Just curious, which new cars still use a timing chain?

[bfun_x1]

Most manufacturers use chains.

Note that while most people aren't aware, technically chains are a wear item too. They just have a longer service interval. Personally I prefer belts as the system is simpler overall with far less components to potentially fail.

I knew a guy that had to rebuild a Toyota engine when the timing chain broke. It's rare but it can happen. I think I'd still prefer a chain though. I've changed a belt once and I don't want to do it again. It took my 260lbs on the end of a 5 foot cheater bar to break the crankshaft bolt loose.

 

[dave_the_nerd]

Honda switched over to chains in all of their 4 cylinders around 2000. Their V6's continued to use belts for a while. Maybe they still have belts?

The V6 Acuras do.

 

[ponyo]

So I found out that my 2004 Lexus RX 330 has a timing belt, and not a timing chain. Aside from the insane price it costs to replace, this is a huge annoyance, because if the belt pops, the engine will go with it, and there is no cheap or easy way to bring it back to life. I cant believe most motorists don't consider this a big flaw.

I did read up on why belts are used instead of chains, but I always place reliability above performance, and had I known about the belt in my car prior to purchase, I would have never gotten it.


Anyway, I am curious if any car manufacturers still make cars with a timing chain instead of a belt these days.


Let me know if you know of any.

um, I told you RX 330 had timing belt and you would likely need to replace it. https://forums.anandtech.com/thread...ow-are-they-in-general.2540309/#post-39350218

 

[dave_the_nerd]

Oooooooohhhhh.

 

[bigi]

The complexity of ICE is very high. Timing belt/water pump replacement is one of most involved things one has to deal with w/out taking whole engine apart. Had done it once with my old '95 Camry.

My true hope is once I go EV, the simplicity of its propulsion will pay off with less headaches about this kind of stuff.

 

[XavierMace]

The complexity of ICE is very high. Timing belt/water pump replacement is one of most involved things one has to deal with w/out taking whole engine apart. Had done it once with my old '95 Camry.

My true hope is once I go EV, the simplicity of its propulsion will pay off with less headaches about this kind of stuff.

LOLWUT?

 

[crashtech]

Modern chain drives have such a long service life that most people won't have to worry about them at all. I think that's a plus. All my timing belt cars have been more of a pain in the ass. In fact, the timing chain equipped rigs that I have had don't even have a published service interval.

 

[ponyo]

The complexity of ICE is very high. Timing belt/water pump replacement is one of most involved things one has to deal with w/out taking whole engine apart. Had done it once with my old '95 Camry.

My true hope is once I go EV, the simplicity of its propulsion will pay off with less headaches about this kind of stuff.

I’ve had the timing belt and water pump replaced on three of my vehicles the past two years. It sucks but it's once in a decade maintenance item for me.

But I agree with you about EV. I'm looking forward to replacing most of my ICE vehicles with EV for the simplicity of the motor and maintenance.

 

[Rifter]

Look up timing chain guide failure.

A timing belt / water pump service every 90k miles isn't the end of the world.

Oh im well aware, Toyota 22R.....

 

[Rifter]

How many engines that use timing belts are interference engines? I suspect very few. So unless you have an interference engine and don’t bother with pesky things like routine maintenance then you have nothing to worry about.

I don’t get the movement against engines with timing belts. So you spend a few hundred dollars every 100k miles to replace a timing belt. Big deal.

I ride a motorcycle with timing belts and it is an interference engine and I don’t give it a second thought and replacing the timing belts on my bike is called for every 2 years or 15,000 miles.

Almost every modern engine is a interference design. id even say upwards of 80% of them.

 

[monkeydelmagico]

Modern chain drives have such a long service life that most people won't have to worry about them at all. I think that's a plus. All my timing belt cars have been more of a pain in the ass. In fact, the timing chain equipped rigs that I have had don't even have a published service interval.

The point is they probably should. Too many tensioner, guide, and oiler failures. Instead of setting parameters we end up having to use the force.

 

[sdifox]

I’ve had the timing belt and water pump replaced on three of my vehicles the past two years. It sucks but it's once in a decade maintenance item for me.

But I agree with you about EV. I'm looking forward to replacing most of my ICE vehicles with EV for the simplicity of the motor and maintenance.

I had a protege 5 for 8 years. Had to replace water pump 3 times xd

 

[crashtech]

The point is they probably should. Too many tensioner, guide, and oiler failures. Instead of setting parameters we end up having to use the force.

Maybe so, but overall, chain issues are very rare compared to belt breakages and mandatory belt replacements. Seems to me that many chain issues are not really because of a stretched chain, but marginal or defective designs coupled with failure to comply with oil change intervals. For most modern chain equipped engines, listing a chain service interval would be like listing a valve job interval.

 

[jlee]

Maybe so, but overall, chain issues are very rare compared to belt breakages and mandatory belt replacements. Seems to me that many chain issues are not really because of a stretched chain, but marginal or defective designs coupled with failure to comply with oil change intervals. For most modern chain equipped engines, listing a chain service interval would be like listing a valve job interval.

Much like timing belt breakages are not really because of a belt, but failure to comply with belt change intervals. Change a timing belt on schedule in a Toyota 2UZ and you're likely to see half a million miles out of it, if not more.

 

[crashtech]

Much like timing belt breakages are not really because of a belt, but failure to comply with belt change intervals. Change a timing belt on schedule in a Toyota 2UZ and you're likely to see half a million miles out of it, if not more.

