kashmir

kulki

Senior member
Jul 18, 2001
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I dont quite understand whats all this fighting about between India-pak. Since its quite clear that Kashmiris want their own land and India being ademocratic country and everything shouldnt it stand to reason that kashmiris should get what they want. I dont understand how Indian govt justfies holding onto kashmir inspite of peoples wishes?
any comments
 

HappyPuppy

Lifer
Apr 5, 2001
16,997
2
71
Both India and Pakistan want to corner the market on the sweaters. Huge revenue is being lost on both sides.
 

kulki

Senior member
Jul 18, 2001
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damn I was hoping for some serious replies instead I get some jack@#$ replies
 

singh

Golden Member
Jul 5, 2001
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Originally posted by: kulki
I dont quite understand whats all this fighting about between India-pak. Since its quite clear that Kashmiris want their own land and India being ademocratic country and everything shouldnt it stand to reason that kashmiris should get what they want. I dont understand how Indian govt justfies holding onto kashmir inspite of peoples wishes?
any comments


If a state from USA wanted to separate from US, could it do so?

 

Pliablemoose

Lifer
Oct 11, 1999
25,195
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56
The problem is that Kasmir was made part of India some time ago, it's largely Muslim, India is not, lots of political discord & frequent military/quasi military resistance.

India can't allow Kasmir to become independent or part of Pakistan, just like the US can't allow one of it's states to leave the union and become part of say Canada or Mexico.
 

Linflas

Lifer
Jan 30, 2001
15,395
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91
I don't know a whole lot about this but isn't it the same old story of 2 different religous "minorities" being "protected" by respective countries full of their fellow believers?
 

Ameesh

Lifer
Apr 3, 2001
23,686
1
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pakistan is trying to forcibely take over the territory which isnt part of their land.

 

Linflas

Lifer
Jan 30, 2001
15,395
78
91
Originally posted by: singh
Originally posted by: kulki
I dont quite understand whats all this fighting about between India-pak. Since its quite clear that Kashmiris want their own land and India being ademocratic country and everything shouldnt it stand to reason that kashmiris should get what they want. I dont understand how Indian govt justfies holding onto kashmir inspite of peoples wishes?
any comments


If a state from USA wanted to separate from US, could it do so?
Well there is nothing in the Constitution that says no but the loss of 670,000 people decided the issue for us. :(
 

kulki

Senior member
Jul 18, 2001
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is it true that US will not allow a state if it wanted to secede. I thought that the constitution allows a state to secede if its people wanted to. Lokk for instance Canada and quebec
 

Linflas

Lifer
Jan 30, 2001
15,395
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91
Originally posted by: kulki
is it true that US will not allow a state if it wanted to secede. I thought that the constitution allows a state to secede if its people wanted to. Lokk for instance Canada and quebec

No that is what the Civil War was all about. It is not clear that Quebec could seperate peacefully from Canada either. So far Canada has thankfully been spared the test of that idea.
 

kulki

Senior member
Jul 18, 2001
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to me its quite baffling how such a small country as pakistan can hold India hostage unless kashmiris themselves want independence. But is it true that over 6,70000 people dies during american civil war?
 

kulki

Senior member
Jul 18, 2001
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Originally posted by: Linflas
Originally posted by: kulki
is it true that US will not allow a state if it wanted to secede. I thought that the constitution allows a state to secede if its people wanted to. Lokk for instance Canada and quebec

No that is what the Civil War was all about. It is not clear that Quebec could seperate peacefully from Canada either. So far Canada has thankfully been spared the test of that idea.

well what was the referandum for then? I understood that if people had voted for separation then thats what would have happened in quebec. No violence nothing. A peaceful solution to this problem.
 

Linflas

Lifer
Jan 30, 2001
15,395
78
91
Originally posted by: kulki
to me its quite baffling how such a small country as pakistan can hold India hostage unless kashmiris themselves want independence. But is it true that over 6,70000 people dies during american civil war?

