Just watched John Q.. do hospitals really do that? Let people die for money???

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freegeeks

Diamond Member
May 7, 2001
5,460
1
81
Ok lets look at some other numbers.
the us has a population of about 290 Million and 40Million do not have insurance.
This means that 87% of the population can afford insurance. This seems to be quite affordable for most.

So who are these 40% that cannot afford insurance.
There are a lot of 20something year olds that feel they dont need insurance.
There are people that are between jobs and for a short time cant afford it.
Then there are the poor that usually get some sort of help for healthcare.


But lets also talk about realitys, very few in the US go without medical care. People here are able to pick up the phone and call an ambulace to come pick them and take them to the emergency so they can get some free antifungal cream for their feet.

There are a lot of 20something year olds that feel they dont need insurance.
or can not afford it

There are people that are between jobs and for a short time cant afford it.
well let's hope that nothing happens on the medical front when they are between jobs because they are pretty much f***d (i don't understand why you are using this one because you are saying yourself that they don't have insurance

Then there are the poor that usually get some sort of help for healthcare.
well you obviously did not read the links from BaliBabyDoc and myself. A lot of research has been done to compare the effect of being poor and healthcare. And guess what? there is a huge link between being poor and healthcare. That's why the USA has the worst infant mortality rate of all industrialized countries, has the worst death rate of 1-to-4 year olds, the worst death rate of 15-to-24 year olds, the highest rate of premature death of all industrialized countries ...

But lets also talk about realitys, very few in the US go without medical care. People here are able to pick up the phone and call an ambulace to come pick them and take them to the emergency so they can get some free antifungal cream for their feet.
your reality is obviously not based on any hard data, mine is

please enlighten me with some links and data so that I can learn something

Thx








 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
There are a lot of 20something year olds that feel they dont need insurance.
or can not afford it

Yes there are probably a few 20 year olds that cant afford health insurance, but there is a large number where health insurance is just not a concern.


There are people that are between jobs and for a short time cant afford it.
well let's hope that nothing happens on the medical front when they are between jobs because they are pretty much f***d (i don't understand why you are using this one because you are saying yourself that they don't have insurance

If uninsured joe goes into the emergency room with a broken arm or a bursting appendix he will taken care of.
If uninsured joe gets hit by a bus, he will get a nice helocopter ride to the hospital and be taken care of.
Payment plans will be worked out after the fact.


Then there are the poor that usually get some sort of help for healthcare.
well you obviously did not read the links from BaliBabyDoc and myself. A lot of research has been done to compare the effect of being poor and healthcare. And guess what? there is a huge link between being poor and healthcare. That's why the USA has the worst infant mortality rate of all industrialized countries, has the worst death rate of 1-to-4 year olds, the worst death rate of 15-to-24 year olds, the highest rate of premature death of all industrialized countries ...

Infant mortality rates are higher in the US, Slightly higher.
Life expectancy are about the same for the countries linkage


But lets also talk about realitys, very few in the US go without medical care. People here are able to pick up the phone and call an ambulace to come pick them and take them to the emergency so they can get some free antifungal cream for their feet.
your reality is obviously not based on any hard data, mine is

please enlighten me with some links and data so that I can learn something
By law abulance drivers cannot refuse service to people calling them. Feel free to pick up the phone and call any emergency room for details.

 

PlatinumGold

Lifer
Aug 11, 2000
23,168
0
71
If they are doctors yes... that's what being a doctor is about. Doctoring. not making money, not paying off debt, it's about doctoring. Obviously as indicated by your and Amused post money plays a greater role than patient care.... can't either of you see how incorrect that is?

Perhaps the fault of this is in the training of doctors and how expensive that is... perhaps it's in a judicial system that makes it so freaking easy to sue someone for acting correctly... whatever the case... Since the beginning of the profession the intention was to put the patient, those in need of care first. Not money.... not.... money.

Apparently you only read a small part of my posts. one of the things i very clearly stated was that in our economic system UNFORTUNATELY it isn't the skill as a doctor that determines the success of that doctor but his ability to manage money. apparently you just completely ignored that part of it. matter of fact, amused one and i were debating exactly that point. duh.
 

BaliBabyDoc

Lifer
Jan 20, 2001
10,737
0
0
But lets also talk about realitys, very few in the US go without medical care. People here are able to pick up the phone and call an ambulace to come pick them and take them to the emergency so they can get some free antifungal cream for their feet.

Let me guess that's what you call wit . . .