Touche, although belt changes are around an order of magnitude more expensive and time consuming than an oil change, which should be done regardless.

Needless to say, I'm with the OP in desiring a properly designed timing chain over a belt any day. The fact that both still exists suggests each system has merit, though, or one would have conclusively won with OEMs by now.

 

[ponyo]

Much like timing belt breakages are not really because of a belt, but failure to comply with belt change intervals. Change a timing belt on schedule in a Toyota 2UZ and you're likely to see half a million miles out of it, if not more.

You have to change the timing belt like 5 times for the half a million miles. Meanwhile, there's good chance motor with stock timing chain can hit half a million miles. All the newer Toyota engines use chain instead of belt. I would much rather have chain instead of belt. Belt vs chain might not matter much to you since you probably change the belt yourself but someone like me who's mechanically inept, it's expensive taking it to the dealer for timing belt change.

 

[eng2d2]

Timing belt is at least a 3 hour job for a professional. For a first timer it is a long time. Not a weekend job for a first timer.

 

[NutBucket]

"Cost of doing business"

But of course different people have different priorities. I could care less about one additional maintenance item.

 

[frozentundra123456]

Honda switched over to chains in all of their 4 cylinders around 2000. Their V6's continued to use belts for a while. Maybe they still have belts?

Anyhow timing chain failures in Hondas are exceedingly rare. I know of plenty of examples of 400k+ mile Honda engines with perfectly functioning timing chains.

I have a 2005 Civic, and it has a timing belt.

 

[frozentundra123456]

"Cost of doing business"

But of course different people have different priorities. I could care less about one additional maintenance item.

I care when it is a several hundred dollar item than can be avoided when the engine has a timing chain. I also care when it is a maintenance item that can trash the engine if not done on time.

 

[Yuriman]

I have a 2005 Civic, and it has a timing belt.

I had forgotten they were still using the D series engines until 2005 in the Civics. I had to look it up, but the L series (2000+ Fit), E series (2000+ all 3 cylinders), R series (Civic 2006+), K series (2003+ Accord, CR-V, 2001+ Civic Si) all use chains. Only the J series continue to use belts now.

 

[JulesMaximus]

Almost every modern engine is a interference design. id even say upwards of 80% of them.

I did not know that. I thought manufacturers had largely gone to non-interference designs.

Still, the major disadvantage of an interference engine, valves crashing into pistons, can be completely avoided by following the maintenance schedule set by the manufacturer.

My Ducati is an interference engine and it has two timing belts that must be harmonically tensioned. I’ve owned a couple of them and I’d buy another one in a heartbeat despite the high maintenance cost and Italian reliability.

My son’s 4Runner only requires a new timing belt every 90,000 miles but it is a non-interference design. We replaced the timing belt after we bought it though as it was due.

Belt or chain has absolutely zero impact on my decision to purchase a vehicle.

 

[frozentundra123456]

Here is another problem though. I still have the Civic I mentioned above. I replaced the timing belt at around 90k. Now the car is 13 years old and has 150k. Do I spend *another* 700 bucks to replace the belt on a car that is only worth maybe 3 or 4 thousand dollars. It still runs and drives perfect, but it seems stupid to spend 20% of the value of the car on a "maintainence" item. OTOH, it is an interference engine, and I dont want to trash the car, since it still runs very well and my wife likes it. And believe me, I have neither the skill or facilities to replace it myself.

 

[Yuriman]

Here is another problem though. I still have the Civic I mentioned above. I replaced the timing belt at around 90k. Now the car is 13 years old and has 150k. Do I spend *another* 700 bucks to replace the belt on a car that is only worth maybe 3 or 4 thousand dollars. It still runs and drives perfect, but it seems stupid to spend 20% of the value of the car on a "maintainence" item. OTOH, it is an interference engine, and I dont want to trash the car, since it still runs very well and my wife likes it. And believe me, I have neither the skill or facilities to replace it myself.

Yeah that's exactly the point where timing belts are an issue. My previous 94 Del Sol had 240k miles and still ran great, but needed a belt. I decided it wasn't worth dropping the cash into having a mechanic do it, so I learned myself. It wasn't bad actually, aside from getting the crank pulley bolt loose. The sucker was tight after not moving for almost 20 years. Bright side? Total job cost less than $80.

 

[ponyo]

Here is another problem though. I still have the Civic I mentioned above. I replaced the timing belt at around 90k. Now the car is 13 years old and has 150k. Do I spend *another* 700 bucks to replace the belt on a car that is only worth maybe 3 or 4 thousand dollars. It still runs and drives perfect, but it seems stupid to spend 20% of the value of the car on a "maintainence" item. OTOH, it is an interference engine, and I dont want to trash the car, since it still runs very well and my wife likes it. And believe me, I have neither the skill or facilities to replace it myself.

If everything else is fine, I would pay to replace the timing belt and water pump. I paid around $1,200 to change the timing belt, water pump, and couple other accessory belts on my 2002 Tundra late last year. The truck is probably only worth like $5k but I feel like I can drive it another 10 -15 years no problem.

Timing belt definitely plays a role when I buy used vehicle and the purchase price. If I know the vehicle is due for timing belt change and the seller can't provide me concrete proof it's been changed, I'll deduct $1k from my purchase offer since I know I will have to spend that for new timing belt and water pump replacement. It's the same as if I see tires need replacement. I deduct $500 from purchase offer. When I purchased 2005 LX470 last year, I accounted for the cost of new timing belt, water pump, and tires and had all replaced at the dealer prior to purchase.