Keith Olbermann attack Obama on warantless wiretapping

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
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350
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Glenn Greenwald's column today not only shows how liberal commentator after liberal commentator is doing what the right so consistently failed to do with Bush, but he eloquently makes the case for why it's important they do so and why they should in this case. Actually, eloquence takes the back seat to the blistering case.

I've previously commented that while nearly all of the right's claims of the left 'blindly' defending Obama for the same things they attacked Bush for are false, that one legitimate such claim was with a Keith Olbermann piece. Now, look at Olbermann go - he opens the second piece in the link with 'Obama is dead wrong'.

His guest speculates in a worrisome theory that Obama is doing this because he feels he has to appease the intelligence community to get their support.

Tonight, Olbermann will have the EFF on with a guest, and it'll likely be also worth watching.

Link to Greewald's commentary and Olbermann video segments.
 

racolvin

Golden Member
Jul 26, 2004
1,254
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0
And well Olbermann and the rest should burn Obama (and Holder) at the stake for this travesty. I hope Olberman gets all red-faced and frothing and continues it for a long while. When Bush/Cheney did it it was plain wrong and its just as wrong now.
 

Harvey

Administrator<br>Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
35,057
67
91
That's one thing I like about Olbermann! Standing up for principle and truth is more important than which side is telling it. :thumbsup:

In the thread about Obama's position, one member posted to laugh and call me out by name, and another used my general reference to Bush:

So what line will have to be crossed for Obama to become Traitor in Chief

I replied:

You're laughing about this??? :shocked:

I e-mailed Obama:

If you follow through with this, you will be continuing to shred the Constitutional rights of American citizens in the same way as the ex-Traitor In Chief, George W. Bush and his criminal cabal of traitors, murdrers, torturers, war criminals and general incompetents.

PLEASE! PLEASE! PLEASE! Rethink this position, and give us back the Constitution and United States of America we were raised to believe in. Anything less is the same TREASON committed by your predecessor!

Did you really think I'd be inconsistant about this because it's Obama instead of Bush? :confused:

Our Constitutional rights were not won by pathetic jackasses like you who were unwilling to fight for them because they thought losing them was a laughing matter. :thumbsdown: :|

I've been very impressed with Obama, but he's dead ass wrong about this issue.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
The pattern I see developing here is worrisome.

The financial industry in the US is its 800 pound gorilla, and oen theory I've speculated about for Obama's giveaway to them is that they can effectively blackmail him.

"Nice economy you have there, Mr. President, be a shame if something happened to it."

Now, we have a commentator suggesting the intelligence community might need to be appeased. "Nice long stretch without a terroist attack, Mr. President..."

Now, while it approaches tin foil territory to go too far down the road on that, I'm familiar with many incidents of the president feeling this sort of thing.

I forget where I saw it, but I recall one apparently informed commentator say 'the truth has never come out about how badly the military undermined President Carter'.

I know JFK had some similar thinking - there's a reason he said he wanted to cut the CIA into a thousand pieces and thrown them to the wind, there's a reason he created the DIA to get around the JCS organizations, why he put 'his guy' in place as the middleman between him and the JCS. A reason why FDR said he wanted the Pentagon to be a temporary building for WWII, because if they military got any such huge bureaucratic base they'd get too much power and be harder for the government to control.

JFK was also known to tell friends he found the coup in "Seven Days in May" plausible and that he felt he was 'one more Bay of Pigs' away before it might happen to him, early on

Remember even Reagan - if you take him at all about his word - claiming shock at what his own staff had done with things like 'arms for hostages'.

Does this sound like a President in charge of his people, one immune to being undermined by them if they so desire? (Reagan televised national speech):

For the past 3 months, I've been silent on the revelations about Iran. And you must have been thinking: "Well, why doesn't he tell us what's happening? Why doesn't he just speak to us as he has in the past when we've faced troubles or tragedies?" Others of you, I guess, were thinking: "What's he doing hiding out in the White House?"...

I've paid a price for my silence in terms of your trust and confidence. But I've had to wait, as you have, for the complete story. That's why I appointed Ambassador David Abshire as my special counselor to help get out the thousands of documents to the various investigations. And I appointed a special review board, the Tower board, which took on the chore of pulling the truth together for me and getting to the bottom of things. It has now issued its findings.