Back to school:

Elderly get care under Medicare (praise to RM Nixon) which has greatly enhanced the quality and quantity of life for those over 65. It is also the single entity most responsible for the inflation of healthcare costs from its inception in 1966 to the early 90s. It is responsible for the training (residency) for almost ALL graduates of US medical schools and foreign medical grads who seek training in the US. So the dermatologist that can't see you til next year and the orthopedic surgeon that doesn't know which leg to operate on were both trained on YOUR money through reimbursement teaching facilities get for caring for Medicare patients, direct medical education payments, and indirect medical education payments. The wonderful administration of Medicare is a maze of BS and bureaucracy designed to catch cheats but it just raises the costs of care while providing lower reimbursements. Many doctors are no longer taking Medicare patients which means . . . drum roll please . . . only people with the ability to pay fee-for-service will get care.

Really poor citizens are covered under Medicaid. States hate Medicaid b/c it is the epitome of poorly funded mandate. Many states have raced to the bottom to provide fewer services for this population. Many providers have jumped this ship b/c Medicaid reimbursement is even more dismal than Medicare.

If your company has a good insurance plan you are lucky. Most companies have reduced the choices in plans and/or reduced their contribution to premiums. In NC, most state employees saw their premium increase 10-15% while wages were either frozen (which is a reduction even with mild inflation) or meagerly increased. Regardless, it's a pay cut and they get the double whammy of fewer services for more money.

Well-off are essentially self-insured.

Then a large swath of America is in the position of making too little to afford healthcare and too much to qualify for Medicaid. States make applying for Medicaid onerous to reduce utilization. The Compassionate Conservative went so far as to order such engineering to keep TX's CHIP (Childrens' Health Insurance Program) to keep enrollment down.

A gangerenous digit or limb has to be amputated, failing kidneys require transplants, and obesity drives a myriad of cardiovascular diseases with expensive treatments. True healthcare REDUCES disease burden in the population. People are healthier and the costs are REDUCED for EVERYONE.

As it stands now, HMOs are negotiating contracts with hospitals that actually require lower reimbursements. In response, hospitals are charging patients without health insurance MORE for the same care. The typically honorable American will pay whatever they can. Most are not taking advantage of the system for free care. For the ER cheerleaders, I want YOU to spend some time in the typical American ER and see if you consider it an appropriate portal of entry for anything described as good healthcare.

 

tcsenter

Lifer
Sep 7, 2001
18,949
575
126
If you use 2001 AOA status (Medical Honor Society) was a proxy then the top pay should go to . . . Dermatologist 32%, Orthopedics 26%, followed by General Surgery 16% the next 8 medical classifications are within several % points including Internal Medicine at 15%. The above is slightly misleading b/c several specialties participate in a separate application service than ERAS.
You cannot extrapolate from either of your sources how 'difficult' a residency program is to enter nor how 'rare' a particular specialty is RELATIVE TO DEMAND. Your argument is classic non-sequitur - what follows cannot possibly come logically or soundly from what came before.

Again, free market principles dictate that whoever possesses the rarest skills relevant to DEMAND gets the highest wages. We can agree that the fact you don't personally agree a particular specialist's skills SHOULD be the most demanded because you don't personally believe they are as valuable is irrelevant. You have 'the way things are' on one hand, and then there is 'the way BabyDoc believes things should be' on the other. When you can separate the two, life gets much easier and your positions become more sound.
Most elite pediatricians and IM doctors spend more than 3 years as residents typically as Chief Residents and/or subspecialty training. Which means 4 years of medical school, 3 years of primary residency, 1-3 years in subspecialty fellowship and/or chief resident for a total of 8-10 years not the misleading 3 year residency you post.
Sure, just as we understand that your "elite" pediatrician and IM specialist still only matches the training of the 'average' neurosurgeon and orthopod. I'm sure you can find some "elite" family practice physicians who have an inordinate and unusual amount of training, too. I like your caveat..."elite". haha
Well documented you say. Well let's see it buddy. Only peer-reviewed journal articles or a review based on such info need apply...AHRQ (government clearinghouse for information on healthcare)
NOT ONE study or paper you cited can credibly conclude that minorities are somehow receiving a 'different standard' of care, BECAUSE they're minorities, in the discriminatory sense you assert. The issue is one of poverty, not race.

The disparity in survival rates, cancer rates, heart disease, and other factors is well known and SOLELY attributed to the explanations I've already noted:

Minorities are typically poorer, have less health care insurance, are more ignorant about health matters, less compliant with medical advice, have lifestyles that involve excessive smoking, drinking, and diets laden with animal fats, not to mention the rampant and disproportional drug abuse and criminality among minority populations which undeniably skews the morbidity and mortality statistics higher than whites.

