Jurors Side With Merck in Vioxx Trial

[Amused]

Originally posted by: Naustica
Any of you arguing own Merck stock? Or took Vioxx?

No stock, but my ex's mother who suffers from RA took Vioxx. It was by far the most effective pain reliever for her RA.

 

[eits]

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: eits

Originally posted by: Amused
The problem is, eits, no valid studies exist to prove your snake oil claims.

And that's the meat of it. They work because YOU believe they work. You have no other argument.

And yes, to RA sufferers the loss of Vioxx was a HUGE loss. I know this personally. My ex's mother suffers terribly from RA.

are you kidding me? what makes the study NOT valid enough to be taken into consideration? and what "snake oil claims" have i made??? the only claim i've made is that cox-2 inhibition causes a cardiovascular event, which you've completely overlooked in order to try and discredit me by calling me names like "snake oil salesman." the other OUTLANDISH claim is that vioxx is NOT a miracle drug for arthritis sufferers and there are other therapies which have yielded better results than just taking vioxx alone. omg... i must be trying to scheist people with my completely absurd claims and snake oil salesman antics... what the hell is wrong with me, claiming such nonsense?!

furthermore, why would i believe them to work? could it be because i know friends who have j.c.a. and r.a. and my best friend has a.s. and i know and have seen what has worked and what hasn't worked for them? not to mention that these "invalid" studies back up the claims of my friends? no... it can't be any of that... it's only because i randomly made it up in my mind without any basis or logic behind it... i just one day woke up and thought, "this would be a great day to start making stuff up."

and, no, vioxx is not a HUGE loss to r.a. sufferers. it's only a huge loss to the r.a. sufferers who don't know that there are other therapies and treatments that work better than taking vioxx alone. there are new drugs being made with less lethal side effects which almost stop the progression of inflammatory arthrotides as well as help deal with the pain.

i don't know any "snake oil salesman" who would claim that only their method of treatment is all the patient needs. everyone i know who has arthritis patients co-manages with their rheumatologist(s) and, sometimes, general practitioners. the name of the game is co-management, because just one method is not enough to help to a significant enough degree. medicine alone can't help make arthritis patients feel better and regain mobility, neither can chiropractic, neither can nutrition and supplementation, neither can acupuncture, neither can surgery, neither can anything else. you're claiming that ONLY medicine is the answer and it's not... you're wrong.

the bottom line is that you've resorted to namecalling in order to avoid the issue/arguments i've made because you can't come up with anything better than calling the valid studies invalid and by calling me a snake oil salesman. grow up and start acting your age.

Lots of yelling. Lots of whining. More claims.

And...

Still no valid studies.

And don't tell me about RA, eits. I know about it intimately. Vioxx was a miracle pain reliever for many. For many people it was simply the best drug for their pain.

Seems to me you are in desperate need of reading these pages:

http://www.quackwatch.org/

http://www.chirobase.org/

http://www.homeowatch.org/

wow, you still don't get it.

look, just admit that you can no longer debate this issue because you don't know enough. don't try making false claims like "your studies aren't valid" and "you're a quack," etc. also, don't pretend to know more about rheumatoid arthritis than me... guaranteed you don't.

the bottom line is that, yet again, you can't handle the discussion and you can't make any REAL counterarguments... so, you resort to childish namecalling and denial that the studies i've shown you are valid (without any reason for saying so).

your ex's mother probably did benefit from vioxx... i'm not denying that. what i am saying, however, is that studies have shown that co-management of r.a. with other non-medical therapies is more effective than using vioxx alone.

i still don't see where anything i said so far was "quackery," nor have you provided anything to support your ridiculous claims that arthritis sufferers do NOT benefit more from co-managed care versus strictly pharmaceutical medications.

is your mind slipping in your old age? are you regressing back to when you were 10 years old and the only way of arguing was to start namecalling?

http://www.medifocushealth.com/RH009/Tr...Therapies-for-Rheumatoid-Arthritis.php
http://www.cbc.ca/health/story/2004/12/20/acupuncture-arthritis041220.html
http://www.jr2.ox.ac.uk/bandolier/booth/Arthritis/CSOA.html

 

[crt1530]

Amused: You cannot convert alternative medicine believers. You're trying to win a special olympics race. Just add eits to your buddy list. He's on mine.

 

[eits]

Originally posted by: crt1530
Amused: You cannot convert alternative medicine believers. You're trying to win a special olympics race. Just add eits to your buddy list. He's on mine.

i'm not saying that i don't believe in conventional medicine. i'm saying that conventional medicine together with alternative healthcare has been shown to be more effective than just conventional medicine itself (when pertaining to arthritis). it's not even a wild or outlandish claim or anything close to one...

