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Jurors Side With Merck in Vioxx Trial

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
57,387
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Jurors Side With Merck in Vioxx Trial

Merck has won 10 of 15 cases that have been tried in the growing litigation over Vioxx.

Merck attorneys said Vioxx labels in 1999 and 2002 - well before Patty Schwaller's death - urged caution among users with cardiovascular risks.

By JIM SUHR
AP
EDWARDSVILLE, Ill. (March 27) - Jurors in the Midwest's first trial over the once-blockbuster painkiller Vioxx on Tuesday cleared the drug's maker in the 2003 deadly heart attack of an obese 52-year-old woman.

The jury deliberated over two days before siding with Merck & Co., which had argued that Patty Schwaller's obesity and other health issues might have posed risks that better explain her collapse and sudden death.

Schwaller had taken Vioxx for about 20 months. Her husband claimed that Vioxx contributed to his wife's death and that Merck failed to sufficiently warn consumers that the drug increased the risk of cardiovascular problems.

The victory was Merck's 10th in 15 cases that have been tried in the mushrooming litigation over the drug Merck pulled off the market in 2004 after its research showed it increased the risk of heart attacks and strokes.

During the monthlong trial in this St. Louis suburb, where large jury awards favoring plaintiffs earned Madison County the label by some as a "judicial hellhole," Merck lawyers insisted that Patty Schwaller had several risk factors for heart disease, including obesity, diabetes, high blood pressure and a sedentary lifestyle.

The 5-foot-2 woman's weight fluctuated between 250 and 300 pounds for roughly two decades before her death, attorneys have acknowledged.

But attorneys for Schwaller's widower, Frank Schwaller, pressed that the woman had no heart attacks, strokes or symptoms of congestive heart disease before her fatal collapse, fueling their belief that Vioxx contributed to her demise.

Mikal Watts, a Schwaller attorney told jurors Monday that Merck pushed consumers like Patty Schwaller "over the cliff" by failing to adequately study Vioxx's possible side-effects on people at risk of heart disease. Watts also pressed that Merck publicly downplayed worries by outside researchers that Vioxx could put users at greater risk of heart attacks or strokes.

Top Merck executives "kept cutting the data until it told them what they wanted it to say," Watts insisted.

Watts argued that Merck put profits ahead of patient safety by allegedly rushing Vioxx to market. The drug became the company's No. 2 drug, generating more than $11 billion in sales from May 1999 through September 2004, according to regulatory filings and other information from the company, based in Whitehouse Station, N.J.

"I'm not against companies making money, but not at the expense of their patients," Watts told jurors. Patty Schwaller "shall not have died in vain," Watts argued.

But Dan Ball , an attorney for Merck, accused the Schwaller family's attorney of cherry-picking and misrepresenting Merck e-mails to "assault" the reputation of a company he said was dedicated to making lives better.

Ball said Vioxx labels in 1999 and 2002 - well before Patty Schwaller's death - urged caution among users with cardiovascular risks including hypertension. He urged jurors to look to Schwaller's health troubles in deciding what caused her death.

"A person with these kinds of issues sometimes can die early, tragically, and medicine doesn't have a doggone thing to do with it," Ball told jurors. "Let's try not to forget the undisputed fact that most people who took this medicine had no issues at all."

The trial has been closely watched in Madison County, which has gained national notoriety as a place where lawyers from across the country file cases involving everything from asbestos exposure to medical malpractice, hoping for big payouts.

Merck has been deluged with more than 27,000 personal injury lawsuits and another 265 potential class-action lawsuits alleging harm from Vioxx. The company has reserved $1.64 billion in its Vioxx legal defense fund, saying it plans to fight each lawsuit.

On March 12, jurors in Atlantic City, N.J., found that Vioxx contributed to an Idaho postal worker's 2001 heart attack, reversing the verdict in the man's first trial and hitting Merck with a total of $47.5 million in damages.

If the verdict and damage amounts are upheld, it could be the biggest hit to Merck so far.

In the only Vioxx case with a larger verdict - $51 million awarded last August to Gerald Barnett of Myrtle Beach, S.C. - U.S. District Judge Eldon E. Fallon in New Orleans ordered a new trial on damage award, calling the total "grossly excessive."