Yes we lost more of our countrymen in the Civil War than in any other war we have fought. Here is one site with breakdowns I found.

US Civil War casualties
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
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Originally posted by: kulki
is it true that US will not allow a state if it wanted to secede. I thought that the constitution allows a state to secede if its people wanted to. Lokk for instance Canada and quebec

It was called the Civil War. As pointed out 600,000+ people died. Proportionately, that would be equal to many millions now. Imagine the population of California or New York being put to death. That is what the last attempt cost
 

Linflas

Lifer
Jan 30, 2001
15,395
78
91
Originally posted by: kulki
Originally posted by: Linflas
Originally posted by: kulki
is it true that US will not allow a state if it wanted to secede. I thought that the constitution allows a state to secede if its people wanted to. Lokk for instance Canada and quebec

No that is what the Civil War was all about. It is not clear that Quebec could seperate peacefully from Canada either. So far Canada has thankfully been spared the test of that idea.

well what was the referandum for then? I understood that if people had voted for separation then thats what would have happened in quebec. No violence nothing. A peaceful solution to this problem.
The referendum was held by the Parti Quebecois since they were the party in power. There was nothing incumbent on the Federal Government of Canada to respect the results of either of the 2 referendums held in Quebec that I am aware of. No doubt some Canadians on this board could provide more exact details on this for you.

 

singh

Golden Member
Jul 5, 2001
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Originally posted by: kulki
to me its quite baffling how such a small country as pakistan can hold India hostage unless kashmiris themselves want independence.

Pakistan has lost the last 3 (IIRC) wars it fought against India. This time, if nuclear weapons are used, there will be nothing left of Pakistan which India will probably "survive".
 

chiwawa626

Lifer
Aug 15, 2000
12,013
0
0
Originally posted by: Ameesh
pakistan is trying to forcibely take over the territory which isnt part of their land.
Yup exactly, Therefore india has to fight back, its like America Jr, oh i mean canada, trying to steal washington or something...
The vast majority of Kashmir residents really dont care by now, they just probably care for the war to end, or kashmir to be kashmir again, without guns and violence.
But lets say even if washington wanted to be part of canada, the US would under no circumstances let it...get the point guys?
 

BDawg

Lifer
Oct 31, 2000
11,631
2
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pakistan is trying to forcibely take over the territory which isnt part of their land.

Yes, that's the line all the Indians are quoting, but it isn't exactly true...mostly Indian propoganda.

Here's the 411. Ever since the Indian subcontinent was given up by the British and seperated into an Indian and Pakistani states (divided by religion), the region of Kashmir has been been under debate.

The Pakistanis see the Kashmiri as Muslims, and therefore their brothers who belong in Pakistan. The Indans desire Kasmir because it makes them look more diverse to the rest of the world (not just a Hindu state).

Currently, the disputed area has been seperated into a Pakistani portion and an Indian portion. Due to the nature of the region, I don't think it's fair to claim that the area really belonged to one or the other.
 

BDawg

Lifer
Oct 31, 2000
11,631
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From the FAQ at the CNN article I posted.

Q & A: Flashpoint in the Heavens
Suhasini Haidar, Special to CNN.com

Q: Why is Kashmir a disputed territory?

A: The dispute over Kashmir is as old as the partition of India into India and Pakistan in 1947. The division was made by the then British rulers who gave the two countries independence.

They separated the sub-continent into an Islamic state (Pakistan) and a predominantly Hindu state (India).

At the time, the wishes of the rulers of all the princely states that made up India and Pakistan were taken into account. Kashmir was an oddity, a predominantly Muslim state with a Hindu ruler (Raja Hari Singh).

Hari Singh acceded to India, and Pakistan claimed that was against the wishes of his people. The dispute then turned towards the military, with India sending in its army to repulse what they called "Pakistani invaders" in the Kashmir valley.