I'm often accused of being an optimist, and it's true I had to hunt pretty hard to find any good news in the Board's report. As you know, it's well-stocked with criticisms, which I'll discuss in a moment; but I was very relieved to read this sentence: "... the Board is convinced that the President does indeed want the full story to be told." And that will continue to be my pledge to you as the other investigations go forward.

I want to thank the members of the panel: former Senator John Tower, former Secretary of State Edmund Muskie, and former national security adviser Brent Scowcroft. They have done the Nation, as well as me personally, a great service by submitting a report of such integrity and depth. They have my genuine and enduring gratitude.

I've studied the Board's report. Its findings are honest, convincing, and highly critical; and I accept them. And tonight I want to share with you my thoughts on these findings and report to you on the actions I'm taking to implement the Board's recommendations.

First, let me say I take full responsibility for my own actions and for those of my administration. As angry as I may be about activities undertaken without my knowledge, I am still accountable for those activities. As disappointed as I may be in some who served me, I'm still the one who must answer to the American people for this behavior. And as personally distasteful as I find secret bank accounts and diverted funds - well, as the Navy would say, this happened on my watch.

Let's start with the part that is the most controversial. A few months ago I told the American people I did not trade arms for hostages. My heart and my best intentions still tell me that's true, but the facts and the evidence tell me it is not

Naturally, the president will never want to scare the American people by saying much about these issues - with the very rare exceptions like Eisenhower's farewell speech.

When we see Obama pursuing policies so opposed to his base's preferences, to the apparent national interest, where he pays the enormous prices both political (reversing his positions on the wiretapping) and literal (hundreds of billions for the financial industry), it raises some worrisome concerns about his 'freedom of operation'.

If there's a consolation, it's that he's *said* that there are big changes needed which would address these things long-term. Those words are sounding more hollow, with bad choices.
 
Sep 12, 2004
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I'm not sure whether it's liberals standing on principle or just being so hardheaded they refuse to recognize it's possible that Obama sees the very same need that Bush saw regarding the surviellence issue. The main problem that confronts them is if they admit that Obama is right they'll passively acknowledge that Bush was right as well and I highly doubt that goes could be tolerated by any of the more rabid anti-Bush liberals at all. The fact that it's primarily the more rabid, anti-Bush liberals making all the noise about this makes me believe it's more about their own pride and ego than any facts or truth.

So now go ahead and bring on the indignant responses. I'm expecting them.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,888
55,148
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Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
I'm not sure whether it's liberals standing on principle or just being so hardheaded they refuse to recognize it's possible that Obama sees the very same need that Bush saw regarding the surviellence issue. The main problem that confronts them is if they admit that Obama is right they'll passively acknowledge that Bush was right as well and I highly doubt that goes could be tolerated by any of the more rabid anti-Bush liberals at all. The fact that it's primarily the more rabid, anti-Bush liberals making all the noise about this makes me believe it's more about their own pride and ego than any facts or truth.

So now go ahead and bring on the indignant responses. I'm expecting them.

And if the people now supported Obama for doing this you would be shrieking about how people were such hacks for supporting Obama for the same thing they attacked Bush on.

If all you've got is a hammer, everything looks like a nail, right TLC?
 

Double Trouble

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
9,270
103
106
It just goes to show that even a broken clock is right twice a day. Olbermann is a moron and a blowhard, but on this one he's got it right and both Bush and Obama have it completely wrong.
 

3chordcharlie

Diamond Member
Mar 30, 2004
9,859
1
81
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
I'm not sure whether it's liberals standing on principle or just being so hardheaded they refuse to recognize it's possible that Obama sees the very same need that Bush saw regarding the surviellence issue. The main problem that confronts them is if they admit that Obama is right they'll passively acknowledge that Bush was right as well and I highly doubt that goes could be tolerated by any of the more rabid anti-Bush liberals at all. The fact that it's primarily the more rabid, anti-Bush liberals making all the noise about this makes me believe it's more about their own pride and ego than any facts or truth.

So now go ahead and bring on the indignant responses. I'm expecting them.

Dictatorships have always worked better than democracies from a top-down viewpoint, and civil liberties have never been convenient.

