Just want to ask - How many of you support what is described...

[Kadarin]

EDIT:
Everyone who views this thread should definitely note the tilt of posters towards criticising me as being anti-jewish whereas I have not made any remarks to lend credence to such statements.

You don't need to make any such remarks. You are Muslim, right? That makes you by definition anti-Jewish.

 

[Pulsar]

my implication is that this is an example of what is done and not even documented by the IDF. Without international observers or oversight, such incidents could happen unabated, and probably does. do you have any proof to the contrary?

now lets take the example of a palestinian action and the consequences. one video would bring the hordes of you crying out on the "filthy", "terrorist" Palestinians/Arabs.

I also like your assertion that burning cigarettes on a young teenager is an example of how human these soldiers are

1. How do you know this is not documented in the IDF?
2. Are you suggesting we force international observers and oversight on a sovereign nation?
3. You are making the claim this happens unabated. Therefore it is YOU that need to provide proof. Not me.
4. The people in the videos are talking about the problems. Bringing them to light. It's a documentary of sorts. They are soldiers, and they are going on record with the wrongdoing. That takes a lot of courage.

I never suggested that the soldiers who tortured that poor boy were an example of humanism. That is your own hatred projecting through and not allowing you to think rationally.

Perhaps the best part of this little game you play can be understood from this statement you made:
"now lets take the example of a palestinian action and the consequences. one video would bring the hordes of you crying out on the "filthy", "terrorist" Palestinians/Arabs."

I answer your statement with a another statement you made:
"And here you have it, a prime example of how attitudes of palestinian terrorism is justified by demeaning Israelis and throwing in unsubstantiated rhetoric and random nonsense"

Your entire thread is EXACTLY about that. Demeaning Israelis through innuendo, rhetoric, and random nonsense. I certainly hope you understand what a hypocrite you are and how foolish you sound. Wolfe9999 had it dead on when he said you're just another person playing the hate-filled public relations game.

 

[Infohawk]

Should I go hunting for videos to paint Palestinians and Arabs in a bad light? Shall I start a thread that says, look, this rape victim in Saudi Arabia is being whipped for allowing herself to be raped, and I'm curious who supports that?

Routan's question is a ridiculous troll question.

 

[routan]

Spare you the honesty lecture, eh? My problem was not with you posting the videos or criticizing Israel, but with the phony question you posed as a pretext for doing so.

You're right, people post videos bashing Palestinians, Arabs, and Muslims. This is a PR war on both sides. And you're just playing your part in it. No need to pretend otherwise.

Perhaps you should get your facts straight. The OP has no criticism of Israel. And I challenge you to prove me wrong. If you cannot, admit that you just lied.

As for the PR war, that is quite a ridiculous claim. Which "media" shows you these videos or inform anyone in the States about such events. However, anything and everything done against Israel reaches the stratosphere, and Arabs/Palestinians are demonized to all extent. Thats not a "PR War". Its plain out deceit.

 

[routan]

1. How do you know this is not documented in the IDF?
2. Are you suggesting we force international observers and oversight on a sovereign nation?
3. You are making the claim this happens unabated. Therefore it is YOU that need to provide proof. Not me.
4. The people in the videos are talking about the problems. Bringing them to light. It's a documentary of sorts. They are soldiers, and they are going on record with the wrongdoing. That takes a lot of courage.

I never suggested that the soldiers who tortured that poor boy were an example of humanism. That is your own hatred projecting through and not allowing you to think rationally.

Perhaps the best part of this little game you play can be understood from this statement you made:
"now lets take the example of a palestinian action and the consequences. one video would bring the hordes of you crying out on the "filthy", "terrorist" Palestinians/Arabs."