A New Jersey Supreme Court panel also is considering whether to allow health insurers and union health plans to sue Merck jointly to recover money they paid for Vioxx prescriptions - a lawsuit potentially worth more than $15 billion. A New Jersey state judge granted that lawsuit class-action status in mid-2005, and a state appellate court ruled last year that the nationwide suit could go forward. Merck is appealing.
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
102,402
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The 5-foot-2 woman's weight fluctuated between 250 and 300 pounds for roughly two decades before her death
that'd do it. but you gotta blame someone.
 

blackllotus

Golden Member
May 30, 2005
1,875
0
0
While Merck's actions in regard to hiding data about Vioxx were totally inexcusable, I don't understand why they haven't won all of their cases. How can one prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Vioxx was the cause of a person's death?
 

jpeyton

Moderator in SFF, Notebooks, Pre-Built/Barebones
Moderator
Aug 23, 2003
25,375
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Unfortunately, they lost 33% of their cases so far, and:

Merck has been deluged with more than 27,000 personal injury lawsuits and another 265 potential class-action lawsuits alleging harm from Vioxx. The company has reserved $1.64 billion in its Vioxx legal defense fund, saying it plans to fight each lawsuit.

Merck is going to pay for Vioxx, one way or another :laugh: $1.64 billion for the defense fund alone, and if they lose 33% of those cases, I cannot begin to imagine what the damages will be. Somewhere in the billions as well.
 

PingSpike

Lifer
Feb 25, 2004
21,758
603
126
I'm not saying drug companies are angels here, or even commented on the validity of this particular drug/company...but I also think people in general have rather unrealistic expectations of what drugs can do and how safe they are.
 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
57,387
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Originally posted by: PingSpike
I'm not saying drug companies are angels here, or even commented on the validity of this particular drug/company...but I also think people in general have rather unrealistic expectations of what drugs can do and how safe they are.

Yeah, pretty much my thoughts as well.

Some very effective drugs have been taken off the market because a small minority of people have bad reactions... or even worse, because people die of unrelated causes and it's blamed on the drugs.

Not a drug, but breast implants are an excellent example.
 

glutenberg

Golden Member
Sep 2, 2004
1,941
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0
It's strange that if this drug has such adverse reactions that it would be able to have its NDA approved by the FDA. But, on the other hand, the amount of bureaucracy in the FDA is also rumored to be true. Without actually seeing the clinical studies for Vioxx, I would say that these cases would be hard for anyone to judge.
 

ponyo

Lifer
Feb 14, 2002
19,688
2,811
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I own quite a bit of Merck stock and bought them shortly after the Vioxx scare crushed the stock. It has since fully recovered to pre-Vioxx price. I wasn't worried with lawsuits when I bought, and I'm not now. I researched American Home Products and Fen-Phen to see how they did before and after and to see the potential correlation. Merck has set aside reserves to cover in case they lose and I like that they are fighting every case. Merck has done great deal of cost cutting in the recent years and their new drug pipeline looks fairly strong and promising. I'm happy to collect my ~5% dividend payment each year along with any share appreciation.
 

eits

Lifer
Jun 4, 2005
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www.integratedssr.com
Originally posted by: Amused
No one is interested?

i am... and this verdict sucks. one of the reasons i went into chiropractic rather than medicine was because of this... it disgusts me. i'm not saying there isn't anything about chiropractic that doesn't disgust me, but this sort of thing is almost universal among the medical model in the u.s.

edit: by "this sort of thing," i'm talking about the pharmaceutical industry's grip on the public and media... they're constantly told that they NEED these medications.

i do believe that drug companies make drugs to increase the quality of life of patients, but i don't believe that they care enough to go through the proper steps to either make a better product (because it'll take longer and cost more money to make, which would decrease the likelihood of insurances covering them and patients buying them) or make it blatantly obvious that people can die by taking these synthetic substances.
 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
57,387
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146
Originally posted by: eits
Originally posted by: Amused
No one is interested?

i am... and this verdict sucks. one of the reasons i went into chiropractic rather than medicine was because of this... it disgusts me. i'm not saying there isn't anything about chiropractic that doesn't disgust me, but this sort of thing is almost universal among the medical model in the u.s.

The verdict disgusts you... why?

Did you read the article?

Why would one automatically assume a 52 year old lifelong obese woman's fatal heart attack would be remarkable enough to blame a drug she was taking?

BTW, I'm glad you separated chiropractic from medicine. One has nothing to do with the other.
 

eits

Lifer
Jun 4, 2005
25,015
3
81
www.integratedssr.com
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: eits
Originally posted by: Amused
No one is interested?

i am... and this verdict sucks. one of the reasons i went into chiropractic rather than medicine was because of this... it disgusts me. i'm not saying there isn't anything about chiropractic that doesn't disgust me, but this sort of thing is almost universal among the medical model in the u.s.

