Justifying the liberal perspective on social programs...

busmaster11

Platinum Member
Mar 4, 2000
2,875
0
0
This may be my very limited perspective on all this:

When it comes to the need to be personally accountable for what an individual should be accountable for - namely acknowledging responsibility for one and one's children's proper social upbringing and to be a contributor, not a liability to society, you'll find no stronger supporter than I, and believe it or not, I would venture that you'll find at least as many liberals who agree as conservatives.

I find myself offering little sympathy for those who perpetuate reliance on gov handouts and use their ethnicity or social background as an excuse, or those who drink, snort, or gamble their way into poverty.

The problem I see is this. My parents and I immigrated from the PRC 22 years ago, when I was 4. They were already in their 40s, and were not able to learn English very well. To this day my semi-retired father is making 7-8$ an hour and my mom is making 4. I'm making a good salary now but during the first couple years we were in this country, we were on food stamps. I don't know that I would be here today if it weren't for government social programs.

If I had to pick, I'd say I was religiously(Christian) and morally conservative, and socially liberal. Republicans don't reflect that in my opinion - the party originates from a very questionable and borderline racist history and their brand of conservatism hints of that white Prostestant constituency.

The point is, due to those suspicions and a general mistrust of Republicans, - every now and then one of them flashes their true colors, ala Trent Lott - I fear that those deserving and those not deserving, would be grouped together and marginalized.
 

desy

Diamond Member
Jan 13, 2000
5,409
189
106
If you believe society is judged by how you treat the least amongst you, then you should feel this way.
Compassion is a quality of which some do not place enough empahsis on.
It doesn't mean you have to give away the farm, but in society of which there is soooo much wealth and luck plays a factor in life why not?
Life doesn't have to be fair and isn't but if you have the resources to do so. If we can reward sport stars and actors with kingly lifestyles why not leg up the truely unfortunate? I've needed UI for a short period in my life 15 years ago.
There are abuses sure but if you look at the actual numbers of fraudulent claims its no worse than the Enrons\Worldcoms\Martha Stewarts screwing the world over. OJ can buy justice many can't. . .
One of the reasons I don't always vote party lines is I truley look at the candidate who is there to represent me and not just toe party line.
I've voted all over the political map because of this, I've voted change too, even if my candidate is in I think sitting in power too long makes any party too comfortable. As a taxpayer voting is our only recourse to gov't corruption. Companies becoming to large lethargic and decadant. . . fail.
Gov'ts will generate new taxing authorities instead of doing the right things and part of it is our fault .
When you attain a certain lifestyle and budget forces gov't to claw back levels of service who is usually the first to scream?
No matter what is done, seems almost always impossible to become undone even bad or poor decisions.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
I've always thought they should have to WORK for benefit unless totally disabled, but social programs are a nessesary "insurance" IMO.

The people reciveing it need to relize work is good for the soul, would keep thier community clean, and an idle mind gets into trouble.

However I would increase welfare payments considerably, perhaps double per family, and make vochers available to all children for private, religious or any schooling they want.

Combined with scrubbing graffiti, self administered child care, and other work programs the inner citys and trailor parks would didappear as we know them. And the "entitlment" mentality would disappear.


 

heartsurgeon

Diamond Member
Aug 18, 2001
4,260
0
0
party originates from a very questionable and borderline racist history
the party of lincoln (R) freed the slaves

you need to get your facts right before you start smearing organizations
your buddy trent lott started out as a democrat..we never liked him anyhow
you buddy Sen. Robert "Sheets" Byrd (D) may have lynched foreigners as a head honcho in the KKK

please....
 

busmaster11

Platinum Member
Mar 4, 2000
2,875
0
0
Originally posted by: heartsurgeon
party originates from a very questionable and borderline racist history
the party of lincoln (R) freed the slaves

you need to get your facts right before you start smearing organizations
your buddy trent lott started out as a democrat..we never liked him anyhow
you buddy Sen. Robert "Sheets" Byrd (D) may have lynched foreigners as a head honcho in the KKK

please....
Freed the slaves. Right... It's come full circle, hasn't it?

Tell that to your beloved former chairman, Mr. Barbour, who put the confederate in Neo-con...

http://www.burntorangereport.com/archives/000646.html
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: Zebo
I've always thought they should have to WORK for benefit unless totally disabled, but social programs are a nessesary "insurance" IMO.