This is the SOLE cause of our high infant mortality rates - drug addicted mothers - not women who merely do not get 'enough' prenatal care because they cannot afford it. When you're addicted to crack and heroin, you don't give a rat's ass about prenatal care and will not seek it even if it were free...and there is PLENTY of federal and state funding aimed at providing prenatal care for poor women, much of it goes unutilized for this reason. There isn't a women in the United States who does not receive adequate prenatal care because she can not afford it - period.

You're dealing with someone who worked for years exclusively in high minority, low income areas, at not-for-profit hospitals which service a disproportionate number of uninsured or indigent people. The ignorance among this population is nothing short of astounding, stupifying ignorance and misconceptions about health matters in general and the rate of non-compliance with medical advice is notorious. Ask any nurse or ER physician. I've had this conversation many times with BLACK DOCTORS who completely agree with me.

This is a population of people where conspiracy theories abound like the belief AIDS was created by the government to keep the black man down.

This is a population of people who are "too poor" to afford a doctor's office fee so they use the Emergency Room as a substitute, while they some how came up with the money for the $600 full-length leather coat, $100 for custom nails, $150 hair salon appointments, $300 leather boots or basketball shoes, two pagers, and the cellular phone they are sporting in the ER waiting room, to speak nothing of the $6000 in wheels, tires, stereo equipment and alarm system they have on the Olds Cutlass they drove in to the ER parking lot!

It is true that minorities cannot afford to access health care to the same extent as whites. The barriers to accessing quality health care are IDENTICAL for poor whites as they are for poor blacks - cost.

In addition, there are undeniable cultural differences which exacerbate this disparity in health, as well. Cultural differences which dictate to them that it is "reasonable" to own a $50,000 automobile while living in a house that is in nearly condemnable condition, appointed with Big Screen TV's and leather furniture they "got on credit" at Rent-A-Center, closets full of expensive fashions...but they "can't afford" to see a doctor or to pay $100 for a prescription.

You may be able to fool a lot of people who probably never saw a black person unless it was on TV by throwing out 'studies' but you ain't going to fool me, son. I've been to the ghetto, many many times, in places I wouldn't have been safe to go without someone from that neighborhood accompanying me. I know how these people live and where their priorities are, its the most disfunctional thing I've ever witnessed.

People with money can afford to seek care more often and have more options because they are able to pay for it, black or white, people without money cannot afford to seek care as often and have fewer options, black or white. What is the 'revelation' here?
 

mithrandir2001

Diamond Member
May 1, 2001
6,545
1
0
Hollywood liberal sensationalist flick.

And if their version of our hospital system were true, then wouldn't you do whatever you could to make sure you weren't poor? Stay in school, quit slacking off, get off of the streets, get a job.
 

Pooteh

Senior member
Aug 12, 2002
503
0
0

health care is not normal capitalism. you don't pay directly for what you get, your insurance company does. unlike consumer goods like tvs and stuff, the price doesn't dramatically go down through time and competition because you can buy a tv for everyroom in your house, but most people won't go over kill. it comes out of your pocket anyways. medical care gets better, everyone still needs it more and more and it costs more and more. :p you get through insurance medical care you couldn't afford otherwise in many cases.

i mean what do you do.. do you spend millions keeping alive someone that repeatedly destroys his transplanted livers using alcohol? do you let him take resources from others? esp if he can't pay. do you assume unlimited resources in keeping people alive? or do you let some die.
 

Pooteh

Senior member
Aug 12, 2002
503
0
0
Hollywood liberal sensationalist flick.


and shutup about the liberal bullsh*t. its just a bad movie that insults your intelligence. many "liberal" critics panned this movie for that very reason.

find some other way to pad your responses.
 

tcsenter

Lifer
Sep 7, 2001
18,949
575
126
A gangerenous digit or limb has to be amputated, failing kidneys require transplants, and obesity drives a myriad of cardiovascular diseases with expensive treatments. True healthcare REDUCES disease burden in the population. People are healthier and the costs are REDUCED for EVERYONE.
It is true that prevention and the EARLIEST of detection can reduce health care costs, but you're largely referring to a phenomena within American culture which causes us to have a love affair with life-style choices that are not good for us, where a popular response to health advice is "I drive too fast to worry about my cholesterol."

We love to smoke, drink, take drugs, and eat animal byproducts, and we like to do these things while moving as little as possible, preferrably in front of the television. When we're told that we need to lose weight or stop smoking, the prevailing attitude is 'yeah sure, and as soon as I lose 50lbs or stop smoking, a car will come careening over the sidewalk and kill me. No thanks.'