You can rationalize anything from torture to wiretapping, from the Japanese internment to debt slavery, from pre-emptive 'Shock and Awe' to trillion dollar bailouts for the already wealthy, from 'President for life' to genocide in this way. There is no limit to what you can rationalize as 'need' if you let yourself do it.

Tell us; where is the line? Try to come up with something less predictable than 'when they try to take my gun';)
 

Looney

Lifer
Jun 13, 2000
21,938
5
0
I'm one of those that is flabbergasted that Obama is continuing with this... especially so since he was a Constitutional law professor!
 

MotF Bane

No Lifer
Dec 22, 2006
60,801
10
0
Originally posted by: Harvey
That's one thing I like about Olbermann! Standing up for principle and truth is more important than which side is telling it. :thumbsup:

In the thread about Obama's position, one member posted to laugh and call me out by name, and another used my general reference to Bush:

So what line will have to be crossed for Obama to become Traitor in Chief

I replied:

You're laughing about this??? :shocked:

I e-mailed Obama:

If you follow through with this, you will be continuing to shred the Constitutional rights of American citizens in the same way the ex-Traitor In Chief, George W. Bush and his criminal cabal of traitors, murdrers, torturers, war criminals and general incompetents.

PLEASE! PLEASE! PLEASE! Rethink this position, and give us back the Constitution and United States of America we were raised to believe in. Anything less is the same TREASON committed by your predecessor!

Did you really think I'd be inconsistant about this because it's Obama instead of Bush? :confused:

Our Constitutional rights were not won by pathetic jackasses like you who were unwilling to fight for them because they thought losing them was a laughing matter. :thumbsdown: :|

I've been very impressed with Obama, but he's dead ass wrong about this issue.

I never would have expected to see that from you. :shocked:
 

Double Trouble

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
9,270
103
106
Originally posted by: Looney
I'm one of those that is flabbergasted that Obama is continuing with this... especially so since he was a Constitutional law professor!

I'm a little surprised, but I wouldn't say "flabbergasted". "Change" was a nice mantra, but anyone expecting real significant changes in politics is in for an awakening. In some ways he's been a breath of fresh air, but in many ways he's just more of the usual politicians.
 

Mani

Diamond Member
Aug 9, 2001
4,808
1
0
Agree with Olbermann wholeheartedly on this. No excuse for Obama to continue to support one of the most blatantly unconstitutional practices in America today.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,268
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Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
I'm not sure whether it's liberals standing on principle or just being so hardheaded they refuse to recognize it's possible that Obama sees the very same need that Bush saw regarding the surviellence issue. The main problem that confronts them is if they admit that Obama is right they'll passively acknowledge that Bush was right as well and I highly doubt that goes could be tolerated by any of the more rabid anti-Bush liberals at all. The fact that it's primarily the more rabid, anti-Bush liberals making all the noise about this makes me believe it's more about their own pride and ego than any facts or truth.

So now go ahead and bring on the indignant responses. I'm expecting them.

Since it has never been shown that warrantless wiretaps were needed, it would be hard to argue that Obama "saw the light". Warrants were always allowed after the fact if the situation warranted, and it's not like the FISA courts threw out warrants.

Since warrants aren't an impediment, what construct can you make against having them?
 
Sep 12, 2004
16,852
59
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Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
I'm not sure whether it's liberals standing on principle or just being so hardheaded they refuse to recognize it's possible that Obama sees the very same need that Bush saw regarding the surviellence issue. The main problem that confronts them is if they admit that Obama is right they'll passively acknowledge that Bush was right as well and I highly doubt that goes could be tolerated by any of the more rabid anti-Bush liberals at all. The fact that it's primarily the more rabid, anti-Bush liberals making all the noise about this makes me believe it's more about their own pride and ego than any facts or truth.

So now go ahead and bring on the indignant responses. I'm expecting them.

Since it has never been shown that warrantless wiretaps were needed, it would be hard to argue that Obama "saw the light". Warrants were always allowed after the fact if the situation warranted, and it's not like the FISA courts threw out warrants.

Since warrants aren't an impediment, what construct can you make against having them?
Is Obama pursuing warrantless wiretaps and not getting warrants after the required amount of time?