I answer your statement with a another statement you made:
"And here you have it, a prime example of how attitudes of palestinian terrorism is justified by demeaning Israelis and throwing in unsubstantiated rhetoric and random nonsense"

Your entire thread is EXACTLY about that. Demeaning Israelis through innuendo, rhetoric, and random nonsense. I certainly hope you understand what a hypocrite you are and how foolish you sound. Wolfe9999 had it dead on when he said you're just another person playing the hate-filled public relations game.

1. If you see the video, the IDF soldier stated that the documentation was changed.
2. Palestinian occupied territory is not a "sovereign nation". It is occupied territories
3. I made the claim that this could happen unabated. I provided proof it does happen. Can you prove it does not happen unabated?
4. Courage would be to STOP the torturing. Not smiling happily and reporting on the violence they see and commit

Now I posted a video of IDF Soldiers talking about their experience. Not a third party report. Not a report of the Palestinians talking about how evil/bad Israel is. Just a straight up video of IDF Soldiers talking about their experiences. Thats not rhetoric or nonsense. Randomly saying Palestinians and Arabs killing innocent babies and then dancing about it IS unsubstantiated rhetoric and nonsense.

 

[Doboji]

Well, I think this is an interesting video. And if you can get past the propaganda it could possibly by indicative of some corruption within the IDF, which should be rooted out and dealt with. However, you have to ask yourself what the purpose of the video really is... Is it to better the IDF by rooting out corruption and abuse? Or is it to weaken Israels position and try to make Israel look bad, thereby lobbying people to the Palestinian side?

The propaganda elements the video of target crosshairs on children... The first woman talking about "power", when she was really talking about the power to make Israeli soldiers run around... Make me suspect it's the latter objective.

If that is indeed the case, then my view of what the video means would have to be tempered by information about Palestinian corruption and abuse, before I could make a sound judgement. But really they don't want you to think... They just want you to react emotionally to the video, and you probably did.

BTW, our deal is off... You haven't lived up to your side of the agreement in anyway shape or form. Please remove my quote from your signature.

 

[routan]

Well, I think this is an interesting video. And if you can get past the propaganda it could possibly by indicative of some corruption within the IDF, which should be rooted out and dealt with. However, you have to ask yourself what the purpose of the video really is... Is it to better the IDF by rooting out corruption and abuse? Or is it to weaken Israels position and try to make Israel look bad, thereby lobbying people to the Palestinian side?

The propaganda elements the video of target crosshairs on children... The first woman talking about "power", when she was really talking about the power to make Israeli soldiers run around... Make me suspect it's the latter objective.

If that is indeed the case, then my view of what the video means would have to be tempered by information about Palestinian corruption and abuse, before I could make a sound judgement. But really they don't want you to think... They just want you to react emotionally to the video, and you probably did.

BTW, our deal is off... You haven't lived up to your side of the agreement in anyway shape or form. Please remove my quote from your signature.

Really? Where have i spoken ill of jews? This thread?

In fact, I can provide examples of posts where I have called bullshit on posts that were anti-Judasim or anti-Jews. Can you?

Additionally, if you are referring to this thread, I find your "deal" quite interesting, and your original motives suspect, whereby if I am to crticise Israel, it will be considered anti-Jewish. If that is the bases, then any posts or threads that is levying criticism on Syria, Lebanon, Palestina, Egypt, Libya, Pakistan, Malaysia, Indonesia, etc, etc, etc should also have a post from you calling bullshit.

Also interesting is how you centered on "corruption" within the IDF instead of denouncing or at the minimum criticising the actions of the soldiers who were involved in torturing the teenager. In fact, you dismiss it as propaganda. So any criticism of Israel is propaganda, but any criticism of Palestine is - "look at those terrorists killing infant babies and then throwing parties on the streets, we need to keep their lands occupied for self-defence"

 

[Doboji]

Really? Where have i spoken ill of jews? This thread?

In fact, I can provide examples of posts where I have called bullshit on posts that were anti-Judasim or anti-Jews. Can you?

