Just a random thought about bailouts profits and outsourcing

[Steeplerot]

If we have to bail these guys out then whatever, I am fine with a LOAN to be paid back by US taxpayers.
But why should it not be attached to a clause like "No more outsourcing".

I hear the arguments for outsourcing "to stay competitive in a global economy etc." and they got their way. And yet they still failed miserably all the time paying crap wages in Mexico and India and stuff.
And now they want US Taxpayers money? The same ones who they layed off?

Makes them seem twice as incompetent when thought of this way, not considering that other countries doing well (Japan) can afford to pay union wages to their Domestic employees.

Your thoughts? Am I off base here?

 

[masteryoda34]

US workers in Japanese based manufacturing plants in the US make significantly less than their Big Three counterparts. (When you calculate all benefits, pensions, etc.)

 

[Steeplerot]

Originally posted by: masteryoda34
US workers in Japanese based manufacturing plants in the US make significantly less than their Big Three counterparts. (When you calculate all benefits, pensions, etc.)

Not really what I was asking about in the op but that brings up another question you gurus may know.
The million dollar question is: How much does labor cost the big three as far as their bottom line? I know the US based manufacturing down south are non-union shops, and Japanese based workers over there have cheaper bennies (UHC). But what % is labor costs to manufacturing? edit:sp

 

[masteryoda34]

Some general numbers off the top of my head that I caught on a newscast the other day.

Big Three Average Labor Cost ~ $73 / hour / worker (With all benefits, etc included.)

Domestic Japanese Plant Labor Cost ~ $45 / hour / worker (With all benefits, etc.)

 

[Steeplerot]

Originally posted by: masteryoda34
Some general numbers off the top of my head that I caught on a newscast the other day.

Big Three Average Labor Cost ~ $73 / hour / worker (With all benefits, etc included.)

Domestic Japanese Plant Labor Cost ~ $45 / hour / worker (With all benefits, etc.)

How much of their Annual operating budget is this I wonder though. And how much of that is CEOs and high management.

 

[GroundedSailor]

Originally posted by: TheRedUnderURBed

Originally posted by: masteryoda34
Some general numbers off the top of my head that I caught on a newscast the other day.

Big Three Average Labor Cost ~ $73 / hour / worker (With all benefits, etc included.)

Domestic Japanese Plant Labor Cost ~ $45 / hour / worker (With all benefits, etc.)

How much of their Annual operating budget is this I wonder though. And how much of that is CEOs and high management.

The figure of $73 includes all costs for retirees, pension paid, health coverage etc, and then the total is divided by the number of current employees to get the figure.

If you remove the legacy costs then the cost per worker is comparable to domestic jap labor. It should also be noted that cost of living is less in the southern states where the japs are located. And they have negotiated tax breaks, unemployment benefits etc from the state govts so they are in a more advantageous position than Detroit big three.

 

[Ozoned]

Originally posted by: TheRedUnderURBed
If we have to bail these guys out then whatever, I am fine with a LOAN to be paid back by US taxpayers.
But why should it not be attached to a clause like "No more outsourcing".

I hear the arguments for outsourcing "to stay competitive in a global economy etc." and they got their way. And yet they still failed miserably all the time paying crap wages in Mexico and India and stuff.
And now they want US Taxpayers money? The same ones who they layed off?

Makes them seem twice as incompetent when thought of this way, not considering that other countries doing well (Japan) can afford to pay union wages to their Domestic employees.

Your thoughts? Am I off base here?

Outsourcing is a function of the free market. Ultimately, it is the consumer that decides if it will succeed or fail. Organize your community, quit buying cheap shit, and the jobs will come back.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: masteryoda34
Some general numbers off the top of my head that I caught on a newscast the other day.

Big Three Average Labor Cost ~ $73 / hour / worker (With all benefits, etc included.)

Domestic Japanese Plant Labor Cost ~ $45 / hour / worker (With all benefits, etc.)

Benefits != Same

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: GroundedSailor

Originally posted by: TheRedUnderURBed

Originally posted by: masteryoda34
Some general numbers off the top of my head that I caught on a newscast the other day.

