Kaido's 2009 Camcorder Guide

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Kaido

Elite Member & Kitchen Overlord
Feb 14, 2004
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The 3rd-gen VadoHD's are now available from Creative (via Amazon) for $179 shipped:

http://us.store.creative.com/category/19937557301/1/Pocket-Video-Cams.htm

Colors available:

1. Black
2. White
3. Purple
4. Red
5. Cyan (blue)

Accessories available:

1. Mini Tripod with Ballhead: $20
2. Spare Battery: $15
3. External Charger: $30
4. Mesh Case: $15 (silver or pink)
5. Waterproof Case: $30
6. Analog AV Cable: $10 (HDMI is included)

I really like the fact that it has mic input. Also manual exposure adjustments and motion detection (you can set it to begin recording when it detects motion). I haven't picked up a replacement point & shoot cam yet (looking at the SD780 & SX200 from Canon), but the fact that the VadoHD 3rd-gen has mic input is reaaaaaaaly nice...
 

Kaido

Elite Member & Kitchen Overlord
Feb 14, 2004
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I ordered my Canon SX200, arriving next week!! I'm super excited! :D After a couple months of research, I finally decided on the SX200 out of these three 720p pocketcam options:

1. VadoHD 3G: wide-angle + mic input
2. Canon SD780: pocket-sized
3. Canon SX200: 12x optical zoom + macro mode

My primary goal was to find something that would make a great go-anywhere pocketcam, something to easily shoot video & quickly import it. I have a Canon HV20 (MiniDV tape-based) for larger projects, but it's not very convenient for quick clips and small stuff that doesn't require a bigger workflow. So basically I wanted a small, high-quality video camera to take with me everywhere that recorded digitally. However, my Canon A75 pocket camera broke a couple years ago, so I've been without a pocket camera for awhile, so good stills was also a contributing factor.

The first option I looked at was the new VadoHD 3G. At $179, it's the least expensive option of all three cameras. The two big features it has are a wide-angle lens and a microphone input jack. The wide-angle lens fits more into the picture than the competing Flip MinoHD and Kodak Zi8 pocketcams. And although the Zi8 has a mic input jack and a higher 1080p resolution with basic image stabilization, I liked the picture quality from the VadoHD better. Having a mic input jack is a really nice feature because you can vastly improve your movie quality simply by slapping on a good microphone for better audio.

However, as I started looking at all the options, I realized that the video quality from some of the pocket cameras on the market (the ones that do stills primarily) was actually pretty good - and some were even better than the dedicated pocket video cameras like the Vado! The mic input jack was a big deal to me, until I found some software called "PluralEyes", which automatically syncs video with a separate audio track in Final Cut Pro (also available for Sony Vegas Pro for Windows). I have use a Zoom H2 mini digital microphone extensively (which also features mic input, if you want to use a lav or a shotgun or whatever), which goes perfect with small pocket cams, so having an auto-sync plugin would negate the need for having a mic input jack since I could do it easily in post:

http://www.singularsoftware.com/pluraleyes.html

The next camera I looked at was the Canon SD780. My buddy let me play with his for the afternoon and the image quality was fabulous! Better than the Vado's, in fact, and at $199 it was only $20 more, plus it did great still photography! The big feature I liked about the SD780 was that it was pocket-sized, about the size of an iPhone, so it could really go with you anywhere! However, I also realized that I usually have some sort of a bag (backpack or workbag or whatever) with me (with enough room for a camera and a small Gorillapod tripod), and my car was usually nearby and I always keep my stabilization kit in the trunk, so having it be pocket-sized wasn't a huge deal. I don't like to shoot handheld video at all, especially in HD, because it picks up the small shakes of your hands and looks amateur-ish, and your shots just look so much more professional with a tripod or a glidetrack or whatever you have handy to stabilize the footage.