Additionally, if you are referring to this thread, I find your "deal" quite interesting, and your original motives suspect, whereby if I am to crticise Israel, it will be considered anti-Jewish. If that is the bases, then any posts or threads that is levying criticism on Syria, Lebanon, Palestina, Egypt, Libya, Pakistan, Malaysia, Indonesia, etc, etc, etc should also have a post from you calling bullshit.

Also interesting is how you centered on "corruption" within the IDF instead of denouncing or at the minimum criticising the actions of the soldiers who were involved in torturing the teenager. In fact, you dismiss it as propaganda. So any criticism of Israel is propaganda, but any criticism of Palestine is - "look at those terrorists killing infant babies and then throwing parties on the streets, we need to keep their lands occupied for self-defence"

Yes, please show me some examples... You were hideously absent at some of the worst Jew bashing threads over the weeks since our deal. I pretty much ripped some people's heads off for being anti-Muslim.... including A777pilot, and Nebor.

Again, the issue at hand is not criticism of government policies of countries but against groups of people... Muslims and Jews. For example.. A couple days ago there was a thread about Iran, where one poster spent a good dozen posts talking about how the Holocaust was a myth, and was bragging about his anti-Jew Tshirts. I think he eventually got banned when he laughed about bitches getting shoved in the oven...

I absolutely denounce the actions of soldiers who torture teenagers... And not all information that casts Israel or the IDF in a negative light is propaganda. However this video was...

I don't deny that there's plenty of propaganda going both ways... I'm interested in videos and articles that simply state the facts, not ones that use blatant lies and half truths to elicit emotional support.

 

[routan]

Yes, please show me some examples... You were hideously absent at some of the worst Jew bashing threads over the weeks since our deal. I pretty much ripped some people's heads off for being anti-Muslim.... including A777pilot, and Nebor.

Again, the issue at hand is not criticism of government policies of countries but against groups of people... Muslims and Jews. For example.. A couple days ago there was a thread about Iran, where one poster spent a good dozen posts talking about how the Holocaust was a myth, and was bragging about his anti-Jew Tshirts. I think he eventually got banned when he laughed about bitches getting shoved in the oven...

I absolutely denounce the actions of soldiers who torture teenagers... And not all information that casts Israel or the IDF in a negative light is propaganda. However this video was...

I don't deny that there's plenty of propaganda going both ways... I'm interested in videos and articles that simply state the facts, not ones that use blatant lies and half truths to elicit emotional support.

To see examples, all you have to do is a search.

While I agree I have been absent during what you are describing as anti-Jew bashing, I was not absent only for those threads, but other priorities took over than AT P&N, hence I was absent from any posts.

I can readily apologize if I missed the bigot in the Iran thread. I cannot see every post, and our agreement was based on calling bullshit on posts seen. I havent seen a single post of yours calling bullshit on any Islamophobic or anti-Muslim post. However, I havent actually seen any Islamophobic or anti-Muslim post in the recent past to which I can demand your explanation.

As to the content of this thread, I fail to see how this is "propaganda". You have IDF soldiers commenting on IDF practices that they have experienced. Are you suggesting they were mislead into saying what they did? Bribed? Coereced? Or are they just blatantly lying or speaking half-truths as you are implying? Do you have any basis for that conclusion? None that I have seen.

Without any basis, you claim this video is propaganda. I guess every video that is shown of Palestinians committing atrocities is also propaganda then. Tbh, I was expecting different from you

 

[woolfe9999]

Without any basis, you claim this video is propaganda. I guess every video that is shown of Palestinians committing atrocities is also propaganda then. Tbh, I was expecting different from you

Point of clarification, propaganda is not false by definition. It is often false in practice, to varying degrees. Propaganda is just information presented, false or otherwise, for the purpose of supporting one cause and/or damaging another. Calling this video propaganda is nothing more than observing that it isn't simple fact reporting for the sake of reporting facts. There is an agenda behind it. However, that doesn't mean that what is portrayed is necessarily untrue. The thing about propaganda is, it is often true but purposefully selected to support a political aim. The propagandist is very particular about which true facts they want to expose people to. That is the best you get from propaganda. When it is selective and cherry picked, but true nonetheless.

