K-12 Student Database Spooks Parents

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DrPizza

Administrator Elite Member Goat Whisperer
Mar 5, 2001
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without standardized testing in general, how do you determine how effective teachers are?

I don't have an issue with standardized testing. But, how do you determine a teacher's effectiveness based on that?

Regardless, standardized tests are fine with me. Companies making millions upon millions of dollars producing what's essentially a sham is not.
 

Fayd

Diamond Member
Jun 28, 2001
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I don't have an issue with standardized testing. But, how do you determine a teacher's effectiveness based on that?

Regardless, standardized tests are fine with me. Companies making millions upon millions of dollars producing what's essentially a sham is not.

classroom performance in general, compared to rest of school, compared to rest of state/US on standardized test.

develop a system to counsel underperforming teachers, and fire severely underperforming teachers.

my aunt is a union rep for one of the large teachers unions in california. it disgusts me to hear her whine about how teachers get the short end of the stick. to her her defend the ridiculous lengths the union goes to to make sure that no teachers ever get fired, barring criminal action (and in some cases, even despite of criminal action)
 

kamikazekyle

Senior member
Feb 23, 2007
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I wonder how much PII is getting shared with the companies? According to examples in the article, it looks like at least as much as names, personal preferences, and academic performance. Certainly pretty fine-grained versus "this school has a 30% hispanic population which averages 84 out of 100 on the math portion of SOLs."

An individual's name, grades, school, age, and race are bits of potentially PII by themselves, but depending on how they're used, context, and combination, they aren't necessarily personally identifiable. If you know someone's name is John Smith and he's a male, that's not PII because John Smith is a common male name. But it *is* PII if someone's name is uncommon and essentially unique in a given application or context. Saying John Smith who is at Central school might or might not be PII (are there more than one John Smith? Is it a teacher, student, staff?). Combine that further with John Smith, age 16, at Central school and it turns out there's only one John Smith aged 16 there, then that's PII because you can use it to personally identify John Smith in that context.

Actually, come to think of it, would PII laws apply to those under 18? I don't know -- all my training is dealing with adult PII. The Department of Education seems OK with distributing at least some student information with private companies depending on what's stipulated in the school-company contract. Though if they have rules/laws against additional distribution of PII, I dunno. And the example given in the article would fall under PII, I think.

In any case, the concept of a cohesive standardized database tracking critical student information and academic performance is one thing, but tracking things like preferences, hobbies, non-school related activities...that's a bit much. Selling that information is even worse.

Besides, all these companies are chomping at the bit by indicating they'll deliver personalized learning experiences to each student. This indicates some sort of regular access by the student to individual interactive multimedia: computers, tablets, etc. A lot of schools struggle to keep a decent computer lab big enough for one class at a time that students might get to visit once a week -- if that -- let alone something like an iPad plus apps for every student. Maybe the companies are going to provide some sort of incentive, such as providing the hardware for free but requiring bulk licensing of their apps? *shrug*

Ignoring the PII and finance issues, such personalized learning experiences would be great and could do a lot for education. I just don't know how to get from standardized to personalized of that level without sharing significant levels of personal information. That's the nature of personalized things, is it not? My girlfriend, who is a kindergarten teacher, has to do a lot of personalized instruction for each student. But it's by a licensed teacher under strict laws and constant administrative observation, not a company with a big database of information constrained only by a loosely worded contract.

Usual disclaimers: IANAL, all names/locations/ages fictional and any bearing to persons or places -- living/in use or dead/destroyed -- purely coincidental. Etc., etc., etc.
 

Murloc

Diamond Member
Jun 24, 2008
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Imo, that should be done by individual analysis by administrators, and other teachers in the school. If a particular teacher is turning out idiots, they need to readjust, or get fired. Some kids will get failed by that system, but it's better than all the students getting failed by the current system.

Whenever deciding on an appropriate course of action, I always fall back on the notion that strong central authorities are bad. Over and over centralizing power has proven to be detrimental to the whole. Problems don't get fixed, and failures get spread to everyone, instead of being isolated. Everything is better decentralized.
this. In my country states are very small and they have experts who go and follow teacher lessons sometimes to check how they're doing, and probably evaluate their statistics too, but there is no absolute test, except for the final tests and one done in middle school (which are used for statistics and not everyone does).
I mean, you can have control without going all communist/bureaucratic on it.

On the question: if the data is anonymized before being given out, no problem.
 

BrokenVisage

Lifer
Jan 29, 2005
24,771
14
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Usual disclaimers: IANAL

Dudddde I ANAL too! High 5! :p

(I never let that acronym go without a snarky comment, never)

Seriously though, some things regarding kids at school need more attention than Sandy Hook, this is one of them because it's systematic, apparently legal, and yet still obviously a violation of trust.
 
