K& N Filters

[imported_Shivetya]

Response from someone at work...


You guys read all this mumbo jumbo about air filters, but XXXXXXX and I
will blow by you on the interstate with my K&N filter and I will be
getting better gas mileage than the guy using the AC Delco filter
in the lane next to me. I will assume the responsibility of letting
22 micro size particles past my mass air flow sensor. The size
particles being allowed past the filter are easily digested by today's model
internal combustion engine with absolutely no damage so there is no real
need to restrict airflow dramatically as shown by the attached graphs.
These tests prove my point about the K&N filter, it is all in how you read
the data. The filter requirements of a person living off a dirt road in
rural South Georgia are considerably different than a driver that commutes
from Kennesaw to Galleria every day on city streets or does a lot of over
the highway driving. Over 90% of today's vehicles draw air from the high
inside of a fender as does the Duramax Diesel in this test. By the time the
intake air has reached the filter, most of the heavy, damaging particles
have fallen to the bottom of the air box due to their weight and path of
travel.

If you are looking to improve the volumetric efficiency of your intake
system, increase your fuel mileage, have a little more pep to your vehicle,
save on the cost of conventional filters over the life span of your vehicle,
and you don't live in the dust bowl, buy a high flow,washable airfilter for
yourself !

FYI If you don't like the oil type filter, there are high flow filters
available that run dry, for those of you who are worried about a little oil
on your mass air flow sensor. And for that occasional cleaning of the mass
air flow sensor, use NAPA MASS AIR FLOW SENSOR CLEANER, and follow the
directions.

 

[mwmorph]

Originally posted by: Shivetya
Response from someone at work...


You guys read all this mumbo jumbo about air filters, but XXXXXXX and I
will blow by you on the interstate with my K&N filter and I will be
getting better gas mileage than the guy using the AC Delco filter
in the lane next to me. I will assume the responsibility of letting
22 micro size particles past my mass air flow sensor. The size
particles being allowed past the filter are easily digested by today's model
internal combustion engine with absolutely no damage so there is no real
need to restrict airflow dramatically as shown by the attached graphs.
These tests prove my point about the K&N filter, it is all in how you read
the data. The filter requirements of a person living off a dirt road in
rural South Georgia are considerably different than a driver that commutes
from Kennesaw to Galleria every day on city streets or does a lot of over
the highway driving. Over 90% of today's vehicles draw air from the high
inside of a fender as does the Duramax Diesel in this test. By the time the
intake air has reached the filter, most of the heavy, damaging particles
have fallen to the bottom of the air box due to their weight and path of
travel.

If you are looking to improve the volumetric efficiency of your intake
system, increase your fuel mileage, have a little more pep to your vehicle,
save on the cost of conventional filters over the life span of your vehicle,
and you don't live in the dust bowl, buy a high flow,washable airfilter for
yourself !

FYI If you don't like the oil type filter, there are high flow filters
available that run dry, for those of you who are worried about a little oil
on your mass air flow sensor. And for that occasional cleaning of the mass
air flow sensor, use NAPA MASS AIR FLOW SENSOR CLEANER, and follow the
directions.

Whoever said that swallowd the marketing bs hook, line and sinker. Either that or he hangs out with too many riceboys with no concept what really affects performance besides "mad tyte" shiny CAIs, 3-4" cat backs that decrease power, carbon fiber everywhere and wings/spoilers on the trunk of a FWD car.

You could remove all the piping and filtering in front of your MAF sensor and you'd only get a 2-3hp gain max on 98% of cars.

Fuel economy will never be affected by something as cheap and trivial as an air filter or opening up the intake for that matter.

And what's up with that "wont damage your engine" rethoric? If anything, due to tighter tolerances and all the precision engineering, smaller and smaller particles will be able to damage newer engines more and more.

As a auto-technician, the time honored saying, when in doubt, go oem, really never fails. OEM parts are usually of higher quality than most things in the aftermarket. Of course theres exceptions like Mobil 1 or Amsoil compared to whatever dino oil we get at the dealership, but as far as filters and parts, really, OEM usually is one of, if not the best options, and always a safe option.

 

[Apex]

Originally posted by: mwmorph

Originally posted by: Shivetya
Response from someone at work...


