Just Say No To College

[dmcowen674]

12-3-2012

http://news.slashdot.org/story/12/1...utm_source=rss1.0mainlinkanon&utm_medium=feed

Just Say No To College



'People are being conned into thinking that this credential is the one thing you need to do better in life. They typically are worse off, because they have amassed all this debt.'

Even the staunchest critics of college concede that a diploma is still necessary for many professions — law and medicine, clearly, and in many cases, for a Fortune 500 executive, too. But that’s the point: how many more lawyers and middle managers do we need?


“College is training for managerial work, and the economy doesn’t need that many managers,” said Michael Ellsberg, the author of “The Education of Millionaires: Everything You Won’t Learn In College About How to Be Successful.”

Mr. Ellsberg, 35, graduated from Brown University and spent years trying to translate his expertise in post-colonial critical theory into a paying career. So his book tries to impart real-world skills, like salesmanship and networking, which he argues are crucial as white-collar jobs are being downsized or shipped to Bangalore. The future, he added, belongs to job creators, even if the only job they create is their own.

THEY can also nourish their minds from a growing menu of Internet classrooms, including the massive open online courses, or MOOCs, which stream classes from elite universities like Princeton. This guerrilla approach hits home with young people who came of age seeking out valuable content free on Napster and BitTorrent.


Mr. Stephens, a dropout from Hendrix College in Arkansas (he later earned a Thiel Fellowship), started UnCollege less than two years ago, and already its Web site attracts 20,000 unique visitors a month. “I get on scale of 10 to 15 e-mails a day from people who say something along lines of, ‘I thought I was the only one out there who thought about education like this, I don’t feel crazy anymore,’ ” he said.


There are other groups, too, like Enstitute, which offers two-year apprenticeships with entrepreneurs in lieu of college, and Zero Tuition College, an online support network for students looking for alternatives.

 

[dmcowen674]

So many of the elite in here push College.

They must personally profit being related to a school.

 

[Engineer]

We can send every single person in the US to college and all we will have to show for it is the most educated McDonald's and WalMart work forces in the world.

 

[Ausm]

We can send every single person in the US to college and all we will have to show for it is the most educated McDonald's and WalMart work forces in the world.

This is true, I know many people with a college education but work in menial jobs.

 

[OverVolt]

Lots of trends feed off each other. 2008 was a "mancession" and girls don't think critically about credentials. Girls just think credentials = job, even if the credentials are a total joke, they can't tell the difference.

Its 135 girls per 100 guys getting bachelors degrees and diverging larger and larger.

-Online courses will never get you the proper credential. Because there is very little competitive pressure on the colleges themselves (all the pressure is on the students) none of them are very motivated to start a good online program. You can get the information for free online, but you can't get the degree.

 

[DrPizza]

So many of the elite in here push College.

They must personally profit being related to a school.

I make a huge effort to introduce students to the idea that
A) if they go to college, they should really pay attention to the job market for their major
B) there are a LOT of very good paying jobs that don't require a 4 year college degree (some do require a 2 year degree though, which is generally MUCH cheaper.)

It was just a week ago that my geometry class did constructions. I pointed out to the students that if they really enjoyed working with stuff like that, that they might be interested in a CAD class (we offer one). And, I pointed out that if they went to the local state university for a 2 year degree, they could graduate and earn more than a starting teacher with a master's degree.

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

So many of the elite in here push College.

They must personally profit being related to a school.

In IT: You CAN go certs. I have seen plenty get pretty far with just certs

Anything else such as business, database, management... basically... anything with 6 figures+ ? Yeah, you better get a fucking degree. Why? Because there are shitloads of jobs for things such as business. Why? BECAUSE EVERY COMPANY NEEDS IT.

The problem with the debt (and this article is walking around this, but it's clearly the problem) - is the people that get a shit degree and expect to have a 50k+ job handed to them on a silver platter. A college doesn't create jobs. It creates credentials. So lets take

The mind of a liberal: I here gots sum studays of sociology. I dunno wat do wit it but gimme a job i want atleast $60,000!

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

This is true, I know many people with a college education but work in menial jobs.