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Exterous

Super Moderator
Jun 20, 2006
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Interesting. At first I thought 'Private Entities' was a loophole for the database to be shared with private schools but I see that is not the case by design. I think this gives far too much information and control to the administration. Given recent trends in poor policies (see: poptart gun suspensions) there will be people who mishandle this. I would go for a system where the information is scrubbed of personal data before leaving the district and make that a requirement - not something that is up to administrators. The shared database gets trend information to go off of and can send recommendations down to the school that student A37612 is at risk for dropping out and the following actions have been shown to help and are ranked by percentile effectiveness. The district could then match up A37612 with Sally McAnyperson and apply the actions as they see fit

classroom performance in general, compared to rest of school, compared to rest of state/US on standardized test.

Sure - Its not like we have any problems that could cause low test scores other than teacher performance. Certainly no schools with attendance problems that would affect scores in ways outside a teacher's control and in variance to the state or district. What about budget differences state and nation wide? What about the SES of your students? Are you going to punish a teacher who goes to work in the inner city which has lower scores than the suburbs? If not, how do you determine the weighting? What happens when your school becomes a school of choice and you get a sudden influx of very low performing students? What about differences in department budgeting and resources? What about a teacher with a higher than normal concentration of students needing an accommodation? What about a teacher that gets a higher number of ESL students? Or a teacher given a more difficult class because the admins know she would be the best teacher for them and that results in a lower than average score but a score the admin knows would be higher than if anyone else taught them?

I'm not saying grading teacher performance can't be done but it is a very convoluted process that needs to be carefully thought through. There are enough problems with our education system without scaring teachers off from districts that need quality teachers to help them (which we already do to a fairly significant extent)
 
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Nintendesert

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2010
7,761
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classroom performance in general, compared to rest of school, compared to rest of state/US on standardized test.

develop a system to counsel underperforming teachers, and fire severely underperforming teachers.

my aunt is a union rep for one of the large teachers unions in california. it disgusts me to hear her whine about how teachers get the short end of the stick. to her her defend the ridiculous lengths the union goes to to make sure that no teachers ever get fired, barring criminal action (and in some cases, even despite of criminal action)



I used to think that way until I met my wife and some of the trash parents send to schools today. Excuse me, I mean kids. She taught the 3rd grade and had over half her students showing up reading at pre-Kinder grade level. Depending on the rules for the State these kids can't be held back either.

Sorry, but until we're going to charge parents with child abuse/neglect and force parents to be parents nothing we do to teachers will fix the problems of these kids. Parents are the biggest problem with education and the only fix.
 

waggy

No Lifer
Dec 14, 2000
68,143
10
81
I used to think that way until I met my wife and some of the trash parents send to schools today. Excuse me, I mean kids. She taught the 3rd grade and had over half her students showing up reading at pre-Kinder grade level. Depending on the rules for the State these kids can't be held back either.

Sorry, but until we're going to charge parents with child abuse/neglect and force parents to be parents nothing we do to teachers will fix the problems of these kids. Parents are the biggest problem with education and the only fix.

whoa..3rd grade reading at pre-k levels? wtf

i live in the country. My kids go to a poor and very small school (100 kids from K-8th grade). BUT they get one hell of a education. my son is in 1st grade and reads at a 3rd grade level.

on state testing my daughter scored 98th in state and 93rd in nation AND she was norm for her class!

I think smaller schools and how they teach (none of the new math, or other bullshit) helps.
 

lxskllr

No Lifer
Nov 30, 2004
60,000
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I think smaller schools and how they teach (none of the new math, or other bullshit) helps.

How many ghetto rats do you have in your school. none? A lot of school problems are idiot parents, sending idiot kids, who align with other idiots at school, and disrupt everyone else, and destroy the infrastructure. Everyone's quick to blame the teachers, or throw money at a problem, but it'll never work when you're dealing with idiots.
 

actuarial

Platinum Member
Jan 22, 2009
2,814
0
71
I used to think that way until I met my wife and some of the trash parents send to schools today. Excuse me, I mean kids. She taught the 3rd grade and had over half her students showing up reading at pre-Kinder grade level. Depending on the rules for the State these kids can't be held back either.

Sorry, but until we're going to charge parents with child abuse/neglect and force parents to be parents nothing we do to teachers will fix the problems of these kids. Parents are the biggest problem with education and the only fix.

Doesn't 'reading at pre-kinder level' just mean can't read at all?
 

Sho'Nuff

Diamond Member
Jul 12, 2007
6,211
121
106
From the [
One
Anyone have a problem with your local public school administrators giving your child's personally identifible data to a private company?

Two
Anyone surprised that the Federal Government condones this data sharing?

Three
Anyone think that something could go wrong here?

Hell yes I have a problem with it. There a very few justifiable reasons why the federal government should be collecting this data, and none of them in my mind have ANYTHING to do with private companies.

