Justice department launches new investigations of GWB era torture policy.

[Ozoned]

Originally posted by: LunarRay
TLC said
"The strength involved in making that decision pales in comparison to having to live with whatever decision you make."

Now ain't that the truth...

I raised my grandkids... and now have a 2 yr old greatgranddaughter... who calls me Gumpster... She's learning to say Grumpster... hehehehhehe She ran in here to say hi to me while I was reading a post... or I should say reading my most previous post.. about the seesaw going up and down... In that instant I knew what I'd have done... I've no doubt now... Mr. Al Q would have divulged what he knew... dam his rights... or the legality of it all... he's conspiring to kill, if not my, someone's kids, grandkids or great grand kids...
With that anger in mind I'd have violated any law to save the lives of Americans... Sorry.. but that is what it is all about... And although I love the law... America and what it stands for... Lives are worth more than rights...

Now, did the GWB Administration intend to save American lives, or did they intend to torture?

 

[LunarRay]

Originally posted by: Ozoned

Originally posted by: LunarRay
TLC said
"The strength involved in making that decision pales in comparison to having to live with whatever decision you make."

Now ain't that the truth...

I raised my grandkids... and now have a 2 yr old greatgranddaughter... who calls me Gumpster... She's learning to say Grumpster... hehehehhehe She ran in here to say hi to me while I was reading a post... or I should say reading my most previous post.. about the seesaw going up and down... In that instant I knew what I'd have done... I've no doubt now... Mr. Al Q would have divulged what he knew... dam his rights... or the legality of it all... he's conspiring to kill, if not my, someone's kids, grandkids or great grand kids...
With that anger in mind I'd have violated any law to save the lives of Americans... Sorry.. but that is what it is all about... And although I love the law... America and what it stands for... Lives are worth more than rights...

Now, did the GWB Administration intend to save American lives, or did they intend to torture?

I'll answer that this way..... If they violated the law while trying to save lives they should be prosecuted with the punishment mitigated by the facts, if any that show mitigating conditions.

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally posted by: LunarRay
TLC said
"The strength involved in making that decision pales in comparison to having to live with whatever decision you make."

Now ain't that the truth...

I raised my grandkids... and now have a 2 yr old greatgranddaughter... who calls me Gumpster... She's learning to say Grumpster... hehehehhehe She ran in here to say hi to me while I was reading a post... or I should say reading my most previous post.. about the seesaw going up and down... In that instant I knew what I'd have done... I've no doubt now... Mr. Al Q would have divulged what he knew... dam his rights... or the legality of it all... he's conspiring to kill, if not my, someone's kids, grandkids or great grand kids...
With that anger in mind I'd have violated any law to save the lives of Americans... Sorry.. but that is what it is all about... And although I love the law... America and what it stands for... Lives are worth more than rights...

Can't claim I'd do the same. Hard to say though. Situation often dictates decisions and situations involving snap decisions that may or may not save American lives might require circumstances that skirt the law.

Then again, everyone wants adherence to the law...except for all those laws they don't agree with.

 

[LunarRay]

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Originally posted by: LunarRay
TLC said
"The strength involved in making that decision pales in comparison to having to live with whatever decision you make."

Now ain't that the truth...

I raised my grandkids... and now have a 2 yr old greatgranddaughter... who calls me Gumpster... She's learning to say Grumpster... hehehehhehe She ran in here to say hi to me while I was reading a post... or I should say reading my most previous post.. about the seesaw going up and down... In that instant I knew what I'd have done... I've no doubt now... Mr. Al Q would have divulged what he knew... dam his rights... or the legality of it all... he's conspiring to kill, if not my, someone's kids, grandkids or great grand kids...
With that anger in mind I'd have violated any law to save the lives of Americans... Sorry.. but that is what it is all about... And although I love the law... America and what it stands for... Lives are worth more than rights...

Can't claim I'd do the same. Hard to say though. Situation often dictates decisions and situations involving snap decisions that may or may not save American lives might require circumstances that skirt the law.

Then again, everyone wants adherence to the law...except for all those laws they don't agree with.

Well, TLC remember in my hypothetical I KNEW Mr. Al Q. had information that would save lives... so what flows from that are my expected actions, the law being the rules we ought to play by... but, again... 3000 lives vs 1 enemy persons rights... seems a no brainer to me.
I don't know what goes through the mind of the person who dives on a grenade that results in saved lives... no idea at all.. reaction mostly I guess... reflex to what they thought about or admired in some other input... like a movie they saw..
A contemplative action, however, is much different... perhaps the same lives saved... but no self sacrifice of life... In our little trauma ward here (Gitmo) we have folks trying to do what it takes to save lives... Trying to insure legitimacy to the event by the appropriate means. They did not want to be seen to violate the law... and they found a way to do that.
There exists Plausable Denial in this 'way' they provided. I acknowledge that... But, in so doing, if they did do wrong they lost my respect for the act of saving lives by trying to save their own...