You guys read all this mumbo jumbo about air filters, but XXXXXXX and I
will blow by you on the interstate with my K&N filter and I will be
getting better gas mileage than the guy using the AC Delco filter
in the lane next to me. I will assume the responsibility of letting
22 micro size particles past my mass air flow sensor. The size
particles being allowed past the filter are easily digested by today's model
internal combustion engine with absolutely no damage so there is no real
need to restrict airflow dramatically as shown by the attached graphs.
These tests prove my point about the K&N filter, it is all in how you read
the data. The filter requirements of a person living off a dirt road in
rural South Georgia are considerably different than a driver that commutes
from Kennesaw to Galleria every day on city streets or does a lot of over
the highway driving. Over 90% of today's vehicles draw air from the high
inside of a fender as does the Duramax Diesel in this test. By the time the
intake air has reached the filter, most of the heavy, damaging particles
have fallen to the bottom of the air box due to their weight and path of
travel.

If you are looking to improve the volumetric efficiency of your intake
system, increase your fuel mileage, have a little more pep to your vehicle,
save on the cost of conventional filters over the life span of your vehicle,
and you don't live in the dust bowl, buy a high flow,washable airfilter for
yourself !

FYI If you don't like the oil type filter, there are high flow filters
available that run dry, for those of you who are worried about a little oil
on your mass air flow sensor. And for that occasional cleaning of the mass
air flow sensor, use NAPA MASS AIR FLOW SENSOR CLEANER, and follow the
directions.

Whoever said that swallowd the marketing bs hook, line and sinker. Either that or he hangs out with too many riceboys with no concept what really affects performance besides "mad tyte" shiny CAIs, 3-4" cat backs that decrease power, carbon fiber everywhere and wings/spoilers on the trunk of a FWD car.

You could remove all the piping and filtering in front of your MAF sensor and you'd only get a 2-3hp gain max on 98% of cars.

Fuel economy will never be affected by something as cheap and trivial as an air filter or opening up the intake for that matter.

And what's up with that "wont damage your engine" rethoric? If anything, due to tighter tolerances and all the precision engineering, smaller and smaller particles will be able to damage newer engines more and more.

As a auto-technician, the time honored saying, when in doubt, go oem, really never fails. OEM parts are usually of higher quality than most things in the aftermarket. Of course theres exceptions like Mobil 1 or Amsoil compared to whatever dino oil we get at the dealership, but as far as filters and parts, really, OEM usually is one of, if not the best options, and always a safe option.

I'd definitely agree with this.

The vast majority of cars won't see more than a couple hp difference with changes to the air filter. Yes, there are cars here and there that will be different, but that's probably few and far between. I've seen a 9hp peak gain (but a gain averaging 5-6hp over a few thousand RPM) on a modern normally aspirated engine with a simple filter switch (OEM paper-type to BMC cloth-type). Some turbocharged vehicles may see a bit more.

In terms of engine damage, much of the wear really depends on your oil. That's what really catches and stores the contaminants. Regular oil changes and the use of good oil (and filter) will help alleviate some of the damage that may be caused by a more open element air filter.

 

[chucky2]

Originally posted by: sindows
Sorry for bringing this topic off track a bit but I'm not handy with cars and seeing this thread today, I decided to take a look at my air filter. Its ~3 years old and I don't think its been changed once so needless to say, it looked pretty disgusting. However when I flipped the filter over, I noticed two yellow/goldish lines going from right-left when you view it horizontally. What are those? They looked like some sort of liquid/oil that someone squeezed out of a tube...

Also, what brand filter should I get? I'm not looking for performance filters and the car is an '04 with a ubiquitous Ford 4.6 V8 FYI.

Go to your local NAPA and get a NAPA Gold air filter...it's a rebadged Wix. Drop it in and call it a day.

Chuck

 

[chucky2]

Lets digest this piece by piece:

Originally posted by: Shivetya
Response from someone at work...


You guys read all this mumbo jumbo about air filters, but XXXXXXX and I
will blow by you on the interstate with my K&N filter and I will be
getting better gas mileage than the guy using the AC Delco filter
in the lane next to me.

I wasn't aware that running a K&N would allow someone to "blow by" me on the interstate just because I'm running a stock filter. I can already see how well K&N marketing works on people...

I will assume the responsibility of letting
22 micro size particles past my mass air flow sensor. The size
particles being allowed past the filter are easily digested by today's model
internal combustion engine with absolutely no damage so there is no real
need to restrict airflow dramatically as shown by the attached graphs.