This is serious bullshit. Social Security numbers are pretty goddamn important. People used to disclose them only when necessary. Now it seems that anyone "promising" not to do anything improper with them can get that information from the government. F that. People need to grow some balls in this country and stand up against government "disservice." It is government by the people, for the people. Not government by the shills, for the corporations.

That said, I am not surprised that the government condones this kind of sharing. The federal government for many years now has been taking every opportunity to encroach on the personal privacy and liberty of its citizens, with no justification other than that it (allegedly) "can" and because there are a few lowly sops who supposedly "need" its help. That is not the government I or anyone else wants or needs (whether you disagree does not change the truth of that statement). Nor is it the government that the founding fathers intentioned. In fact, it is precisely the OPPOSITE of what the founding fathers wanted. The American revolution was against a tyrannical British government that imposed itself too much on the liberty of the american colonists, after all. Amazing how many people forget that.

And hell freaking yes there is something that could go wrong. It doesn't take a damn rocket scientist to understand that storing ridiculous amounts of our childrens private information in a single database is a bad idea. It just screams "target" for a hacker/malware attack.
 
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Sho'Nuff

Diamond Member
Jul 12, 2007
6,211
121
106
without standardized testing in general, how do you determine how effective teachers are?

How about a review system based on actual observation of a teacher in the classroom environment, as opposed to simply a review of a delta in test scores?

Standardized tests for the purpose of teacher evaluation are fundamentally flawed because they presume that all kids have equal learning ability, and the only variable is the ability of the teacher.
 

Red Squirrel

No Lifer
May 24, 2003
70,546
13,796
126
www.anyf.ca
Wow it's bad enough that companies like Google are doing this, but now schools too? Some laws seriously need to be put into place to stop this nonsense of selling people's info like that.
 

MaxPayne63

Senior member
Dec 19, 2011
682
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How about a review system based on actual observation of a teacher in the classroom environment, as opposed to simply a review of a delta in test scores?

Standardized tests for the purpose of teacher evaluation are fundamentally flawed because they presume that all kids have equal learning ability, and the only variable is the ability of the teacher.

No they don't. It's utterly trivial to adjust standardized scores for how the rest of the school is doing, or record the number of children in a class with a disability and adjust for that. Or even just look at the individual students' test scores over time and see if there are any outliers.

There are a thousand different things you can do with standardized scores other than fire any teacher who gets below a certain point. That's just propaganda by unions who don't want americans to realize the education budget is really just a slush fund.
 

Nintendesert

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2010
7,761
5
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whoa..3rd grade reading at pre-k levels? wtf

i live in the country. My kids go to a poor and very small school (100 kids from K-8th grade). BUT they get one hell of a education. my son is in 1st grade and reads at a 3rd grade level.

on state testing my daughter scored 98th in state and 93rd in nation AND she was norm for her class!

I think smaller schools and how they teach (none of the new math, or other bullshit) helps.


Yeah, WTF indeed. It opened my eyes and changed my views of teachers and the education system.


Doesn't 'reading at pre-kinder level' just mean can't read at all?


Some of the kids couldn't even identify the letters of the alphabet. :eek:


She had 20something kids and I think she said 4 or 5 were reading at their grade level.

Kids showing up to school not being able to even recognize the letters of the alphabet is simply child abuse.
 

Stone Rain

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Feb 25, 2013
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This is a terrible idea. I definitely object to this kind of data storage/spreading around.

Is the data removed if the kid leaves the school or is it kept for life?
 

Fayd

Diamond Member
Jun 28, 2001
7,970
2
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www.manwhoring.com
Sure - Its not like we have any problems that could cause low test scores other than teacher performance. Certainly no schools with attendance problems that would affect scores in ways outside a teacher's control and in variance to the state or district. What about budget differences state and nation wide? What about the SES of your students? Are you going to punish a teacher who goes to work in the inner city which has lower scores than the suburbs? If not, how do you determine the weighting?
weighting always happens after you look at data. several of the things you mention are why i suggested comparing within-school. though i suppose we should also add within-district, and within-prevailing-socioeconomic-background.

What happens when your school becomes a school of choice and you get a sudden influx of very low performing students? What about differences in department budgeting and resources? What about a teacher with a higher than normal concentration of students needing an accommodation? What about a teacher that gets a higher number of ESL students? Or a teacher given a more difficult class because the admins know she would be the best teacher for them and that results in a lower than average score but a score the admin knows would be higher than if anyone else taught them?

I'm not saying grading teacher performance can't be done but it is a very convoluted process that needs to be carefully thought through. There are enough problems with our education system without scaring teachers off from districts that need quality teachers to help them (which we already do to a fairly significant extent)

my suggestion was not to fire a teacher without thought or evaluation as to why scores are low. but i'm pretty sure with data, one could come up with a statistically significant metric one could use to pinpoint teachers to further analyze on a case-by-case basis.