The people reciveing it need to relize work is good for the soul, would keep thier community clean, and an idle mind gets into trouble.

However I would increase welfare payments considerably, perhaps double per family, and make vochers available to all children for private, religious or any schooling they want.

Combined with scrubbing graffiti, self administered child care, and other work programs the inner citys and trailor parks would didappear as we know them. And the "entitlment" mentality would disappear.
I think that is just a great idea. I never liked the idea of handouts, but I surely dont mind helping people get back on their feet.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,676
136
Yeh, a lot of southern Republicans started out as Dems, prior to the civil rights movement of the 60's. Then they switched parties, adopted a form of covert racism-

http://www.commondreams.org/views03/1229-06.htm

Or just google up "Nixon coded racism" to get a better feel for it all...

They don't wear sheets, but they do carry on about states rights, welfare queens, big government and gun grabbers...
 

dirtboy

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
6,745
1
81
I have nothing wrong with people getting aide from social programs, so long as they actually deserve it. It is the people that lie and cheat to get on the program that are part of the problem.

I would like to see a system that forces people to spend their money on certain things. For example, having a certain percentage of the money that must be spent on food. Rather than dole out food stamps, I'd rather see a store credit system where a person must buy food and not be able to cash the money out to buy drugs or other items that the money was not intended to purchase.
 

MonstaThrilla

Golden Member
Sep 16, 2000
1,652
0
0
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: dirtboy
Originally posted by: heartsurgeon
party originates from a very questionable and borderline racist history
the party of lincoln (R) freed the slaves
Although I find it ironic that Lincoln himself had slaves.
WTF??? LOL! That's news to me!
Yeah. I don't think he over owned a farm (he was a lawyer before politician), so I doubt he ever owned slaves. I could be wrong though. Its usually brought up that Jefferson owned slaves despite his contradictory words in the Declaration of Independence.
 

busmaster11

Platinum Member
Mar 4, 2000
2,875
0
0
Originally posted by: Jhhnn
Yeh, a lot of southern Republicans started out as Dems, prior to the civil rights movement of the 60's. Then they switched parties, adopted a form of covert racism-

http://www.commondreams.org/views03/1229-06.htm

Or just google up "Nixon coded racism" to get a better feel for it all...

They don't wear sheets, but they do carry on about states rights, welfare queens, big government and gun grabbers...
Thanks for articulating what all of us but Heartsurgeon already kinda know.
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: MonstaThrilla
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: dirtboy
Originally posted by: heartsurgeon
party originates from a very questionable and borderline racist history
the party of lincoln (R) freed the slaves
Although I find it ironic that Lincoln himself had slaves.
WTF??? LOL! That's news to me!
Yeah. I don't think he over owned a farm (he was a lawyer before politician), so I doubt he ever owned slaves. I could be wrong though. Its usually brought up that Jefferson owned slaves despite his contradictory words in the Declaration of Independence.
Lincoln personally never owned slaves but his wife's family did.

CkG
 

dirtboy

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
6,745
1
81
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Originally posted by: MonstaThrilla
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: dirtboy
Originally posted by: heartsurgeon
party originates from a very questionable and borderline racist history
the party of lincoln (R) freed the slaves
Although I find it ironic that Lincoln himself had slaves.
WTF??? LOL! That's news to me!
Yeah. I don't think he over owned a farm (he was a lawyer before politician), so I doubt he ever owned slaves. I could be wrong though. Its usually brought up that Jefferson owned slaves despite his contradictory words in the Declaration of Independence.
Lincoln personally never owned slaves but his wife's family did.
Interesting. I do believe he had slaves at Montecito.