The verdict disgusts you... why?

Did you read the article?

Why would one automatically assume a 52 year old lifelong obese woman's fatal heart attack would be remarkable enough to blame a drug she was taking?

i edited my post... read it again
 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
57,387
19,675
146
Originally posted by: eits
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: eits
Originally posted by: Amused
No one is interested?

i am... and this verdict sucks. one of the reasons i went into chiropractic rather than medicine was because of this... it disgusts me. i'm not saying there isn't anything about chiropractic that doesn't disgust me, but this sort of thing is almost universal among the medical model in the u.s.

The verdict disgusts you... why?

Did you read the article?

Why would one automatically assume a 52 year old lifelong obese woman's fatal heart attack would be remarkable enough to blame a drug she was taking?

i edited my post... read it again

OK... I read the edit and it still is meaningless and does not apply.
 

computeerrgghh

Golden Member
Apr 10, 2005
1,121
0
0
Originally posted by: blackllotus
While Merck's actions in regard to hiding data about Vioxx were totally inexcusable, I don't understand why they haven't won all of their cases. How can one prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Vioxx was the cause of a person's death?

Juror sympathy. Many cases are in areas notorious for handing out large payments for this type of litigation. The prosecuting attorney's also tend to focus more on Merck's marketing strategy for Vioxx rather than the medical aspects. One of the trials they lost was to a man who had a history of heart disease and heart attacks. Its amazing what the right venue can do.
 

eits

Lifer
Jun 4, 2005
25,015
3
81
www.integratedssr.com
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: eits
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: eits
Originally posted by: Amused
No one is interested?

i am... and this verdict sucks. one of the reasons i went into chiropractic rather than medicine was because of this... it disgusts me. i'm not saying there isn't anything about chiropractic that doesn't disgust me, but this sort of thing is almost universal among the medical model in the u.s.

The verdict disgusts you... why?

Did you read the article?

Why would one automatically assume a 52 year old lifelong obese woman's fatal heart attack would be remarkable enough to blame a drug she was taking?

i edited my post... read it again

OK... I read the edit and it still is meaningless and does not apply.

no need to be a dick. just say, "yeah, but you still didn't answer my question."

the verdict sucks, in my opinion, because i feel that the drug contributed to her death... but i don't have enough information to say for sure. plus, there's nothing mentioned about family history of chd/chf.

i just think that this drug contributed to her death... partly because it seems very possible and partly because of my anit-vioxx bias. the merck lawyers are trying to argue that the woman's health status was the cause of her death, but they left out the fact that the drug does cause cardiovascular problems. even if she did have a high percentage of occlusion in her arteries, the drug would have contributed to her death. no drug is without a level of side effects that everyone who takes them experiences.

it also seems like the doctor would be at fault if her heart health were so bad and he gave her a drug that has a higher instance of cardiovascular problems leading to death than other drugs. i'm drawing the assumption that either they tried suing the doctor that the doctor won on the grounds that there were no contraindications in the patient's health to keep her from taking the meds or the family felt that the drug was the catalyst for the woman's death, no matter what her health status was, which is why they ultimately decided to go after the drug company...
 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
57,387
19,675
146
Originally posted by: eits
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: eits
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: eits
Originally posted by: Amused
No one is interested?

i am... and this verdict sucks. one of the reasons i went into chiropractic rather than medicine was because of this... it disgusts me. i'm not saying there isn't anything about chiropractic that doesn't disgust me, but this sort of thing is almost universal among the medical model in the u.s.

The verdict disgusts you... why?

Did you read the article?

Why would one automatically assume a 52 year old lifelong obese woman's fatal heart attack would be remarkable enough to blame a drug she was taking?

i edited my post... read it again

OK... I read the edit and it still is meaningless and does not apply.

no need to be a dick. just say, "yeah, but you still didn't answer my question."

the verdict sucks, in my opinion, because i feel that the drug contributed to her death... but i don't have enough information to say for sure. plus, there's nothing mentioned about family history of chd/chf.

i just think that this drug contributed to her death... partly because it seems very possible and partly because of my anit-vioxx bias. the merck lawyers are trying to argue that the woman's health status was the cause of her death, but they left out the fact that the drug does cause cardiovascular problems. even if she did have a high percentage of occlusion in her arteries, the drug would have contributed to her death. no drug is without a level of side effects that everyone who takes them experiences.

it also seems like the doctor would be at fault if her heart health were so bad and he gave her a drug that has a higher instance of cardiovascular problems leading to death than other drugs. i'm drawing the assumption that either they tried suing the doctor that the doctor won on the grounds that there were no contraindications in the patient's health to keep her from taking the meds or the family felt that the drug was the catalyst for the woman's death, no matter what her health status was, which is why they ultimately decided to go after the drug company...