Big Three Average Labor Cost ~ $73 / hour / worker (With all benefits, etc included.)

Domestic Japanese Plant Labor Cost ~ $45 / hour / worker (With all benefits, etc.)

How much of their Annual operating budget is this I wonder though. And how much of that is CEOs and high management.

The figure of $73 includes all costs for retirees, pension paid, health coverage etc, and then the total is divided by the number of current employees to get the figure.

If you remove the legacy costs then the cost per worker is comparable to domestic jap labor. It should also be noted that cost of living is less in the southern states where the japs are located. And they have negotiated tax breaks, unemployment benefits etc from the state govts so they are in a more advantageous position than Detroit big three.

Exactly, relocate Detroit to the redneck south with free electricity, land and a pack of smokes and watch the bottom line drop for the three as well.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: Ozoned

Originally posted by: TheRedUnderURBed
If we have to bail these guys out then whatever, I am fine with a LOAN to be paid back by US taxpayers.
But why should it not be attached to a clause like "No more outsourcing".

I hear the arguments for outsourcing "to stay competitive in a global economy etc." and they got their way. And yet they still failed miserably all the time paying crap wages in Mexico and India and stuff.
And now they want US Taxpayers money? The same ones who they layed off?

Makes them seem twice as incompetent when thought of this way, not considering that other countries doing well (Japan) can afford to pay union wages to their Domestic employees.

Your thoughts? Am I off base here?

Outsourcing is a function of the free market.

Ultimately, it is the consumer that decides if it will succeed or fail. Organize your community, quit buying cheap shit, and the jobs will come back.

Bullshit - We had uncontrolled free market outsourcing under 6 years of Republican rule and look what the fuck happened.

 

[Deadtrees]

Originally posted by: Ozoned

Originally posted by: TheRedUnderURBed
If we have to bail these guys out then whatever, I am fine with a LOAN to be paid back by US taxpayers.
But why should it not be attached to a clause like "No more outsourcing".

I hear the arguments for outsourcing "to stay competitive in a global economy etc." and they got their way. And yet they still failed miserably all the time paying crap wages in Mexico and India and stuff.
And now they want US Taxpayers money? The same ones who they layed off?

Makes them seem twice as incompetent when thought of this way, not considering that other countries doing well (Japan) can afford to pay union wages to their Domestic employees.

Your thoughts? Am I off base here?

Outsourcing is a function of the free market. Ultimately, it is the consumer that decides if it will succeed or fail. Organize your community, quit buying cheap shit, and the jobs will come back.

True. It's the function of free market but does that justify it's side effects that we're talking about here? I'm sick of those hard core christians who don't have anything but to say 'It's in the bible so it's all good and I gotta follow it no matter what' attitude. Same goes for some dumb hard core capitalists.

 

[Ozoned]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Ozoned

Originally posted by: TheRedUnderURBed
If we have to bail these guys out then whatever, I am fine with a LOAN to be paid back by US taxpayers.
But why should it not be attached to a clause like "No more outsourcing".

I hear the arguments for outsourcing "to stay competitive in a global economy etc." and they got their way. And yet they still failed miserably all the time paying crap wages in Mexico and India and stuff.
And now they want US Taxpayers money? The same ones who they layed off?

Makes them seem twice as incompetent when thought of this way, not considering that other countries doing well (Japan) can afford to pay union wages to their Domestic employees.

Your thoughts? Am I off base here?

Outsourcing is a function of the free market.

Ultimately, it is the consumer that decides if it will succeed or fail. Organize your community, quit buying cheap shit, and the jobs will come back.

Bullshit - We had uncontrolled free market outsourcing under 6 years of Republican rule and look what the fuck happened.

I do realize a lot of outsourcing was by choice. Do I choose to outsource or go broke. I don't know about you, but I am going to do whatever it takes to feed my family.

 

[ProfJohn]

I don't think any of the companies getting bailout funds have issues relating to out sourcing.

Also, the bailouts could help stop out sourcing in the auto industry since those companies would be hyper sensitive to keeping Washington happy and would therefore bend over backwards to keep jobs in the US first.