 

[Mo0o]

Alternative medicine has essentially made a career field out of the placebo effect

 

[Amused]

Originally posted by: Mo0o
Alternative medicine has essentially made a career field out of the placebo effect

Yep. Unfortunately arguing with them is like arguing with a religious fundamentalist. It's like banging your head against a wall.

 

[eits]

Originally posted by: Mo0o
Alternative medicine has essentially made a career field out of the placebo effect

yeah, acupuncture's really all just placebo... nothing happens there. same with chiropractic and nutritional supplementation. don't go around talking trash about things you don't know anything about.

 

[Amused]

Originally posted by: eits

Originally posted by: Mo0o
Alternative medicine has essentially made a career field out of the placebo effect

yeah, acupuncture's really all just placebo... nothing happens there. same with chiropractic and nutritional supplementation. don't go around talking trash about things you don't know anything about.

http://www.quackwatch.org/

http://www.chirobase.org/

http://www.homeowatch.org/

All anyone needs to know.

 

[eits]

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: Mo0o
Alternative medicine has essentially made a career field out of the placebo effect

Yep. Unfortunately arguing with them is like arguing with a religious fundamentalist. It's like banging your head against a wall.

prove it. prove that it's all placebo and that none of it works.

 

[eits]

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: eits

Originally posted by: Mo0o
Alternative medicine has essentially made a career field out of the placebo effect

yeah, acupuncture's really all just placebo... nothing happens there. same with chiropractic and nutritional supplementation. don't go around talking trash about things you don't know anything about.

http://www.quackwatch.org/

http://www.chirobase.org/

http://www.homeowatch.org/

All anyone needs to know.

hahahaha

you STILL can't come up with arguments to support anything that comes out of you? how sad for you

poor amused... he just can't handle getting owned in a topic he doesn't know anything about, so he resorts to namecalling.

 

[Mo0o]

So how does acupuncture actually help the body, and dont give me that BS about qi or energy. Just because the health seems to be improving doesn't mean its the specific needles in those places that does it. People who think they're receiving real treatment will tend to fare better, the definition of the placebo effect.

Alternative medicine practitioners interfere w/ real healthcare by deluting patients into thinking that is all they need and that getting 5 needles up your ass and the root of some green plant will treat cancer. Its basically like saying consulting an astrologist helps supplement sound investment advice when planning your financial future.

 

[Amused]

Originally posted by: eits

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: eits

Originally posted by: Mo0o
Alternative medicine has essentially made a career field out of the placebo effect

yeah, acupuncture's really all just placebo... nothing happens there. same with chiropractic and nutritional supplementation. don't go around talking trash about things you don't know anything about.

http://www.quackwatch.org/

http://www.chirobase.org/

http://www.homeowatch.org/

All anyone needs to know.

hahahaha

you STILL can't come up with arguments to support anything that comes out of you? how sad for you

poor amused... he just can't handle getting owned in a topic he doesn't know anything about, so he resorts to namecalling.

You haven't come anywhere close to "owning" anyone but yourself.

Those 3 links contain any and all arguments I would make. Why waste my time? I bet you haven't even read them.

You have a blind faith, eits. It's pointless for me to waste my time arguing against it. You're so wrapped up in your faith you're even training to make a living from it.

Hell, you even post links supporting my side of the debate and are so deluded you think they support yours.

 

[eits]

Originally posted by: Mo0o
So how does acupuncture actually help the body, and dont give me that BS about qi or energy. Just because the health seems to be improving doesn't mean its the specific needles in those places that does it. People who think they're receiving real treatment will tend to fare better, the definition of the placebo effect.

Alternative medicine practitioners interfere w/ real healthcare by deluting patients into thinking that is all they need and that getting 5 needles up your ass and the root of some green plant will treat cancer

by your claim, sham acupuncture should be able to be just as effective as real acupuncture, which it's clearly not. science still hasn't been able to explain exactly what happens and why it works, just that it does work.

to address your 2nd argument, no one says that. yeah, there might be some old school crackpot who still holds on to his uneducated anti-medicine views or whatever, but that's not a majority of alternative healthcare providers.

 

[eits]

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: eits

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: eits

Originally posted by: Mo0o
Alternative medicine has essentially made a career field out of the placebo effect

yeah, acupuncture's really all just placebo... nothing happens there. same with chiropractic and nutritional supplementation. don't go around talking trash about things you don't know anything about.

http://www.quackwatch.org/

http://www.chirobase.org/

http://www.homeowatch.org/

All anyone needs to know.

hahahaha

you STILL can't come up with arguments to support anything that comes out of you? how sad for you

poor amused... he just can't handle getting owned in a topic he doesn't know anything about, so he resorts to namecalling.

You haven't come anywhere close to "owning" anyone but yourself.

Those 3 links contain any and all arguments I would make. Why waste my time? I bet you haven't even read them.