Wow, quite a claim there. What you're saying about today's model ICE is that for some reason they can digest dirt better than engines of yesteryear, which given the vastly improved manufacturing tolerances in today's ICE's makes absolutely no sense. Cruising on over to BITOG UOA forum, the common - by not absolute - trend for folks running K&N type filters is increased Silicon readings (usally a dead giveaway) with elevated wear numbers, particularly Chromium (rings), Iron (cylinder walls, rotating masses), and Aluminum (pistons). These people that then replace their K&N, change their oil, within one oil change have lower Si numbers, and lower wear. Granted, it'd take a long while for the engine to become prematurely worn running a K&N, but for most people who value longevity and greatest sustained performance (gas mileage and power), any undue wear is too much. After running a K&N for 100k, and the engine has sucked down 100k worth of grit, how well do you think your rings will be doing then? Dirt ingested is sandpaper - you determine the grit - in the engine. How much grit is worth the l337 "blow by" on the highway?

These tests prove my point about the K&N filter, it is all in how you read
the data. The filter requirements of a person living off a dirt road in
rural South Georgia are considerably different than a driver that commutes
from Kennesaw to Galleria every day on city streets or does a lot of over
the highway driving. Over 90% of today's vehicles draw air from the high
inside of a fender as does the Duramax Diesel in this test. By the time the
intake air has reached the filter, most of the heavy, damaging particles
have fallen to the bottom of the air box due to their weight and path of
travel.

You just proved yourself wrong there. Given that most air inlets are high and inside the fender, exactly how much more flow do you think the K&N is going to have vs. the paper? The K&N had approx. 2x less restriction (not that your engine can do anything with 2x as much air unless you've made major modifications) than the Baldwin, but that was on the test machine. The test machine is not stuck inside your engine bay inside the fender. Even worse, a huge number of K&N implementations are a cone type filter sitting inside the engine bay. Guess what! The engine bay is hot! So while you're sitting there at the light waiting to "blow" my doors off as I'm ignoring you, your engine is sucking in nice hotter air than if you were running with a stock setup. All the while your ECU is trimming the engine for the hotter air inlet temp (hint, it's not trimmed for greater power there). Then as you take off for 0 reason to the surprise of everyone, your ECU after a certain period finally adjusts back to settings that don't have to account for the 30 or so degree rise in air inlet temperature you had when sitting at the light. So it's good that your doing your "blowing by" on the highway, since that's about the only time you'll see a - minor, if any - performance gain.

If you are looking to improve the volumetric efficiency of your intake
system, increase your fuel mileage, have a little more pep to your vehicle,
save on the cost of conventional filters over the life span of your vehicle,
and you don't live in the dust bowl, buy a high flow,washable airfilter for
yourself !

Prove it. Oh wait, you can't, because if all that was true, every OEM would be running a K&N to improve their fleet mpg numbers.

FYI If you don't like the oil type filter, there are high flow filters
available that run dry, for those of you who are worried about a little oil
on your mass air flow sensor. And for that occasional cleaning of the mass
air flow sensor, use NAPA MASS AIR FLOW SENSOR CLEANER, and follow the
directions.

The italicized in your above was literally the only useful or true thing you posted.

Chuck

 

[Pacfanweb]

Originally posted by: Shivetya
Response from someone at work...


You guys read all this mumbo jumbo about air filters, but XXXXXXX and I
will blow by you on the interstate with my K&N filter and I will be
getting better gas mileage than the guy using the AC Delco filter
in the lane next to me. I will assume the responsibility of letting
22 micro size particles past my mass air flow sensor. The size
particles being allowed past the filter are easily digested by today's model
internal combustion engine with absolutely no damage so there is no real
need to restrict airflow dramatically as shown by the attached graphs.
These tests prove my point about the K&N filter, it is all in how you read
the data. The filter requirements of a person living off a dirt road in
rural South Georgia are considerably different than a driver that commutes
from Kennesaw to Galleria every day on city streets or does a lot of over
the highway driving. Over 90% of today's vehicles draw air from the high
inside of a fender as does the Duramax Diesel in this test. By the time the
intake air has reached the filter, most of the heavy, damaging particles
have fallen to the bottom of the air box due to their weight and path of
travel.

If you are looking to improve the volumetric efficiency of your intake
system, increase your fuel mileage, have a little more pep to your vehicle,
save on the cost of conventional filters over the life span of your vehicle,
and you don't live in the dust bowl, buy a high flow,washable airfilter for
yourself !

FYI If you don't like the oil type filter, there are high flow filters
available that run dry, for those of you who are worried about a little oil
on your mass air flow sensor. And for that occasional cleaning of the mass
air flow sensor, use NAPA MASS AIR FLOW SENSOR CLEANER, and follow the
directions.