 

[Steeplerot]

Originally posted by: Ozoned

Originally posted by: TheRedUnderURBed
If we have to bail these guys out then whatever, I am fine with a LOAN to be paid back by US taxpayers.
But why should it not be attached to a clause like "No more outsourcing".

I hear the arguments for outsourcing "to stay competitive in a global economy etc." and they got their way. And yet they still failed miserably all the time paying crap wages in Mexico and India and stuff.
And now they want US Taxpayers money? The same ones who they layed off?

Makes them seem twice as incompetent when thought of this way, not considering that other countries doing well (Japan) can afford to pay union wages to their Domestic employees.

Your thoughts? Am I off base here?

Outsourcing is a function of the free market. Ultimately, it is the consumer that decides if it will succeed or fail. Organize your community, quit buying cheap shit, and the jobs will come back.

How? I have been through smaller towns and I see no other game in town for household good but a Wal-Mart, and I think I have already discussed how in smaller towns people must drive because of short-sighted city planning/urban development.
It is either support outsourcing your own jobs or starve. Not really many options there without making drastic changes to your lifestyle (like growing your own food etc.)

 

[Steeplerot]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn
I don't think any of the companies getting bailout funds have issues relating to out sourcing.

Also, the bailouts could help stop out sourcing in the auto industry since those companies would be hyper sensitive to keeping Washington happy and would therefore bend over backwards to keep jobs in the US first.

You would think it would be a good incentive, yet I do not hear anyone using outsourcing as a bargaining tool in this debate.

 

[Steeplerot]

Originally posted by: Ozoned

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Ozoned

Originally posted by: TheRedUnderURBed
If we have to bail these guys out then whatever, I am fine with a LOAN to be paid back by US taxpayers.
But why should it not be attached to a clause like "No more outsourcing".

I hear the arguments for outsourcing "to stay competitive in a global economy etc." and they got their way. And yet they still failed miserably all the time paying crap wages in Mexico and India and stuff.
And now they want US Taxpayers money? The same ones who they layed off?

Makes them seem twice as incompetent when thought of this way, not considering that other countries doing well (Japan) can afford to pay union wages to their Domestic employees.

Your thoughts? Am I off base here?

Outsourcing is a function of the free market.

Ultimately, it is the consumer that decides if it will succeed or fail. Organize your community, quit buying cheap shit, and the jobs will come back.

Bullshit - We had uncontrolled free market outsourcing under 6 years of Republican rule and look what the fuck happened.

I do realize a lot of outsourcing was by choice. Do I choose to outsource or go broke. I don't know about you, but I am going to do whatever it takes to feed my family.

I think this is what is called a "false choice" because in reality there is none realistically.
Edit: my poor keyboard is dying -sp

 

[Steeplerot]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674


Bullshit - We had uncontrolled free market outsourcing under 6 years of Republican rule and look what the fuck happened.

Can we please keep the flames to a minimum? No need for this although I understand your frustration.

 

[cubby1223]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Bullshit - We had uncontrolled free market outsourcing under 6 years of Republican rule and look what the fuck happened.

We get it, you think Republicans are the biggest evil mankind has ever faced... :roll:

 

[bozack]

Originally posted by: Ozoned
Outsourcing is a function of the free market. Ultimately, it is the consumer that decides if it will succeed or fail. Organize your community, quit buying cheap shit, and the jobs will come back.

Outsorcing isn't always about cheap, in some cases scaleability is the major issue with price a secondary conern.

Some areas certain trades and the labor to support them are a dying breed and were before many started to outsource.

It is unfortunate as I think manufacturing is nothing to be ashamed of but it appears that many in the US don't aspire to be a factory worker, tailor, or laborer and thus not much emphasis is placed on training for such jobs...combine that wtih unions that keep costs of labor high and when compared to other companies you are already behind.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Ozoned

Originally posted by: TheRedUnderURBed
If we have to bail these guys out then whatever, I am fine with a LOAN to be paid back by US taxpayers.
But why should it not be attached to a clause like "No more outsourcing".

I hear the arguments for outsourcing "to stay competitive in a global economy etc." and they got their way. And yet they still failed miserably all the time paying crap wages in Mexico and India and stuff.
And now they want US Taxpayers money? The same ones who they layed off?