The last camera I looked at was the Canon SX200. At $299, it was significantly more expensive, but also had a much better feature set for doing still photography. The two main features I liked about it was the 12x optical zoom lens (as opposed to the 3x on the SD780) and a pretty nice macro mode. The video quality is also a bit better than the SD780, although that wasn't a big deal since it's just a pocketcam. The things I did like for video mode was that you could do manual focus (for some basic depth-of-field stuff) and you could lock the exposure (auto-exposure is another thing that gives away amateur footage). Here's a great review of the video features on the SX200:

http://www.osnews.com/story/22106/Review_The_Video_Mode_on_the_Canon_SX200_IS/

Both Canon cameras can record 30 minute clips in h.264 format, which makes quick editing on both a Mac & PC easy. The VadoHD has 4 gigs of built-in memory and can hold about an hour of footage in the best-quality mode. The SX200 takes SDHC cards up to 32 gigs (be sure to get a fast Class 6 for video!) and uses a proprietary NB-5L battery. I don't like proprietary batteries; I prefer standard AA's or AAA's, but the NB-5L does reduce the size & weight of the camera, plus the knockoff batteries are cheap. I got a spare battery with a combo wall/car charger for $16 shipped from Amazon, plus they have generic-brand 2-packs of the batteries for about $12, so I'll have 4 batteries total, a spare wall charger, and a car adapter, which should get me through the day just fine ;)

Ultimately the SX200 was a bit more than I wanted to spend on a pocket camcorder, but since I was also getting a fabulous pocket camera with manual controls, a big optical zoom, and a nice macro mode out of it, I decided it was worth it. The size is also bigger than I'd like (I *really* liked the compactness of the SD780), but I've already got a small camera carrying case from my old A75, and I usually have a larger bag near me plus my car nearby, so having room for the camera, a small tripod, and some accessories wasn't a huge burden. If you don't need a big zoom (which, by the way, you can't use in video mode on the SX200 without hacking it with the CHDK software), macro mode, or basic manual focusing abilities, then I'd highly recommend the SD780 as an alternative to a pocketcam like the Flip, Vado, and Kodak. The quality is better, plus you get a real pocket-sized camera that also does stills.

Canon SX200 Video Samples:

http://vimeo.com/4541103

http://vimeo.com/4692255

http://vimeo.com/4692106

http://vimeo.com/4709159

Mine shows up next week, so I'll post a review and some sample videos after playing with it for a few days. Boy am I excited :awe:
 

Kaido

Elite Member & Kitchen Overlord
Feb 14, 2004
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The Apitek PenCam Trio HD is available: (720p vid + photos + MP3 player + voice recorder)

http://www.aiptek.eu/index.php?option=com_product&task=view&productid=200&Itemid=389

Amazon has the silver one for $119:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002PK13CM/

The quality is pretty terrific & doesn't exhibit that weird frame "stutter" that some of the other pocketcams like the Zi8 does:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tmxHz8rMUBo&fmt=22

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11kptOuXtxs&fmt=22

It's not quite as good as the Kodak Zi8, but it's pretty close, cheaper, and smaller. VERY small.
 

Kaido

Elite Member & Kitchen Overlord
Feb 14, 2004
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The JVC Picsio is also now available:

http://camcorder.jvc.com/product.jsp?productId=PRD1205005&pathId=58

Goes for about $150. Does 1080p @ 30fps and 720p @ 60fps. 1080p on all these pocket cams is really subject to rolling stutter (the wobbly jello effect), but you can do slow-motion with the 720p @ 60fps by slowing it down in post, which is cool. Quality is pretty good & price is really nice. Just another one to throw in the ring :)
 

Kaido

Elite Member & Kitchen Overlord
Feb 14, 2004
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My Canon SX200 just arrived! Initial thoughts: (being critical here)

* Surface is slippery and hard to grip hand-held. Maybe that will change over time as I get finger grease on it, lol. Would have liked more texture on it, like a rubberized grip or something.

* LCD is huuuuge. Love the 3" size! Brightness is adjustable, which is nice.

