Just curious what you think about this...

[thirtythree]

*: Are you familiar with determinism?
*: It's the idea that everything happens exactly as it has to.
*: Imagine a world without living creatures. It's not hard to imagine that the world unfolds in the only way it possibly can
*: due to the laws of physics and chemistry
*: Now enter humans
*: if you say that human brains are nothing more than chemical reactions, then everyone acts exactly as they have to
*: since god knows exactly who we are and the choices we'll make, and he knows the future, he sent us here to fail or succeed
*: he already knows
*: he's perfect, and his work is to bring to pass man's immortality
*: so the world is constructed in such a way that the number of people who will obtain celestial glory is maximized
*: god is the only one that can change the course of the world
*: so he sent people here to fail. that doesn't seem very fair to me.
...
*: i believe that given the exact same circumstances and conditions, a person will always make the same decision... unfortunately this experiment is producable
*: *isn't
...
*: everyone's soul has a personality. certain "character points" (think diablo 2) if you will, and based on those points, they'll make certain decisions.

P.S. That's not me ^

 

[KLin]

I see a flamewar about to start. anyone got an extra lawn chair?

 

[MartyMcFly3]

Originally posted by: KLin
I see a flamewar about to start. anyone got an extra lawn chair?

Grabs 2 lawnchairs and busts out the :beer:

 

[Kibbo]

Determinism is incompatible with the concept of free will.

It is also incompatible with the concept of responsibility, and thus the very concept of morality.

There is no useful moral system, secular or religious, that is compatible with determinism.

It's a fun idea, though.

 

[thirtythree]

There won't be a flame war if no one bothers to make a real reply.

EDIT: Thanks Kibbo!

 

[jtusa]

Yay!

 

[5ayle]

wtf is the up w/ the stars? That's wat I wanna know

/sets up tent w/ a flag that sez "Free will is an illusion"

 

[George P Burdell]

blasphemy!!!

 

[thirtythree]

Originally posted by: 5ayle
wtf is the up w/ the stars? That's wat I wanna know

/sets up tent w/ a flag that sez "Free will is an illusion"

Just replaced his screen name with an asterisk.

 

[TheLonelyPhoenix]

I'd like to start a motion that philosophers either start coming up with useful theories or type cinder blocks to each leg and jump in a lake.

 

[5ayle]

Originally posted by: Kibbo
Determinism is incompatible with the concept of free will.

It is also incompatible with the concept of responsibility, and thus the very concept of morality.

There is no useful moral system, secular or religious, that is compatible with determinism.

It's a fun idea, though.

We will so long as we percieve that we have free will, then the ideas of resposibility and morality are compatible because you believe that they apply.

Everything is caused by something else, if you know to all the causes of a particular event then the outcome can be predicted. If omniscient, as God is, then you would know the outcome for all events ever. This is what makes God transgress time. Or rather, explains how we are bound to time, and God forever was and will forever be.


edit: grammar > me

 

[imported_hscorpio]

Originally posted by: Kibbo
Determinism is incompatible with the concept of free will.

It is also incompatible with the concept of responsibility, and thus the very concept of morality.

There is no useful moral system, secular or religious, that is compatible with determinism.

It's a fun idea, though.

I just read Campbell's argument for free will and it is basically what you just stated. When you make a decision to do the right or wrong thing you make a moral effort and you then have a moral responsibility for your decision. If you are not being forced to make the decision then you must have free will since you could have chosen differently. Or somethin like that

Funny that this was brought up at the same time I'm writing a paper on this subject for philosophy class.

 

[mattlear]

Interesting topic. I went through a period of time during undergrad where I had some real issues with the modern concept of God.

From what I have heard / brought up (Roman Catholic) God is all knowing, omniscient, omnipotent, etc... also, that God created man.

So, if God knows everything, including the future, and God created man, how can God truly give one free-will? He creates us to fulfill what he knows we will do in the future. If there is a fork in the road, doesn't he know we will choose left instead of right? Doesn't he know this when he created us?

Being a comp sci major, and writing programs, I really started to ponder this. Creating programs, and watching them execute... aren't we really programmed to do what the future has in store? And if God really is all knowing, how can he create us to choose something other than what He knows we will choose?

I guess for me, the paradox was that God doesn't know everything, meaning we really do have free-will, and make our own choices, or that God does know everything (including the future), and since he created us, we are really just following pre-destination (I think the Puritans believed this, no?).

I'm totally not trying to start a religious war. I'm really not religious at all. I'd like to believe that there is something out there, but when I rationalize things, it just doesn't make sense to me.

Any thoughts?

 

[George P Burdell]

Originally posted by: mattlear
Interesting topic. I went through a period of time during undergrad where I had some real issues with the modern concept of God.

From what I have heard / brought up (Roman Catholic) God is all knowing, omniscient, omnipotent, etc... also, that God created man.

So, if God knows everything, including the future, and God created man, how can God truly give one free-will? He creates us to fulfill what he knows we will do in the future. If there is a fork in the road, doesn't he know we will choose left instead of right? Doesn't he know this when he created us?

Being a comp sci major, and writing programs, I really started to ponder this. Creating programs, and watching them execute... aren't we really programmed to do what the future has in store? And if God really is all knowing, how can he create us to choose something other than what He knows we will choose?

I guess for me, the paradox was that God doesn't know everything, meaning we really do have free-will, and make our own choices, or that God does know everything (including the future), and since he created us, we are really just following pre-destination (I think the Puritans believed this, no?).

I'm totally not trying to start a religious war. I'm really not religious at all. I'd like to believe that there is something out there, but when I rationalize things, it just doesn't make sense to me.

Any thoughts?

:thumbsup:

 

[Goosemaster]

Originally posted by: mattlear
Interesting topic. I went through a period of time during undergrad where I had some real issues with the modern concept of God.

From what I have heard / brought up (Roman Catholic) God is all knowing, omniscient, omnipotent, etc... also, that God created man.

So, if God knows everything, including the future, and God created man, how can God truly give one free-will? He creates us to fulfill what he knows we will do in the future. If there is a fork in the road, doesn't he know we will choose left instead of right? Doesn't he know this when he created us?

Being a comp sci major, and writing programs, I really started to ponder this. Creating programs, and watching them execute... aren't we really programmed to do what the future has in store? And if God really is all knowing, how can he create us to choose something other than what He knows we will choose?

I guess for me, the paradox was that God doesn't know everything, meaning we really do have free-will, and make our own choices, or that God does know everything (including the future), and since he created us, we are really just following pre-destination (I think the Puritans believed this, no?).

I'm totally not trying to start a religious war. I'm really not religious at all. I'd like to believe that there is something out there, but when I rationalize things, it just doesn't make sense to me.

Any thoughts?

Control is an illusion.....to hide the truth....that we get off watching movies about human batteries...