If not then at least some of this issue may be being blown out of proportion.
 

jackschmittusa

Diamond Member
Apr 16, 2003
5,972
1
0
The warrantless wiretapping has got to go. It is an affront to concept of American freedoms and far exceeds what the American people would grant for government powers.
 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,029
2
81
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
I'm not sure whether it's liberals standing on principle or just being so hardheaded they refuse to recognize it's possible that Obama sees the very same need that Bush saw regarding the surviellence issue. The main problem that confronts them is if they admit that Obama is right they'll passively acknowledge that Bush was right as well and I highly doubt that goes could be tolerated by any of the more rabid anti-Bush liberals at all. The fact that it's primarily the more rabid, anti-Bush liberals making all the noise about this makes me believe it's more about their own pride and ego than any facts or truth.

So now go ahead and bring on the indignant responses. I'm expecting them.

Since it has never been shown that warrantless wiretaps were needed, it would be hard to argue that Obama "saw the light". Warrants were always allowed after the fact if the situation warranted, and it's not like the FISA courts threw out warrants.

Since warrants aren't an impediment, what construct can you make against having them?
Is Obama pursuing warrantless wiretaps and not getting warrants after the required amount of time?

If not then at least some of this issue may be being blown out of proportion.

Whether or not he or anyone else is pursuing them is irrelevant.
 
Sep 12, 2004
16,852
59
86
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
I'm not sure whether it's liberals standing on principle or just being so hardheaded they refuse to recognize it's possible that Obama sees the very same need that Bush saw regarding the surviellence issue. The main problem that confronts them is if they admit that Obama is right they'll passively acknowledge that Bush was right as well and I highly doubt that goes could be tolerated by any of the more rabid anti-Bush liberals at all. The fact that it's primarily the more rabid, anti-Bush liberals making all the noise about this makes me believe it's more about their own pride and ego than any facts or truth.

So now go ahead and bring on the indignant responses. I'm expecting them.

Since it has never been shown that warrantless wiretaps were needed, it would be hard to argue that Obama "saw the light". Warrants were always allowed after the fact if the situation warranted, and it's not like the FISA courts threw out warrants.

Since warrants aren't an impediment, what construct can you make against having them?
Is Obama pursuing warrantless wiretaps and not getting warrants after the required amount of time?

If not then at least some of this issue may be being blown out of proportion.

Whether or not he or anyone else is pursuing them is irrelevant.
Actually, it is quite a bit relevant.

Let's be real here. If Pelosi or certain other Democrats saw a valid way to bring down Bush, destroying the last remaining remnants of the GOP in the process, they would do it. They haven't. If that doesn't give some people a clue, nothing will.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,337
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Le Roi Est Mort, Vive Le Roi!

Partisans will never understand.
 

cubby1223

Lifer
May 24, 2004
13,518
42
86
Originally posted by: jackschmittusa
The warrantless wiretapping has got to go. It is an affront to concept of American freedoms and far exceeds what the American people would grant for government powers.

Yeah, but the only way to stop the warantless wiretapping is elect someone into office who will not do it. Republicans wiretap. Democrats wiretap. Who's left? Ralph Nader? :laugh:
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
[Let's be real here. If Pelosi or certain other Democrats saw a valid way to bring down Bush, destroying the last remaining remnants of the GOP in the process, they would do it. They haven't. If that doesn't give some people a clue, nothing will.

You mean Nancy 'impeachment is off the table' before the Democrats even had power Pelosi?

One analyst I saw said what's going on with going after the Bush people is that Obama doesn't want conflict with the intelligence community, and has thrown the ball to Congress.

In Congress, the main person who would lead the charge is Sen. Patrick Leahy, and he's said he'd like a commission to investigate, but only if the Republicans support it.

Zero Republicans have supported it, showing their own continued corruption, so nothing is happening. Yes, I think Leahy should pursue it without their support.

Back in the Watergate days, if I recall correctly, you had some Republican support for going after Nixon for wrongdoing, even if they gave him the 'benefit of the doubt'.

Now, that seems pretty different. The Democrat shave no one but themselves to blame for not going after this, even while the Replicans are clearly worse on it.