* The pop-up flash is mechanically triggered - it pops out as soon as you turn the camera on, and manually retracts when you turn it off. It stays up, even if you have the flash off or if the flash doesn't fire. This annoys me, but I read about it beforehand so whatever.

* The lens is so heavy in relation to the body that it can't stand up on it's own. That's a bit of a bummer - it tilts forward even at full wide. Not a biggie since I'll be keeping a quick-release plate attached most of the time, which will let it stand on it's own as a mini-platform.

* The lens is huge, haha! It goes from being a ring to sticking out like three inches. Compact super-zoom, I love it!!

* The control wheel on the back is tiny. Not a big deal for keypresses, but for manual focus using the ring, you almost have to use your nails. I don't foresee myself doing any kind of cool depth-of-field shots with it now, which is a bummer. Not a dealbreaker, just kind of a nice feature I would have liked to be easier. Fortunately you can do fake DOF in After Effects, which looks pretty good.

* Macro is ridiculous - absolutely incredible. It has Macro and Super Macro. The manual says Super Macro doesn't work in Movie Mode, but if you switch the camera to manual mode while in Movie Mode and turn the dial down all the way (which takes awhile, since you're essentially using your fingernail to spin the tiny ring), you can get RIDICULOUSLY close. I have a wire here and I had to touch the wire to the glass on the camera for it to come in focus, that's how close the focus can get. Ama-za-zing!

* Has some really cool video features, B&W+Color - you select a color and it makes everything else black & white, without having to do that in post, real nifty. It's like a Pleasantville effect, right in the camera! Manual white balance in-camera is also super awesome.

* Can't zoom in Movie Movie (read about this before), but you can if you hack it with CHDK, which also adds Zebra and some RAW support, as well as some other neat stuff. Props for being hackable

* Just discovered while reading the manual - live output over Composite video output! Testing it in video mode and it works both while previewing & recording, SWEET! I can hook up a mini external battery-powered monitor to get a larger display if needed!

* Snapping away in AUTO mode is giving me some surprisingly good results! But I like the fact that I can switch to manual and do whatever I want. Negates the need to drag out the dSLR for a quick pic.

* Yup, not great low-light, fairly noisy. Not as bad as my previous Panasonic tho, that thing was horrible!

* IS works pretty well, I did a full zoom @ 12x with flash and it did a perfect shot, with nice DOF.

* Has an option to shoot Widescreen stills, which is super-awesome for doing slideshows with 720p video, as well as for putting on blogs that have a wide format.

* Only records in 30p, so no 60p for slow motion and no 24p for film-look. You can conform it to 24p in post, but it's not quite the same. But 30p is perfect for the web, so I'm happy.

Overall, this is definitely the camera I've been waiting for. Can't wait to go out and get some great test shots with it this week!
 
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Dasda

Senior member
Jan 9, 2010
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Can you reccomend me a camcorder? Im going to be buying one in April. I am buying it as a gift but I will be the one doing all the computer work (sister doesn't know anything about using a computer) thanks. BEst value for the buck. It will be used to record a newborn. Thanks. Please let me know if you need more info.
 

Kaido

Elite Member & Kitchen Overlord
Feb 14, 2004
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Can you reccomend me a camcorder? Im going to be buying one in April. I am buying it as a gift but I will be the one doing all the computer work (sister doesn't know anything about using a computer) thanks. BEst value for the buck. It will be used to record a newborn. Thanks. Please let me know if you need more info.

1. What is your budget?
2. What do you want to output to - Youtube, DVD movies, iPod?
3. What kind of computer do you have?
 

Dasda

Senior member
Jan 9, 2010
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1. What is your budget?
2. What do you want to output to - Youtube, DVD movies, iPod?
3. What kind of computer do you have?


1. I would like it to be around $500-700 ( Best value, If a few bucks gets me a lot more performance then I'm all on spending the money for it. On the other hand if a cheaper one gets me same performance then I'm good for it too). I just dont know what I should even be looking for since I have never owned any sort of video camera.