When we're young we value quality of life over quantity of life, because we never imagined that we would make it beyond 50, anyway. That makes sense to us, until we actually see the age of 50, something we were betting our future health would not happen, and by then much of the damage has been done.

These are life-style choices that NO "physician" reports having great success at changing. Most physicians become rather disenchanted with the notion they can change people because they KNOW the vast majority of people will change their life-style when they are good and ready, not a moment before they are good and ready, and no amount of encouraging or discouraging words from a doctor is going to change when they become good and ready.

Further, most physicians cannot help feeling as though they are only nagging responsible adults who are well aware their life-style choices place them into higher risk categories for heart disease, lung disease, and cancer. Hell my last family doctor smoked. Health care practitioners are a reflection of society; they eat too much, smoke too much, exercise too little, and yes they occasionally partake in illegal narcotics.

I used to smoke and would frequently see anesthesiologists, obstetricians, emergency room physicians, physician assistants, nurses, radiographic technicians, et. al. smoking. One of our thoracic surgeon oncologists smoked. One would think that out of all health care professionals, someone who cuts out hunks of malignant and blackened lung tissue a few times a week and watches his patients die of lung cancer regularly would be the most viscerally opposed to smoking.

As much as health care professionals can make a difference in people's lives, you cannot deny that in regards to these life-style choices, the #1 killer and quality of life destroyer in America is life-style related pathology, there is only so much that health care can do in the way of prevention, other than to nag people to death, the vast majority of whom already know the risks.
 

BaliBabyDoc

Lifer
Jan 20, 2001
10,737
0
0
Geez you read neither the links nor the source articles.
The disparity in survival rates, cancer rates, heart disease, and other factors is well known and SOLELY attributed to the explanations I've already noted:
OK, show me. Your diatribe contains elements of truth admixed with your opinion. Give me ONE or I'll use your favorite word find a SOLE reference from a peer-reviewed journal that can corroborate your statements.

You said Neurosurgery and Orthopedic Surgery were the two MOST difficult residency programs to match. Neurosurgery you are in the ballpark. Orthopedic Surgery you are wrong. Indeed, if you can read and use a calculator you can make judgments as to which residency programs would be the most competitive.

Per your routine you prefer to rely on your sociological expertise instead of medical. Fine, ignorance is bliss. Your commentary is certainly consistent with plenty of anecdotes I've observed but actual research does not agree. Every abuse I've seen pisses me off but I don't bear a grudge to the next person without resources by making ASSumptions about why they seek care in the ER or don't have a primary care doctor. You know what I do? I ask! And the reasons run a gamut from ignorance and stupidity to reality of life just not being fair.
You're dealing with someone who worked for years exclusively in high minority, low income areas, at not-for-profit hospitals which service a disproportionate number of uninsured or indigent people. The ignorance among this population is nothing short of astounding, stupifying ignorance and misconceptions about health matters in general and the rate of non-compliance with medical advice is notorious. Ask any nurse or ER physician. I've had this conversation many times with BLACK DOCTORS who completely agree with me.
Well, isn't that nice. I've been learning and working for years in areas with high majority, low income populations which service a disproportionate number of uninsured or indigent people. The ignorance among this population is not astounding b/c the overall system of education bites. Their misconceptions about health matters in general and the rate of non-compliance with medical advice is disappointing. I don't have to ask b/c I'm there. I don't need to ask a doctor of any hue (like mine or otherwise) b/c most completely agree that low education populations of any color are difficult to serve. Knowledgable ones would tell you that some communities (particularly minority) have a legacy of distrust for the medical establishment. Something about poor quality of healthcare (clear non-beneficence) and sometimes clear maleficence. But of course you know all this already . . .
Sure, just as we understand that your "elite" pediatrician and IM specialist still only matches the training of the 'average' neurosurgeon and orthopod. I'm sure you can find some "elite" family practice physicians who have an inordinate and unusual amount of training, too. I like your caveat..."elite". haha
You really should ask somebody to help you out.
2001 FREIDA (Resdiency Information)
(There's a little fudge for transitional years)
I created chart but it didn't format . . . oh well.

You can look at workforce stats as well but the most recent are 1997-1998. Remember all of these people trained primarily on Medicare funding to teaching facilities and they paid EXACTLY the same amount to attend medical school. The elite in internal medicine will include nearly 1/3 of the 21000 primary IM residents who will train for an AVERAGE of 5.6 years which is longer than your average Orthopod. The ratio of positions per unique applicant (most ortho, uro, derm, ENT, and ophtho will apply to 25+programs) is lower for dermatology, ophthamology, and ENT than orthopedic surgery. In my universe, more people competing for a given spot sounds like a more competitive program. Only 193 of your AVERAGE 2955 (15%) orthosurg residents will seek a single additional year of fellowship training after their 5 year residency.