Tell your friend he is full of it, and to come back when he actually knows what he's talking about and can do something other than read internet reports on K&N filters.
Fact: A stock filter can flow more than a stock or mildly modified engine can suck in.
Fact: A stock filter is FAR superior in filtration to any oil-soaked filter.
Fact: A stock engine will get ZERO change in MPG or power from a K&N filter.

Yes, that data shows a K&N flows better than a stock Delco filter. But what it doesn't show you is, the stock filter still flows more than necessary for the engine to run at peak efficiency.

Add this the initial cost of a K&N....$40 or more for the filter, you have to buy the oil too, plus time to clean it....for no gain. Just not worth it at all. Complete waste of money.

So unless you have some turbo/supercharged monstrosity of an engine, you are much better off sticking with a factory air filter.

 

[sindows]

Well to update, I did change out my 2+ year old air filter and i must say that although I don't notice any extra power, I did get the classic v8 loopy idle back

 

[Throckmorton]

Originally posted by: sindows
Well to update, I did change out my 2+ year old air filter and i must say that although I don't notice any extra power, I did get the classic v8 loopy idle back

Why did you buy it after people on here told you it lets more dirt through?

 

[sindows]

Originally posted by: Throckmorton

Originally posted by: sindows
Well to update, I did change out my 2+ year old air filter and i must say that although I don't notice any extra power, I did get the classic v8 loopy idle back

Why did you buy it after people on here told you it lets more dirt through?

I'm not the OP, I just had a 2-3 year air filter and everyone told me to change it
I got a $11.xx one from carquest...

I do notice that my car feels torquer but honestly, it feels like it accelerates slower now

 

[Pacfanweb]

Originally posted by: sindows

I do notice that my car feels torquer but honestly, it feels like it accelerates slower now

Yeah, I'm confused too.

 

[thecoolnessrune]

Originally posted by: Pale Rider

Originally posted by: SVT Cobra

Originally posted by: Pale Rider
They aren't worth it at all IMO. Unless you are going to get a bigger MAF and throttle body the extra air won't do much. It's like opening your mouth wider in an attempt to get more food down your throat - your throat is only so big and can only move so much food at once - regardless of how big you open your mouth.

Well actually the throttle body usually is not the problem. But, great analogy.


Also Pale Rider...Are you a member of the apache squadron? And, have you ever played DF2?

Must be another PR.

I love DF2

 

[chucky2]

Originally posted by: sindows

Originally posted by: Throckmorton

Originally posted by: sindows
Well to update, I did change out my 2+ year old air filter and i must say that although I don't notice any extra power, I did get the classic v8 loopy idle back

Why did you buy it after people on here told you it lets more dirt through?

I'm not the OP, I just had a 2-3 year air filter and everyone told me to change it
I got a $11.xx one from carquest...

I do notice that my car feels torquer but honestly, it feels like it accelerates slower now

Try disconnecting the battery for a while, keying the car to the On position (the place it sits after you start it), and hit the brake a few times. Then shut it of and sit a little while longer. That ought to kill any reserve capacitence in the system and force the ECU to reset and relearn.

Chuck

 

[Apex]

Though not a K&N brand filter, here's a dyno graph of a how a drop in BMC oiled cloth filter changed the hp & torque curves on my wife's baby-hauler:

Dyno Graph

The blue lines are before, purple lines are after the filter change. HP scale is identical to torque scale (sorry, printer was running out of ink).

Dyno was run on same car, same day (within 45 min: cooldown, run, filter change, cooldown, run), same conditions. Chart shows numbers at the wheel on near stock engine.

As you can see, though peak HP remained relatively constant, there was a nice bump in hp & torque through much of the powerband. The gain was magnitudes bigger than the margin of error on a DynoDynamics dyno.

Realistically, I think there's no real hard & fast rule will apply to all situations. Some cars will show gains from more free flowing filters, others will probably show no gain or even slight losses. Worth the tradeoffs? Depends on the application and the owner.

 

[mwmorph]

Originally posted by: Apex
Though not a K&N brand filter, here's a dyno graph of a how a drop in BMC oiled cloth filter changed the hp & torque curves on my wife's baby-hauler:

Dyno Graph

The blue lines are before, purple lines are after the filter change. HP scale is identical to torque scale (sorry, printer was running out of ink).

Dyno was run on same car, same day (within 45 min: cooldown, run, filter change, cooldown, run), same conditions. Chart shows numbers at the wheel on near stock engine.