[edit]

I did a speech on this in my poli sci class a long time ago. For some reason another prof showed up that day and when I left class my prof and the visiting prof stopped me to say that I was indeed right (I was saying Lincoln was a hypocrit) and it was something neither of them had realized he was.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,676
136
Time for a quick history refresher, dirtboy- Jefferson owned slaves at monticello. Lincoln was an Illinois Yankee- which never was a slave state, iirc...
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: dirtboy
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Originally posted by: MonstaThrilla
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: dirtboy
Originally posted by: heartsurgeon
party originates from a very questionable and borderline racist history
the party of lincoln (R) freed the slaves
Although I find it ironic that Lincoln himself had slaves.
WTF??? LOL! That's news to me!
Yeah. I don't think he over owned a farm (he was a lawyer before politician), so I doubt he ever owned slaves. I could be wrong though. Its usually brought up that Jefferson owned slaves despite his contradictory words in the Declaration of Independence.
Lincoln personally never owned slaves but his wife's family did.
Interesting. I do believe he had slaves at Montecito.

[edit]

I did a speech on this in my poli sci class a long time ago. For some reason another prof showed up that day and when I left class my prof and the visiting prof stopped me to say that I was indeed right (I was saying Lincoln was a hypocrit) and it was something neither of them had realized he was.
From what I remember Lincoln was never proven to own slaves. I know this has been a contention of some but no one has ever shown me conclusive historical proof that HE(Lincoln) ever owned slaves.

Please share your info if true. I don't really care one way or another but I've never been shown the "proof" people claim there is.

CkG
 

dirtboy

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
6,745
1
81
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
From what I remember Lincoln was never proven to own slaves. I know this has been a contention of some but no one has ever shown me conclusive historical proof that HE(Lincoln) ever owned slaves.

Please share your info if true. I don't really care one way or another but I've never been shown the "proof" people claim there is.

CkG
I wish I remember where I got that from, but the class I took was over 6 years ago. I must have confused myself with Jefferson. I said Montecito, but that's the name of the new subdevelopment I'm moving into. I meant Monticello, but that would be Jefferson and not Lincoln.

So that was 6 years ago and I'm not going to spend any time doing any research. Right or wrong, it doesn't matter that much to me.
 

heartsurgeon

Diamond Member
Aug 18, 2001
4,260
0
0
I said Montecito, but that's the name of the new subdevelopment I'm moving into. I meant Monticello, but that would be Jefferson and not Lincoln.
so much weed, so little time....
these are the people that are going to run our country when we get old CkG....doesn't that make you wanna die young?
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,872
4,216
126
Originally posted by: heartsurgeon
party originates from a very questionable and borderline racist history
the party of lincoln (R) freed the slaves

you need to get your facts right before you start smearing organizations
your buddy trent lott started out as a democrat..we never liked him anyhow
you buddy Sen. Robert "Sheets" Byrd (D) may have lynched foreigners as a head honcho in the KKK

please....
The LIBERAL party of the LIBERAL Lincoln freed the slaves from the very CONSERVATIVE slaveholders. What they were then and what they are now (R's) are very different.
 

SuperTool

Lifer
Jan 25, 2000
14,000
2
0
The current so called conservatives in power are trying their best to figure out how to waste more taxpayer money.
Social programs are necessary in our capitalist system.
They are like the oil pan in the engine, the oil that's not being used at the moment sits in the pan. But get rid of the pan and the whole engine dies.
Same thing with people. For our economic system to operate efficiently, it needs to have a place to put the people who currently aren't utilized so they can be used later. The alternative is universal lifetime employment, which is not very efficient.
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: heartsurgeon
I said Montecito, but that's the name of the new subdevelopment I'm moving into. I meant Monticello, but that would be Jefferson and not Lincoln.
so much weed, so little time....
these are the people that are going to run our country when we get old CkG....doesn't that make you wanna die young?
Maybe if we threw more money at the educational system it would prevent these sort of things, no? Maybe dirtboy didn't "pass" his civics or history tests but was passed anyway when his school/state lowered the standards so kids wouldn't "feel" like failures.

CkG

PS - dirtboy - this isn't about you specifically, but I couldn't pass up the opportunity to hit the current school system and the thinking tied to it. Need a :beer::D ?
 

tm37

Lifer
Jan 24, 2001
12,436
1
0
I have never heard any conclusive evidence that Lincoln owened slaved.

But Lincoln did not run for president on an abolishonist platform. He was a colonist.

He was all for freeing the slaves, and then "shipping them home"
 

Bigdude

Golden Member
Oct 9, 1999
1,087
0
0
It is immoral for the government to take my money, and give it away for foodstamps, medicare, social security, section 8, or any other programs.
 

ASK THE COMMUNITY