Yes, yes, you have lots of friends that majored in Psychology, English, History, <Insert worthless degree>, don'tcha?




Everything related to jobs goes back to supply and demand - the very principles that this economy was based on that liberals still can't grasp. Millions people working at retail shops getting "abused" with minimum wage for a skill-less job? THATS UNFAIR! Well - thats because there are over 9000 of you, and much less of other positions. People need to get off this pedestal of "I'll do whats fun / what I enjoy / what I can do" and move to "What does everyone else demand?"

 

[kache]

We can send every single person in the US to college and all we will have to show for it is the most educated McDonald's and WalMart work forces in the world.

That would still make for a much better society.

 

[rudder]

Unfortunately college is the only career track now a days. Sure you can become a plumbers apprentice... but you will be competing with low wage illegal workers. Same thing with construction, masonry, etc. If somehow you could compete and survive... your only hope for a decent living would be to own your own company and hire low wage illegal labor.

 

[rudder]

That would still make for a much better society.

You are more than welcome to sponsor a college student or two. Better yet, pick a few that have no ambition in life other than to smoke pot and play xbox all weekend. tell them after 6 years they need to be done with college. Watch society blossom.

 

[CycloWizard]

The author is an idiot. Not every college program trains managers. If you get a degree in engineering, the jobs landscape is completely different:

At its worst in September 2009, the unemployment rate for engineers reached 6.4 percent, versus nearly 10 percent for all occupations. By the middle of last year, it had dropped to under 2 percent.

I'm sorry if you thought you were going to make six figures with a psych degree, but it's not too late to man up and get a useful degree that is actually in demand. Sure it's much more difficult, but you'll get no sympathy from me choosing an easy degree.

 

[FerrelGeek]

College is WAY overrated, for the very reasons you state. There are also so many BS majors as well - pun partially intended. Many four year degrees could be accomplished in two, for what you could do with them. We're gonna push a trade school for my youngest as it will fit him much better than college.

Tuition rates have been rising above inflation for as long as I can remember. It's a bloody racket. More and more kids are graduating with no way to pay back their student loans. Guess where our next big bailout is gonna be?

I make a huge effort to introduce students to the idea that
A) if they go to college, they should really pay attention to the job market for their major
B) there are a LOT of very good paying jobs that don't require a 4 year college degree (some do require a 2 year degree though, which is generally MUCH cheaper.)

It was just a week ago that my geometry class did constructions. I pointed out to the students that if they really enjoyed working with stuff like that, that they might be interested in a CAD class (we offer one). And, I pointed out that if they went to the local state university for a 2 year degree, they could graduate and earn more than a starting teacher with a master's degree.

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

The author is an idiot. Not every college program trains managers. If you get a degree in engineering, the jobs landscape is completely different:

I'm sorry if you thought you were going to make six figures with a psych degree, but it's not too late to man up and get a useful degree that is actually in demand. Sure it's much more difficult, but you'll get no sympathy from me choosing an easy degree.

This.


But... but... I don't feel comfortable learning things that I didn't enjoy doing growing up! I want a degree in playing videogames, I WANT TO BE PAID GOOD DAMNIT!

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

College is WAY overrated, for the very reasons you state. There are also so many BS majors as well - pun partially intended. Many four year degrees could be accomplished in two, for what you could do with them.

I will agree with you there, the first 2 years of just about any bachelor is damn near a review of high school - followed shortly thereafter with useless electives.


But depending on what job you are going after, I can definitely say it's not always a choice. But that is something that people need to evaluate before they go into college.

 

[brandonb]

I've been saying the same thing for years.

When was the last time a job checked to see if you graduated high school? The main reason people go to college anymore is to just get that piece of paper so their resume isn't thrown away. Do you think any employers actually check college degrees anymore? They don't... Too many people to check, much like nobody ever checks for high school diplomas.

I have nearly 20 years of Software Development experience now, and I didn't go to college, but if I don't say I have a 2 or 4 year, my resume is thrown away. I never had trouble getting a job after changing up the resume and my employers have never known the difference.

 

[NikolaeVarius]

I will agree with you there, the first 2 years of just about any bachelor is damn near a review of high school - followed shortly thereafter with useless electives.