Makes them seem twice as incompetent when thought of this way, not considering that other countries doing well (Japan) can afford to pay union wages to their Domestic employees.

Your thoughts? Am I off base here?

Outsourcing is a function of the free market.

Ultimately, it is the consumer that decides if it will succeed or fail. Organize your community, quit buying cheap shit, and the jobs will come back.

Bullshit - We had uncontrolled free market outsourcing under 6 years of Republican rule and look what the fuck happened.

We had market anarchy under the republicans? What, where, when and how?

 

[Steeplerot]

Originally posted by: bozack

Originally posted by: Ozoned
Outsourcing is a function of the free market. Ultimately, it is the consumer that decides if it will succeed or fail. Organize your community, quit buying cheap shit, and the jobs will come back.

Outsorcing isn't always about cheap, in some cases scaleability is the major issue with price a secondary conern.

Some areas certain trades and the labor to support them are a dying breed and were before many started to outsource.

It is unfortunate as I think manufacturing is nothing to be ashamed of but it appears that many in the US don't aspire to be a factory worker, tailor, or laborer and thus not much emphasis is placed on training for such jobs...combine that wtih unions that keep costs of labor high and when compared to other companies you are already behind.

If we actually manufactured stuff again unions would have more of a place, sell more then you buy is such a simple concept. Training our people to be office cubicle zombies will bite us in the ass sooner or later.
And you say actual tradesmen are overpaid?
Management on their fat asses and grown men on the phone/front of a computer all day is not exactly "hard work", not the kind that built the middle class.
I have a lot of respect for union guys pouring steel for 40 years, a lot more then the guy who landed the 100k a year job because he can kiss the best ass.
Edit: It sounds like I am trying to start a blue/white collar flame war but I am sleepy, time to work. Yay 6am, flame me if you want.

 

[Pneumothorax]

Originally posted by: TheRedUnderURBed

I have a lot of respect for union guys pouring steel for 40 years, a lot more then the guy who landed the 100k a year job because he can kiss the best ass.
Edit: It sounds like I am trying to start a blue/white collar flame war but I am sleepy, time to work. Yay 6am, flame me if you want.

That's the problem with the "Big 3" and alot of the financials, most of them are run by the "good 'ol boy's club CEO's" coming out of Ivy league schools and such. Like "Yeah, I knew your father when we went to Yale together, so I'm giving you this $1,000,000 per year job."
In contrast, the top 30+ execs salaries at Toyota (all added up) equals Ford Mullaly CEO's pay. And who loses billions and who makes billions?

 

[Robor]

Originally posted by: Pneumothorax

Originally posted by: TheRedUnderURBed

I have a lot of respect for union guys pouring steel for 40 years, a lot more then the guy who landed the 100k a year job because he can kiss the best ass.
Edit: It sounds like I am trying to start a blue/white collar flame war but I am sleepy, time to work. Yay 6am, flame me if you want.

That's the problem with the "Big 3" and alot of the financials, most of them are run by the "good 'ol boy's club CEO's" coming out of Ivy league schools and such. Like "Yeah, I knew your father when we went to Yale together, so I'm giving you this $1,000,000 per year job."
In contrast, the top 30+ execs salaries at Toyota (all added up) equals Ford Mullaly CEO's pay. And who loses billions and who makes billions?

Is that (bolded) 100% accurate? If so, WTF!? :shocked:

 

[halik]

Because outsourcing is a positive sum game in the end?

The only issue with outsourcing is that the proceeds aren't distributed evenly. Assuming there's at least some sort of competition, the proceeds go in part to consumers (lower price) and in part to the firm (price-cost). Since capital owners (ie people that get the profit from the firm) tend to be high income, and the jobs outsourced are low income, it redistributes wealth.

 

[Kirby]

Originally posted by: TheRedUnderURBed

Originally posted by: dmcowen674


Bullshit - We had uncontrolled free market outsourcing under 6 years of Republican rule and look what the fuck happened.

Can we please keep the flames to a minimum? No need for this although I understand your frustration.

Don't mind Dave. He's a crazed tool.