You have a blind faith, eits. It's pointless for me to waste my time arguing against it. You're so wrapped up in your faith you're even training to make a living from it.

Hell, you even post links supporting my side of the debate and are so deluded you think they support yours.

wrong. i owned you. the fact that you can't come up with any counterarguments and decided to hijack the thread with namecalling instead of sticking to the topic proves it.

you're calling research studies and scientific evidence "blind faith"... good work.

i posted the link that i said i thought you might find interesting because i actually thought you might find it interesting. that's because, unlike some people, i'm respectful and don't try to illicit fights and call people names... especially when i'm in the middle of a discussion. what a horrible way to make a point... calling the other person a name.

maybe if i wrote it in caps, you'll realize that what i'm saying is not "blind faith" or quackery or whatever you want to call it, but good science and common sense:

IF YOU HAVE ARTHRITIS, TAKE MEDICATIONS AND UTILIZE OTHER FORMS OF HEALTHCARE, LIKE PHYSICAL THERAPY, ACUPUNCTURE, SUPPLEMENTATION, CHIROPRACTIC, AND/OR EXERCISE.

honestly... it seems like what you're saying is "no... ONLY take medication... don't even try incorporating anything else into improving your health... just don't even think about it, because that's just quackery."



EDIT: this is just stupid.... yet again, i'm stuck in a thread where you can't stop for a second and stick to the topic because you got beat in an argument and had to resort to namecalling. i'm done with this thread... have fun in this thread alone with the rest of your friends who don't know dick about medicine, science, or healthcare enough to know that cox-2 inhibition could have very easily contributed to this obese, diabetic woman's early death.

 

[Amused]

Originally posted by: eits

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: eits

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: eits

Originally posted by: Mo0o
Alternative medicine has essentially made a career field out of the placebo effect

yeah, acupuncture's really all just placebo... nothing happens there. same with chiropractic and nutritional supplementation. don't go around talking trash about things you don't know anything about.

http://www.quackwatch.org/

http://www.chirobase.org/

http://www.homeowatch.org/

All anyone needs to know.

hahahaha

you STILL can't come up with arguments to support anything that comes out of you? how sad for you

poor amused... he just can't handle getting owned in a topic he doesn't know anything about, so he resorts to namecalling.

You haven't come anywhere close to "owning" anyone but yourself.

Those 3 links contain any and all arguments I would make. Why waste my time? I bet you haven't even read them.

You have a blind faith, eits. It's pointless for me to waste my time arguing against it. You're so wrapped up in your faith you're even training to make a living from it.

Hell, you even post links supporting my side of the debate and are so deluded you think they support yours.

wrong. i owned you. the fact that you can't come up with any counterarguments and decided to hijack the thread with namecalling instead of sticking to the topic proves it.

you're calling research studies and scientific evidence "blind faith"... good work.

i posted the link that i said i thought you might find interesting because i actually thought you might find it interesting. that's because, unlike some people, i'm respectful and don't try to illicit fights and call people names... especially when i'm in the middle of a discussion. what a horrible way to make a point... calling the other person a name.

maybe if i wrote it in caps, you'll realize that what i'm saying is not "blind faith" or quackery or whatever you want to call it, but good science and common sense:

IF YOU HAVE ARTHRITIS, TAKE MEDICATIONS AND UTILIZE OTHER FORMS OF HEALTHCARE, LIKE PHYSICAL THERAPY, ACUPUNCTURE, SUPPLEMENTATION, CHIROPRACTIC, AND/OR EXERCISE.

honestly... it seems like what you're saying is "no... ONLY take medication... don't even try incorporating anything else into improving your health... just don't even think about it, because that's just quackery."



EDIT: this is just stupid.... yet again, i'm stuck in a thread where you can't stop for a second and stick to the topic because you got beat in an argument and had to resort to namecalling. i'm done with this thread... have fun in this thread alone with the rest of your friends who don't know dick about medicine, science, or healthcare enough to know that cox-2 inhibition could have very easily contributed to this obese, diabetic woman's early death.

http://qjmed.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/95/10/643

Another link for you that totally destroys any confusion over the "proof" links that you've claimed made your case. You have no idea what you're posting and half the links actually support my arguments, not yours.

Oh, and exercise and physical therapy are NOT "alternative medicine." When did I say "only medication?" Never. I did, however point to websites that completely debunk much of the snake oil you keep talking about, including the vast majority of your chosen profession.

You've owned no one, eits. The fact that you think you have only goes to prove just how deep your blind faith goes. Arguing with you is like arguing with a creationist. You can demand proof all day and they throw nonsense in your face... then feel smug about it like they've proven something.

You keep accusing me of "name calling." The only name I've called you is "quack." So stop with that bullsh!t. The fact is, I've posted links to all the arguments I need against you and your kind.