Since then, India and Pakistan have fought three wars in the region and a series of military engagements. The most recent battle was over the Kargil sector in 1998.

Over this time, a vast number in the Kashmir valley have grown disillusioned with the Indian government, for what they call "broken promises".

Chief amongst them are local elections they claimed were "rigged by the Indian government" so as to install pro-Indian politicians in Jammu and Kashmir.

Another was a promise of autonomy for Kashmir made to their most popular political figure, Sheikh Muhammad Abdullah three decades ago.

Abdullah supported India's claim to Kashmir on condition of autonomy for the valley. His dream was never fulfilled.

His son, Farooq Abdullah, is now the Chief Minister of Jammu and Kashmir, and has tried to revive Kashmir's demand for autonomy through legislation, with little success.

He is part of the ruling coalition led by the Hindu-nationalist Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP), and often blames Pakistan for the violence in his state, criticizing them for their support for militant action in Kashmir.

Q: Why is Kashmir divided?

A: Since 1948 the border between India and Pakistan in Jammu and Kashmir has constantly shifted, with both sides claiming various territories in military exchanges along that border.

This is why the line that divides Indian-administered Kashmir and Pakistan-occupied Kashmir is known as the "Line of Control".


It has never been agreed to as the official border by the two countries.

While India lays claim to the entire region of Kashmir including the parts under physical control of Pakistan and even China, Pakistan fights for what they call "the rights of the Kashmiri people to decide their own future".

Pakistan says it will only relinquish those parts of Kashmir that it holds when India gives up the Kashmir valley.


Q: Who are the Kashmir militants?

A: Although India and Pakistan have fought constantly on Kashmir's borders, the actual interior of the Kashmir valley was relatively peaceful until 1988.

It was then that the movement for freedom in the valley turned demonstrative, with dozens of anti-India protests and several bomb blasts.

Experts feel the real impetus to violence came in 1989, when a group of armed local separatists (The Jammu and Kashmir Liberation Front or JKLF) kidnapped the daughter of the Indian Home (security) minister, demanding the release of some of their colleagues in jail.

Much to their surprise, the Indian government actually gave in to their demands, thus giving the insurgency in Kashmir an unlooked-for boost.


Since then, India has accused Pakistan of training and arming militant groups for acts of terrorism in Kashmir. Pakistan denies that claim, saying that it only extends moral support to the "struggle" of the Kashmiri people.


More than 30,000 men, women and children have died in the past decade of violence in Kashmir. India deploys more than 500,000 security personnel in the valley to combat the insurgency.

They are often accused of human rights violations in that effort, a charge they almost always deny.

Since the insurgency began thousands of Hindus have fled the Valley, fearing ethnic cleansing by militant groups there. Over the years, the insurgency has received help from pan-Islamic groups, especially trained recruits from Afghanistan, who claim to be fighting a "jihad" or holy war against India in Kashmir.

Many of the original militant groups, like the JKLF have now given up violence and are part of the separatist political leadership, the Hurriyat Conference.

Q: How likely are India and Pakistan to go to war again over Kashmir?

A: Although the possibility of war can never be completely ruled out, both countries are extremely aware of the consequences of letting any flare-up along the border escalate out of control, both countries are nuclear powers.

However, there will probably be continuing incidences of cross-border fire and airspace intrusions.


Q: Why is control of Kashmir so important to both sides?

A: India has always held that Kashmir is "an integral part of India", and would not like to give away any part of territory held by it. It also considers itself a secular nation, partisan to no religion.


Kashmir is the only Indian region to have a majority population of Muslims, something that bolsters India's claim to secularism.


For precisely that reason, Pakistan, an Islamic state would like Kashmir to be a part of it, so as to confirm the two nation theory of its founding President Mohammad Ali Jinnah, which said that the Hindus would stay in India and the Muslims in Pakistan. Kashmir, according to him "was part of the unfinished business of the partition in India in 1947".