But depending on what job you are going after, I can definitely say it's not always a choice. But that is something that people need to evaluate before they go into college.

Don't know what school you went to, but my first and second year were full of statics classes,multivairable calc, fluid dynamics classes, and such.

Nowhere NEAR highschool, except calc 1/2.

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

I've been saying the same thing for years.

When was the last time a job checked to see if you graduated high school? The main reason people go to college anymore is to just get that piece of paper so their resume isn't thrown away. Do you think any employers actually check college degrees anymore? They don't... Too many people to check, much like nobody ever checks for high school diplomas.

I have nearly 20 years of Software Development experience now, and I didn't go to college, but if I don't say I have a 2 or 4 year, my resume is thrown away. I never had trouble getting a job after changing up the resume and my employers have never known the difference.

Hahaha - are you saying you are lying on your resume about having a degree? Or inserting some BS as a substitute for it?

Not that I can blame you, the fact that all resume's go through HR to run a program to check it for key words is stupid in the first place. When it comes to something like... say... virtualization. You can have shitloads of experience in VMWare, but they are looking for Microsoft Virtual and immediately deny yours, regardless of it being same skills

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

Don't know what school you went to, but my first and second year were full of statics classes,multivairable calc, fluid dynamics classes, and such.

Nowhere NEAR highschool, except calc 1/2.

Calc we dipped into in HS, and uhhh not sure where you went, but they all touched on English, History, social science, normal science, and all the other standards of HS. Fluid Dynamics? Yeah, you're definitely off into the 2nd - 3rd year.

 

[Exterous]

So many of the elite in here push College.

They must personally profit being related to a school.

Or maybe some just know that there still is a very large advantage to attending college and getting a degree. While I certainly agree that it is not for everyone there are many key points to consider:

Jobs for a bachelors degree or higher are up 2,000,000 since 2007
Jobs for HS or less are down 5,800,000 since 2007

7.8M jobs is a significant gap that obviously favors those who go to college

Employment growth of Bachelors degrees or higher is up 82% since 1989 while HS or less is down 14%

You will also earn nearly 2x more than a HS student - on average.

http://www9.georgetown.edu/grad/gppi/hpi/cew/pdfs/CollegeAdvantage.FullReport.081512.pdf

Is this to say you can't succeed without a college degree? No. Is this to say that a college degree will magically make your life better? No. It is merely to point out that getting a college degree can and does still confer a great benefit over not getting one

 

[bignateyk]

Brown University and spent years trying to translate his expertise in post-colonial critical theory into a paying career.

?????? So this idiot pays Ivy League tuition for a degree in something you'd have to be an idiot to think would be a useful job skill and then complains about not getting a high paying job?

Post colonial critical theory? What the hell does that even mean?

 

[bignateyk]

So many of the elite in here push College.

They must personally profit being related to a school.

Nothing wrong with college if you are going for a worthwhile degree at an affordable school or have scholarships. You'll get laughed at if you try to get a job in engineering with no degree.

I came out of a state school with a 4 year engineering degree with less than $15K in debt.

 

[Charles Kozierok]

Saying "no to college" because some people waste their time and money getting degrees in basket weaving is like saying "no to food" because some people subsist on donuts and pork rinds.

 

[Engineer]

That would still make for a much better society.

Looks at the fact that student loan debt is now larger than credit card debt and wonders if you're serious. Everyone is not made to go to college. We need good wealth creating jobs for those people, not a college education.

 

[mikegg]

I just went through college. Unless you are getting a highly technical degree, you're paying the "college" to force you to learn and study.

You can learn anything nowadays on the internet and dummy books. Seriously. You can learn literally everything. All college does is force you to actually do the studying. So most students are amassing 100k debt just because they don't have the motivation to self-learn.

I would have been better off spending my last 5 years self studying the field that I'm at now. But some companies might not have taken me seriously.

Companies need to start changing their stance on college. College DOES NOT mean capable workers. Some of my peers went through college and know next to nothing. They are dumber than high school graduates because all they did was party and get Cs in class. Companies need to understand that some people are self-taught and they are actually highly skilled at what they do because they have an interest in what they taught themselves.