2. I will not be outputting baby videos on youtube or iPod. It will be used to burn on DVD's and store on computer HDD.

3. Current computer is a Pentium4 1.5ghz. It is pretty much useless. However, I am currently working on a new build around the i5-750 with a mid range p55 board. The GPU will probably be a entry level ATI Radeon depending on when I build. (4350 or 5340-the ones coming out soon).


Extra information after reading thread. I do not plan to use the video recording device 24/7 but would hate it when I need to record and know that I can only record a 20-30 min clip. It should allow me atleast record 1 hour of video without me having to go to a computer and clearing memory.

I will be purchasing the device in Canada. Preferably Future Shop because I can get a 15% discount there but if a better option is available somewhere else then I'm all for it.

Thanks for the help.

EDIT: Oh I will be purchasing this around end of March or start of April. So If there is something worth waiting for then I can do that too.
 

Kaido

Elite Member & Kitchen Overlord
Feb 14, 2004
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1. I would like it to be around $500-700 ( Best value, If a few bucks gets me a lot more performance then I'm all on spending the money for it. On the other hand if a cheaper one gets me same performance then I'm good for it too). I just dont know what I should even be looking for since I have never owned any sort of video camera.

If you bought today, I'd recommend the Canon HF-200 ($550). If you bought in March/April, I'd recommend the upcoming Canon VIXIA HF-M300 ($679). The big feature the HF-M300 adds is touch & track, where you can touch a person's face and it will auto-focus on them as they move around. Both would be awesome cameras. Just add some spare batteries, Class 6 memory cards (8gb or 16gb minimum), a small padded bag to carry everything, and a Gorillapod tripod, and that'd make a great kit for recording a newborn :)

As far as computers go, get something with a lot of RAM (4 to 8 gigs) and some big hard drives (1TB minimum). The quad-core chip will help tremendously. Sony Vegas is a really good editor on the PC side of things. Since this is your first camera, I'd highly recommend nailing down your workflow for shooting, editing, and exporting. Basically that means figuring out what you have to do for each of those processes. For shooting, learn the basics of the camera (white balance, autofocus, etc.) so you can get good, usable shots. For editing, decide which software editor you'll be using and start playing with it so you can get the hang of how to edit video. For exporting, do a few export tests with sample footage so that you know how to make a DVD movie and a computer file look good.

Workflow is really what throws most people off - they spend hundreds on a camera setup and then use it like twice because they don't know what to do with it after they shoot. If you can nail that down first, then doing projects like a birthday party will be really easy because you already know what to do! :)
 
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Dasda

Senior member
Jan 9, 2010
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If you bought today, I'd recommend the Canon HF-200 ($550). If you bought in March/April, I'd recommend the upcoming Canon VIXIA HF-M300 ($679). The big feature the HF-M300 adds is touch & track, where you can touch a person's face and it will auto-focus on them as they move around. Both would be awesome cameras. Just add some spare batteries, Class 6 memory cards (8gb or 16gb minimum), a small padded bag to carry everything, and a Gorillapod tripod, and that'd make a great kit for recording a newborn :)

As far as computers go, get something with a lot of RAM (4 to 8 gigs) and some big hard drives (1TB minimum). The quad-core chip will help tremendously. Sony Vegas is a really good editor on the PC side of things. Since this is your first camera, I'd highly recommend nailing down your workflow for shooting, editing, and exporting. Basically that means figuring out what you have to do for each of those processes. For shooting, learn the basics of the camera (white balance, autofocus, etc.) so you can get good, usable shots. For editing, decide which software editor you'll be using and start playing with it so you can get the hang of how to edit video. For exporting, do a few export tests with sample footage so that you know how to make a DVD movie and a computer file look good.

