2009
5,187
1
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If there is something that you can count on, it's that companies are going to jump on any way to look better than the competition. I'm just somewhat annoyed that it's spun as a feature, when it's actually just something to make them look better in benchmarks while delivering less to the actual users.

I don't buy that at all.
 

Lepton87

Platinum Member
Jul 28, 2009
2,544
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I think NV shouldn't at least lock down their flagship card, it cost so much that locking it down is downright greedy. How much of their sales does it consist? 0.1% if that much. It should be as robust as a tank but it stills looks like a good aftermarket mid-range card. It looks downright pathetic in comparison with ROG 7970 and cost 2x as much. We are already paying crazy stupid price for it, another 100$ wouldn't make a difference if they really need to keep their margins that crazy high.
 

3DVagabond

Lifer
Aug 10, 2009
11,951
204
106
I am telling you guys, this is getting "better and better" /SARCASM

I just installed Bioshock Infinite and my GPU usage while playing is 41% with the card clocking at 1032 WHEN PLAYING.

When I tab out (like right now), my card is at 100% and the clock at 1202.

Does this make ANY sense?

I suppose you should just be happy with the additional "free performance" you get while cruising the net. /sarc

Seriously, I'd RMA the card. It's obviously not performing right.
 

blackened23

Diamond Member
Jul 26, 2011
8,548
2
0
I am telling you guys, this is getting "better and better" /SARCASM

I just installed Bioshock Infinite and my GPU usage while playing is 41% with the card clocking at 1032 WHEN PLAYING.

When I tab out (like right now), my card is at 100% and the clock at 1202.

Does this make ANY sense?

Sounds like you need to either A) make a program profile in NV control panel to specify "prefer maximum performance" for power management or B) Apply that same setting to everything.