By the way, I have no issue with the people who clarify that 'warrantless wiretapping' is not that accurate - it's shorthand for the legal principles involved as Greenwald explains.

But TLC's inference that the Dems not going after this means there was no wrongdoing is wrong. There are other, if still poor, explanations, and he of course ignores the facts.
 

palehorse

Lifer
Dec 21, 2005
11,521
0
76
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
I'm not sure whether it's liberals standing on principle or just being so hardheaded they refuse to recognize it's possible that Obama sees the very same need that Bush saw regarding the surviellence issue. The main problem that confronts them is if they admit that Obama is right they'll passively acknowledge that Bush was right as well and I highly doubt that goes could be tolerated by any of the more rabid anti-Bush liberals at all. The fact that it's primarily the more rabid, anti-Bush liberals making all the noise about this makes me believe it's more about their own pride and ego than any facts or truth.
This.

The entire segment was one long rhetorical circle-jerk filled with wiretap-related catch-phrases and other emotional drivel that is completely devoid of the technical details required to debate this issue properly.

The unclassified descriptions of the program(s) in question are available, yet 99% of those who condemn the programs don't know jackshit about them, or SIGINT in general. All they need to hear is the word "wiretap," and they go batshit insane!

It's ridiculous.

The program(s) that Obama is continuing are 100% compliant with all previous FISC rulings and the FISA Amendments Act of 2008.

If you disagree, please be prepared to explain, in technical and legal detail, why that's not the case.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,268
126
Originally posted by: palehorse
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
I'm not sure whether it's liberals standing on principle or just being so hardheaded they refuse to recognize it's possible that Obama sees the very same need that Bush saw regarding the surviellence issue. The main problem that confronts them is if they admit that Obama is right they'll passively acknowledge that Bush was right as well and I highly doubt that goes could be tolerated by any of the more rabid anti-Bush liberals at all. The fact that it's primarily the more rabid, anti-Bush liberals making all the noise about this makes me believe it's more about their own pride and ego than any facts or truth.
This.

The entire segment was one long rhetorical circle-jerk filled with wiretap-related catch-phrases and other emotional drivel that is completely devoid of the technical details required to debate this issue properly.

The unclassified descriptions of the program(s) in question are available, yet 99% of those who condemn the programs don't know jackshit about them, or SIGINT in general. All they need to hear is the word "wiretap," and they go batshit insane!

It's ridiculous.

The program(s) that Obama is continuing are 100% compliant with all previous FISC rulings and the FISA Amendments Act of 2008.

If you disagree, please be prepared to explain, in technical and legal detail, why that's not the case.

Sounds great.

Now my question. Do wiretaps which have at least one end of the communication in the USA require a warrant?
 

trenchfoot

Lifer
Aug 5, 2000
15,731
8,308
136
So, whatever happened to "Well, if you ain't done nothing wrong, then what have you got to hide?" LOL

The times they are a'change'in.:D
 

palehorse

Lifer
Dec 21, 2005
11,521
0
76
Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
Originally posted by: palehorse
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
I'm not sure whether it's liberals standing on principle or just being so hardheaded they refuse to recognize it's possible that Obama sees the very same need that Bush saw regarding the surviellence issue. The main problem that confronts them is if they admit that Obama is right they'll passively acknowledge that Bush was right as well and I highly doubt that goes could be tolerated by any of the more rabid anti-Bush liberals at all. The fact that it's primarily the more rabid, anti-Bush liberals making all the noise about this makes me believe it's more about their own pride and ego than any facts or truth.
This.

The entire segment was one long rhetorical circle-jerk filled with wiretap-related catch-phrases and other emotional drivel that is completely devoid of the technical details required to debate this issue properly.

The unclassified descriptions of the program(s) in question are available, yet 99% of those who condemn the programs don't know jackshit about them, or SIGINT in general. All they need to hear is the word "wiretap," and they go batshit insane!

It's ridiculous.

The program(s) that Obama is continuing are 100% compliant with all previous FISC rulings and the FISA Amendments Act of 2008.

If you disagree, please be prepared to explain, in technical and legal detail, why that's not the case.

Sounds great.

Now my question. Do wiretaps which have at least one end of the communication in the USA require a warrant?
The first thing you'll need to do is define "wiretap."