Workflow is really what throws most people off - they spend hundreds on a camera setup and then use it like twice because they don't know what to do with it after they shoot. If you can nail that down first, then doing projects like a birthday party will be really easy because you already know what to do! :)

You have any major retailers selling that cannon hf-200 for $550? I can only find it for $799. Major retailers are good to deal if any issues down the road.

http://www.bestbuy.ca/catalog/prodde...08&catid=20048

http://www.futureshop.ca/catalog/pro...0124021&catid=

For computers, yes I'll be getting atleast 4 gig DDR3 ram if i get the 1156 socket i5-750 or 6 gigs of ram if i get the 1366 socket i7-920. And I have started reading some tutorials on video editing for me to get a hang of it.

I am going to be getting a camcorder that is recommended to me by people here but for learning purposes, what specs should I be looking for when judging a camcorder?

Thanks
 

Kaido

Elite Member & Kitchen Overlord
Feb 14, 2004
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You have any major retailers selling that cannon hf-200 for $550? I can only find it for $799. Major retailers are good to deal if any issues down the road.

...

For computers, yes I'll be getting atleast 4 gig DDR3 ram if i get the 1156 socket i5-750 or 6 gigs of ram if i get the 1366 socket i7-920. And I have started reading some tutorials on video editing for me to get a hang of it.

I am going to be getting a camcorder that is recommended to me by people here but for learning purposes, what specs should I be looking for when judging a camcorder?

Thanks

Well, I'm in the US, so a lot of retailers carry them, at least at their online stores. In Canada the pricing will be different, I'd imagine.

As far as camera specs, it really depends on what you want to do with it. The most basic type of HD camcorder is a pocketcam or point & shoot camera that also does video, but you lose some features of the bigger brothers like better image quality, better inputs & outputs, bigger zooms, and so on and so forth. I typically recommend Canon camcorders, but here's a fun Sanyo to look at:

http://us.sanyo.com/Dual-Cameras/VPC-HD2000ABK-Full-1080p-HD-Video-and-8MP-Digital-Photos

The best way to learn is to read a lot of specs on modern, in-stock camcorders and to watch a lot of footage on Youtube and Vimeo to get a feel for what you like. Like spend 20 or 30 minutes a day just browsing clips of different cameras - after a few weeks, you'll have a pretty good idea of how the different camera footage compares to each other, which is really the acid test for buying a camera - how it looks to you.
 

Kaido

Elite Member & Kitchen Overlord
Feb 14, 2004
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It looks like I'll be using Sony Vegas at work with an AVCHD cam, so I'll report back on the details of using a PC for editing as soon as that project starts (should be no later than March, I'd imagine).

Wiki is just about finished, I'll revise the OP and link to it and the blog when it's ready to go :)
 

Kaido

Elite Member & Kitchen Overlord
Feb 14, 2004
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Got the SX200 film-look workflow down pretty well, that will be added to the Wiki this month as well! :D
 

maali

Junior Member
Feb 1, 2010
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Which one is the best handheld camcorder (720p) for a $500 budget?
 
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Kaido

Elite Member & Kitchen Overlord
Feb 14, 2004
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Which one is the best handheld camcorder (720p) for a $500 budget?
smiley8.gif

You can actually get 1080p on a $500 budget. I'm really liking this Sanyo camcorder lately:

http://www.amazon.com/Sanyo-VPC-HD20.../dp/B002Q4VBT2

The next step up is the Canon HF200, which runs about $550:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...sh_Memory.html
 

Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
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Hi Kaido,

Have scanned the thread, and would appreciate your input on a camcorder purchase. I intend to use it for capturing family home movies. Will probably post some 30 sec highlight clips to Facebook on occasion, but our main intent is to archive them on hard disk, and when we have enough movies in a particular category, burn them to DVDs for watching on our big screen. I don't see us using the camcorder very frequently. Just key events like holidays, birthday parties, family gatherings, vacations etc. Intend to film both indoor and outdoor. Want a camera that captures to an adequate level of quality for viewing on a big screen tv. Other features are for the camera to be light and relatively compact.

I converted my parents' old VHS tapes to DVD a few years ago, so I am reasonably familiar with using video editing software. I didn't go much fancier than throw a navigation screen at the front end of the DVD, and inserted music here and there.