The video itself, BTW, contains all sorts of footage that doesn't appear to be connected to the interviewee's comments but is inserted into it to "dramatize" what they are describing, in order to activate the viewer's emotions by adding visuals. This is a common technique of propaganda. Still, I see no particular reason to question the credibility of either interviewee unless I see evidence to put it in question. The first interviewee is talking about an incident where some youths were taken into custody for throwing rocks and she isn't sure they actually did it. Nothing is said about what happened to those youths. For all we know, they were released quickly and unharmed. The second interview, however, is describing something far more disturbing.

Does one or two incidents constitute a pattern in a conflict that has been going on this long and involves this many people? I think not. Still, it doesn't make the incident itself any less disturbing or upsetting.

FWIW, I see no evidence of Jew bashing on your part.

- wolf

 

[routan]

Point of clarification, propaganda is not false by definition. It is often false in practice, to varying degrees. Propaganda is just information presented, false or otherwise, for the purpose of supporting one cause and/or damaging another. Calling this video propaganda is nothing more than observing that it isn't simple fact reporting for the sake of reporting facts. There is an agenda behind it. However, that doesn't mean that what is portrayed is necessarily untrue. The thing about propaganda is, it is often true but purposefully selected to support a political aim. The propagandist is very particular about which true facts they want to expose people to. That is the best you get from propaganda. When it is selective and cherry picked, but true nonetheless.

The video itself, BTW, contains all sorts of footage that doesn't appear to be connected to the interviewee's comments but is inserted into it to "dramatize" what they are describing, in order to activate the viewer's emotions by adding visuals. This is a common technique of propaganda. Still, I see no particular reason to question the credibility of either interviewee unless I see evidence to put it in question. The first interviewee is talking about an incident where some youths were taken into custody for throwing rocks and she isn't sure they actually did it. Nothing is said about what happened to those youths. For all we know, they were released quickly and unharmed. The second interview, however, is describing something far more disturbing.

Does one or two incidents constitute a pattern in a conflict that has been going on this long and involves this many people? I think not. Still, it doesn't make the incident itself any less disturbing or upsetting.

FWIW, I see no evidence of Jew bashing on your part.

- wolf

I am glad you recognized this bit. Unlike common perception, most Muslims (obviously not all) do not hate or even dislike Jews, whether you look at it from the historical perspective, or current day.

I also see the validity of your point regarding propaganda. I will add that I for one was not "moved" or was "emotionally" distracted by the additional footage.

Do these two incidents conclude to a pattern? Obviously not. But given that the second incident does describe a cover-up, it does beg the question how many other such incidents may be covered up, and also supports the presence of non-IDF foots on the ground as observers.

 

[Doboji]

I am glad you recognized this bit. Unlike common perception, most Muslims (obviously not all) do not hate or even dislike Jews, whether you look at it from the historical perspective, or current day.

I also see the validity of your point regarding propaganda. I will add that I for one was not "moved" or was "emotionally" distracted by the additional footage.

Do these two incidents conclude to a pattern? Obviously not. But given that the second incident does describe a cover-up, it does beg the question how many other such incidents may be covered up, and also supports the presence of non-IDF foots on the ground as observers.

I agree with this 100%. Incidents like this should absolutely be investigated, and the perpetrators dealt with. There's no excuse for treating people the way described.

I think you and I are now on the same page... My issue was not with the information being communicated, my issue was with the method, and objectives of the video itself. I don't believe the maker was as interested in protecting people against the abuse described as he was in using the abuse as a weapon for a broader objective.

BTW: I found your post calling Bullshit in that Ahmadinejad thread... At least you did something... but still pretty weak. Here is one of my bullshit calls for reference:

http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?p=31990763&highlight=#post31990763