As you can see, though peak HP remained relatively constant, there was a nice bump in hp & torque through much of the powerband. The gain was magnitudes bigger than the margin of error on a DynoDynamics dyno.

Realistically, I think there's no real hard & fast rule will apply to all situations. Some cars will show gains from more free flowing filters, others will probably show no gain or even slight losses. Worth the tradeoffs? Depends on the application and the owner.

What does your wife haul babies in that makes 330+WHP and 420+WTQ?

 

[Pacfanweb]

Originally posted by: Apex
Though not a K&N brand filter, here's a dyno graph of a how a drop in BMC oiled cloth filter changed the hp & torque curves on my wife's baby-hauler:

Dyno Graph

The blue lines are before, purple lines are after the filter change. HP scale is identical to torque scale (sorry, printer was running out of ink).

Dyno was run on same car, same day (within 45 min: cooldown, run, filter change, cooldown, run), same conditions. Chart shows numbers at the wheel on near stock engine.

As you can see, though peak HP remained relatively constant, there was a nice bump in hp & torque through much of the powerband. The gain was magnitudes bigger than the margin of error on a DynoDynamics dyno.

That graph doesn't even make any sense at least not for the argument that the filter made any difference. If a filter WAS going to make a difference, it'd be in the upper rpm ranges, not at low rpm. Your biggest "gains" in that graph are all at low rpm.
That looks to be simply just the difference in your power level 45 minutes later. An engine won't have the exact same power all the time, on every dyno run, even if they're only 45 minutes apart. Plenty can change in that amount of time...barometer, temp, etc.
I bet if you waited another 45 minutes and changed nothing, you'd have a slightly different curve than either of those.

And regardless, the "gains" are so minimal that it wouldn't be worth passing the extra dirt through the engine.

 

[Apex]

Originally posted by: Pacfanweb

Originally posted by: Apex
Though not a K&N brand filter, here's a dyno graph of a how a drop in BMC oiled cloth filter changed the hp & torque curves on my wife's baby-hauler:

Dyno Graph

The blue lines are before, purple lines are after the filter change. HP scale is identical to torque scale (sorry, printer was running out of ink).

Dyno was run on same car, same day (within 45 min: cooldown, run, filter change, cooldown, run), same conditions. Chart shows numbers at the wheel on near stock engine.

As you can see, though peak HP remained relatively constant, there was a nice bump in hp & torque through much of the powerband. The gain was magnitudes bigger than the margin of error on a DynoDynamics dyno.

That graph doesn't even make any sense at least not for the argument that the filter made any difference. If a filter WAS going to make a difference, it'd be in the upper rpm ranges, not at low rpm. Your biggest "gains" in that graph are all at low rpm.
That looks to be simply just the difference in your power level 45 minutes later. An engine won't have the exact same power all the time, on every dyno run, even if they're only 45 minutes apart. Plenty can change in that amount of time...barometer, temp, etc.
I bet if you waited another 45 minutes and changed nothing, you'd have a slightly different curve than either of those.

And regardless, the "gains" are so minimal that it wouldn't be worth passing the extra dirt through the engine.

Dyno graphs of modifications to modern vehicles rarely make the kind of logical sense we would guess because the ECU is often making adjustments. However, multiple runs were made (a total of over 15 pulls that day) and those gains stayed pretty consistant.

In terms of the gains being minimal, it again really comes down to the application and owner. For most people that things like this would be worthwhile, a drop in filter is part of an overall modification plan. For instance, with this one, it was part of a small ram-air application (which hid behind the front grills). Here are the additive gains:

http://raceprecision.com/images/bmw/m5_dynotest2.jpg

Together, they made a peak gain of over 25 hp & torque to the wheels (around 30 to the crank) on a pretty tuned (from factory) normally aspirated application that traditionally responds relatively poorly to mods.

Is over 25 hp & torque to the wheels worthwhile? Again, it depends on the owner and application. And also, there will be applications that gain more than this, just as there are applications that will gain less, none, or even lose power.

How much dirt is being let in? Well, only the oil test can say for sure. You can bet I have my eye on the silicon, chromium, and aluminum numbers. So far so good though.



In terms of oiled filters, not all of them are bad at filtering. The True Flow is actually really good. I've seen their demonstration equipment and have felt the difference in the let-through of their filters, the OEM-type paper, and K&N. They are clearly superior to both. It's an interesting product, though I wish they had a wider application list.

http://www.trueflow.com/product.wvx