My wife has a Mac G4 and you can see my system specs at the bottom of my post. Both of our systems are somewhat behind the tech curve, although we will probably upgrade both within the next two years. I can always add hard drive space, so not concerned about having enough capacity to store videos. More concerned that neither of our computers are powerful enough to edit HD video from some of the newer generation camcorders.

That being said, I have hit all the major review sites, and I am thinking that the Canon HF200 hits the price/performance sweet spot for us. Do you agree, or would you recommend another model?
 

Kaido

Elite Member & Kitchen Overlord
Feb 14, 2004
48,414
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Hi Kaido,

Have scanned the thread, and would appreciate your input on a camcorder purchase. I intend to use it for capturing family home movies. Will probably post some 30 sec highlight clips to Facebook on occasion, but our main intent is to archive them on hard disk, and when we have enough movies in a particular category, burn them to DVDs for watching on our big screen. I don't see us using the camcorder very frequently. Just key events like holidays, birthday parties, family gatherings, vacations etc. Intend to film both indoor and outdoor. Want a camera that captures to an adequate level of quality for viewing on a big screen tv. Other features are for the camera to be light and relatively compact.

I converted my parents' old VHS tapes to DVD a few years ago, so I am reasonably familiar with using video editing software. I didn't go much fancier than throw a navigation screen at the front end of the DVD, and inserted music here and there.

My wife has a Mac G4 and you can see my system specs at the bottom of my post. Both of our systems are somewhat behind the tech curve, although we will probably upgrade both within the next two years. I can always add hard drive space, so not concerned about having enough capacity to store videos. More concerned that neither of our computers are powerful enough to edit HD video from some of the newer generation camcorders.

That being said, I have hit all the major review sites, and I am thinking that the Canon HF200 hits the price/performance sweet spot for us. Do you agree, or would you recommend another model?

The HF200 is pretty much my default recommend for an HD budget-oriented camcorder right now, if you can call it that. The quality is *outstanding* for under $600. There are some new camcorders coming out in April, here's an overview:

http://hv20.com/showpost.php?p=282809&postcount=9

One you might consider, if it fits within your budget, is the Canon VIXIA HF-M300 for $679. Similar to the HF200, but adds Touch & Track technology - you can touch somebody's face and it will autofocus as they/you move around, which is pretty insane.

The biggest "gotcha" with HD camcorders is the workflow issue. Shooting is easy, but editing & storage can be confusing. Macs do not like editing AVCHD footage natively, so you have to transcode (convert) it into something usable. As far as I know, you can't edit AVCHD natively on a PowerPC Mac. You can, however, use an app like VoltaicHD to convert it into something iMovie or Final Cut Express or whatever you like to use to edit video with likes:

http://www.shedworx.com/voltaichd

FlamingoHD is my new favorite toy - you can organize footage by thumbnail just like iPhoto:

http://www.shedworx.com/flamingohd

If transcoding is a headache for you, then you might want to look at an iFrame-compatible camera. Apple supports a standard called iFrame, which is higher-rez than DVD but not quite full HD, but it imports right into iMovie without having to transcode. The current beast is the Sanyo VPC-HD2000ABK camcorder:

http://us.sanyo.com:80/Dual-Cameras/VPC-HD2000ABK-Full-1080p-HD-Video-and-8MP-Digital-Photos

It looks funny but is pretty easy to hold one-handed and it's only $500:

http://www.amazon.com/Sanyo-VPC-HD20.../dp/B002Q4VBT2

The footage looks really great:

http://vimeo.com/7279220

If you want a super-easy option, then the HD2000A is a really great camera to look at. Record in iFrame mode, then just toss it into iMovie. Actually, now that I've typed all of this out, an iFrame-capable camera is probably actually a REALLY good idea - you could quickly put a movie on Facebook, for example, without having to do transcoding and all that jazz.
 

Kaido

Elite Member & Kitchen Overlord
Feb 14, 2004
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The wiki guide has really gotten out of hand. I'm going to have to turn it into a video - it's become about 10 pages of text, bleh!