Graduate medical education incurs substantial costs. Medicare alone contributes more than $6 billion per year for its share of graduate medical education costs. However, costs vary widely among institutions. The U.S. Congressional Budget Office estimates that the annual costs of graduate medical education to Medicare range from $58 000 to $102 000 per resident in 1993 dollars, depending on the residency program (30).

There are some wonderful people in medicine who chose specialties or primary care in order to serve. Others do it for the money. Regardless, government, residency programs, and professional associations control the total supply of residency/fellowship positions as well as active physicians. But historically it has been haphazard.

The physician costs of care have increased b/c hospitals train doctors and they tend to train specialists. Specialist care is useful but overutilized which inflates not only their salaries but the cost to Medicare (and all other payers).

Peds perspective on residency funding
Graduate medical education (GME) financing has become a major issue for both Medicare reform and the physician workforce. Medicare is the only major explicit financier of GME and related activities in the United States, making payments of over $6 billion each year to teaching hospitals. These payments may have encouraged an increase in the number of residency positions in recent years. At the same time, policy makers are projecting a physician surplus in the near future, partially attributable to increasing numbers of residency positions created in the past 2 decades.1-5

That's your market force at work . . . more specialty trained residents (including IM, orthosurg, etc) b/c the government is picking up the tab. How can you have an oversupply and shortage at the same time?

For more than two decades, the number of graduate medical residency training positions and the aggregate supply of physicians in the United States has far exceeded national physician workforce requirements. However, millions of Americans do not have adequate access to health care services, and physicians are not optimally distributed geographically or among specialties.
American College of Physicians
 

BaliBabyDoc

Lifer
Jan 20, 2001
10,737
0
0
We love to smoke, drink, take drugs, and eat animal byproducts, and we like to do these things while moving as little as possible, preferrably in front of the television. When we're told that we need to lose weight or stop smoking, the prevailing attitude is 'yeah sure, and as soon as I lose 50lbs or stop smoking, a car will come careening over the sidewalk and kill me. No thanks.'
Let me guess, I bet you spend your time watching commercials and reading ads that endorse "smoke, drink, take (legal) drugs, and eat animal byproducts" . . . oh and watch more TV.

These are life-style choices that NO "physician" reports having great success at changing. Most physicians become rather disenchanted with the notion they can change people because they KNOW the vast majority of people will change their life-style when they are good and ready, not a moment before they are good and ready, and no amount of encouraging or discouraging words from a doctor is going to change when they become good and ready.
You are right. Only GOOD physicians report success at changing lifestyle choices.

Annals of Internal Medicine . . . the GOOD doctors
Physician recommendations have consistently been shown to exert a powerful influence on patient behavior.11, 12 Unfortunately, the health care community as a whole is not as active as it might be in the treatment of obesity as a chronic disease.13, 14 In a recent national survey, nearly 40% of women and 25% of men who were overweight or obese reported having ever received medical counseling about the adverse health consequences of increased weight.15

Now patients lie on surveys all the time. Hell, they even lie to your face on occasion. Many physicians are poorly trained in lifestyle interventions. Many do not provide counseling or even know how to access such services (assuming availability). Sure patients fail good interventions but the majority of failures in lifestyle change are due to physician ignorance, apathy, and apprehension . . . which means people never really get a chance to try. The military does not have a monopoly on "Don't Ask, Don't Tell". Residency programs now exist just for Preventive Medicine. Why? B/C most doctors never learned it.

Pay raises 1999
HMO exec salaries
Yeah market forces at work. It must be so few people with so little skill that drives their compensation.
1997-2000 change in specialty pay
HMO top dogs
Radiology Rules
Another shining example of market forces. No one WANTED to be a radiologist in the late 80s-early 90s. But thnx to everybody and their uncle getting CAT scans and MRIs radiology is big demand while the supply is relatively low. Many unretired to fill in the gap while residency programs have become extremely competitive. It's not skill it's timing. Average income offers increased from 225K to 271K in one year. The same for anesthesiology. This headhunter performed 9 searches in 97-98 and 127 searches in 00-01. There are many great radiologists and anesthesiologists out there but many were . . . umm not exactly the top of the class.

Physician salaries 3 years in practice
Starting salaries