Q: Could the conflict end?


A: According to proponents of peace in India and Pakistan, the conflict could end only by a compromise between both countries where each side would have to move from its present stance.


However, experts also point out that Kashmir is not just a territorial issue, but also a political one involving the wishes of the Kashmiri people, and suggest that the area of the Kashmir valley, where the violence is the greatest, must be given greater autonomy from the Indian state.

Q: Are India and Pakistan likely to back down over Kashmir?

A: That is not likely in the immediate present, but could only follow with better bilateral relations between the two neighbors.
 

singh

Golden Member
Jul 5, 2001
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0
Originally posted by: BDawg
pakistan is trying to forcibely take over the territory which isnt part of their land.

Yes, that's the line all the Indians are quoting, but it isn't exactly true...mostly Indian propoganda.

Here's the 411. Ever since the Indian subcontinent was given up by the British and seperated into an Indian and Pakistani states (divided by religion), the region of Kashmir has been been under debate.

The Pakistanis see the Kashmiri as Muslims, and therefore their brothers who belong in Pakistan. The Indans desire Kasmir because it makes them look more diverse to the rest of the world (not just a Hindu state).

Currently, the disputed area has been seperated into a Pakistani portion and an Indian portion. Due to the nature of the region, I don't think it's fair to claim that the area really belonged to one or the other.

You do know that there are more Muslims in Indian than in Pakistan, don't you?

 

BDawg

Lifer
Oct 31, 2000
11,631
2
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You do know that there are more Muslims in Indian than in Pakistan, don't you?

I really couldn't care less. I'm just relaying the facts; trying to stay away from the propoganda that is likely spouted by the large number of Indian decendants here. I don't think this is a black and white situation. Did you even bother to read the CNN info I posted?
 

JellyBaby

Diamond Member
Apr 21, 2000
9,159
1
81
At first glance it seems the answer is simple: come to the table and agree on a firm border, once and for all. Hell, give me a marker and a map and I'll do it for them. If they feel I'm not qualified perhaps the U.N. has a marker or two.

Why didn't the British and other parties involved decide on Kashmir back in the 40s?
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
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Originally posted by: JellyBaby
At first glance it seems the answer is simple: come to the table and agree on a firm border, once and for all. Hell, give me a marker and a map and I'll do it for them. If they feel I'm not qualified perhaps the U.N. has a marker or two. Why didn't the British and other parties involved decide on Kashmir back in the 40s?

A good question. I have no clue. Anyone? I understand why Pakistan and India were set up like they were, but if Kashmir was going to be a bone of contention, why was this not addressed?
 

BDawg

Lifer
Oct 31, 2000
11,631
2
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At first glance it seems the answer is simple: come to the table and agree on a firm border, once and for all. Hell, give me a marker and a map and I'll do it for them. If they feel I'm not qualified perhaps the U.N. has a marker or two.

Why didn't the British and other parties involved decide on Kashmir back in the 40s?

I don't know why Kashmir wasn't divided like the rest of it. For some reason, they gave it's ruler the choice. Perhaps the power of the wool lobby is strong? ;)

The problem is that neither side will agree to any border in which Kashmir isn't theirs.

From above, here's what CNN says.

The dispute over Kashmir is as old as the partition of India into India and Pakistan in 1947. The division was made by the then British rulers who gave the two countries independence.

They separated the sub-continent into an Islamic state (Pakistan) and a predominantly Hindu state (India).

At the time, the wishes of the rulers of all the princely states that made up India and Pakistan were taken into account. Kashmir was an oddity, a predominantly Muslim state with a Hindu ruler (Raja Hari Singh).

Hari Singh acceded to India, and Pakistan claimed that was against the wishes of his people. The dispute then turned towards the military, with India sending in its army to repulse what they called "Pakistani invaders" in the Kashmir valley.

I suppose it wasn't aligned since it didn't fit either place well.