EDIT: I've no idea who MAY have done wrong so it is one of those cases where we have to see who the shoe fits... and some of these folks have built in foot disguises... they are the sharpest of sharp minds that get to be in those positions... I've never seen a dumb cluck Attorney General... or staff..

 

[GarfieldtheCat]

Originally posted by: LunarRay

Originally posted by: Ozoned

Originally posted by: LunarRay
TLC said
"The strength involved in making that decision pales in comparison to having to live with whatever decision you make."

Now ain't that the truth...

I raised my grandkids... and now have a 2 yr old greatgranddaughter... who calls me Gumpster... She's learning to say Grumpster... hehehehhehe She ran in here to say hi to me while I was reading a post... or I should say reading my most previous post.. about the seesaw going up and down... In that instant I knew what I'd have done... I've no doubt now... Mr. Al Q would have divulged what he knew... dam his rights... or the legality of it all... he's conspiring to kill, if not my, someone's kids, grandkids or great grand kids...
With that anger in mind I'd have violated any law to save the lives of Americans... Sorry.. but that is what it is all about... And although I love the law... America and what it stands for... Lives are worth more than rights...

Now, did the GWB Administration intend to save American lives, or did they intend to torture?

I'll answer that this way..... If they violated the law while trying to save lives they should be prosecuted with the punishment mitigated by the facts, if any that show mitigating conditions.

There are at least three big problems with this thinking:

1. You are assuming the "ticking time bomb" scenario on a specific person. This is false. We have been interrogating/torturing lots of people over a period of months and years. We are not talking about one or isolated instances. We are talking about a government policy to torture any and all people they capture/kidnap. Apples and oranges. To torture someone for years, even if they have information, it is long out of date.

2. What do you do when you torture someone for information, and find out you have the wrong guy? Apologize and say sorry? Lock him up forever since he is now pissed at you? There are plenty of references where we have basically kidnapped people thinking they were someone else, and only realized it months later. What do you do?

3. So why aren't you supporting immediate torture of all suspected kidnappers and the like to "save lives". Why aren't you letting the police work over all suspects in a missing persons case to get information? See what happens when you just decide the law doesn't apply?

 

[Craig234]

Originally posted by: LunarRay

Originally posted by: Craig234

Originally posted by: LunarRay
Ya.. know... I've thought a lot about what I'd do if I knew that a certain Al Q guy in my custody had info that could save the lives of 3000 or 2000 or even 2 American lives. I wrestled with the law and what is right and to believe in our American values and came away from that thinking that IF I had that potential confronting me that I'd have to act on it...
I reconciled that he was the enemy trying to kill Americans in a war... a conflict with real guns and where people die... It didn't matter at that point how it all began but, rather, that it was real and now.

I'd have gotten the very best minds on interrogation and techniques and employed them what ever they were. Then I'd have asked if I violated that persons rights... and if so... oh well... I did it..
I hope that I'll never be in that position but if I were... I'd do what I could to save lives first and hope that mitigated what would be my struggle with what is right and wrong...

IF only the others who may have felt the same way would fess up... I would understand... I would hate the sin... but forgive the sinner...

It's too bad most people don't put such thought into how to avoid the wars in the first place - who they vote for, the policies they support.

That's the easy part - vote for 'the guy you want to have a beer with', at leas the one you think you would based on the manufactured image by the media team.

And then the guy you vote for, always telling you you did the right thing, follows an agenda that might put you in the position of deciding whether to torture someone.

The point to this reply isn't to say what I think of the conclusion you reached - one which is understandable. But now put yourself in the captured guy's shoes, too.

How many wars have we fought where the guys on each side have a lot more in common than they do with the leaders who put them there for the usual reasons of greed.

Maybe it was a President who thought we'd like half of Mexico, or maybe it was corporations telling the President they'd like a ruler put out, or maybe Cheney's oil policy.

Or maybe it was when you are fighitng to get out from under a greedy king, like Geore Washington, who ordered that prisoners not be tortured for infomration.

I have been in the 'other' (reference to the bold above) guys shoes regarding the idealism but not captured bit but knew some who were... going to someone's homeland and helping destroy his home... his family, his dreams and all the rest of it. I believed in the going and was incredibly upset at the tactics employed against our guys... they were the enemy... why don't they just die... How could they torture our guys.. animals they were. Then I grew up... and stuff became more colored... less black and white.. What I say today is not what I'd say back when... not hardly.

That's a heck of a post. It has a lesson we should try to teach all soldiers.

I'd not want them to torture my guys today and would consider their actions crimes... but still I'd do what I said I'd do cuz this is all illusion... I'm not in a position of power.. or under threat of torture.. (except the reading of some posts.. kiddin) but sittin here in my chair I can say anything... I'd hope I'd do the right thing if I was sitting in the chair of power... but who knows..

And that's a problem, that people will judge 'the enemy' but not their own mission so much.