My gawd. You've made up an entire fairy tale to fit your own irrational bias.

Have you thought of working for Disney?

She was 52. Sedentary all her life. Morbidly obese all her life. She had diabetes AND high blood pressure.

But yeah, the drug killed her... that's it!

Wow...
 

eits

Lifer
Jun 4, 2005
25,015
3
81
www.integratedssr.com
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: eits
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: eits
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: eits
Originally posted by: Amused
No one is interested?

i am... and this verdict sucks. one of the reasons i went into chiropractic rather than medicine was because of this... it disgusts me. i'm not saying there isn't anything about chiropractic that doesn't disgust me, but this sort of thing is almost universal among the medical model in the u.s.

The verdict disgusts you... why?

Did you read the article?

Why would one automatically assume a 52 year old lifelong obese woman's fatal heart attack would be remarkable enough to blame a drug she was taking?

i edited my post... read it again

OK... I read the edit and it still is meaningless and does not apply.

no need to be a dick. just say, "yeah, but you still didn't answer my question."

the verdict sucks, in my opinion, because i feel that the drug contributed to her death... but i don't have enough information to say for sure. plus, there's nothing mentioned about family history of chd/chf.

i just think that this drug contributed to her death... partly because it seems very possible and partly because of my anit-vioxx bias. the merck lawyers are trying to argue that the woman's health status was the cause of her death, but they left out the fact that the drug does cause cardiovascular problems. even if she did have a high percentage of occlusion in her arteries, the drug would have contributed to her death. no drug is without a level of side effects that everyone who takes them experiences.

it also seems like the doctor would be at fault if her heart health were so bad and he gave her a drug that has a higher instance of cardiovascular problems leading to death than other drugs. i'm drawing the assumption that either they tried suing the doctor that the doctor won on the grounds that there were no contraindications in the patient's health to keep her from taking the meds or the family felt that the drug was the catalyst for the woman's death, no matter what her health status was, which is why they ultimately decided to go after the drug company...

My gawd. You've made up an entire fairy tale to fit your own irrational bias.

Have you thought of working for Disney?

She was 52. Sedentary all her life. Morbidly obese all her life. She had diabetes AND high blood pressure.

But yeah, the drug killed her... that's it!

Wow...

i didn't say the drug killed her. i said the drug contributed to her death.
 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
57,387
19,675
146
Originally posted by: eits
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: eits
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: eits
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: eits
Originally posted by: Amused
No one is interested?

i am... and this verdict sucks. one of the reasons i went into chiropractic rather than medicine was because of this... it disgusts me. i'm not saying there isn't anything about chiropractic that doesn't disgust me, but this sort of thing is almost universal among the medical model in the u.s.

The verdict disgusts you... why?

Did you read the article?

Why would one automatically assume a 52 year old lifelong obese woman's fatal heart attack would be remarkable enough to blame a drug she was taking?

i edited my post... read it again

OK... I read the edit and it still is meaningless and does not apply.

no need to be a dick. just say, "yeah, but you still didn't answer my question."

the verdict sucks, in my opinion, because i feel that the drug contributed to her death... but i don't have enough information to say for sure. plus, there's nothing mentioned about family history of chd/chf.

i just think that this drug contributed to her death... partly because it seems very possible and partly because of my anit-vioxx bias. the merck lawyers are trying to argue that the woman's health status was the cause of her death, but they left out the fact that the drug does cause cardiovascular problems. even if she did have a high percentage of occlusion in her arteries, the drug would have contributed to her death. no drug is without a level of side effects that everyone who takes them experiences.

it also seems like the doctor would be at fault if her heart health were so bad and he gave her a drug that has a higher instance of cardiovascular problems leading to death than other drugs. i'm drawing the assumption that either they tried suing the doctor that the doctor won on the grounds that there were no contraindications in the patient's health to keep her from taking the meds or the family felt that the drug was the catalyst for the woman's death, no matter what her health status was, which is why they ultimately decided to go after the drug company...

My gawd. You've made up an entire fairy tale to fit your own irrational bias.

Have you thought of working for Disney?

She was 52. Sedentary all her life. Morbidly obese all her life. She had diabetes AND high blood pressure.

But yeah, the drug killed her... that's it!

Wow...

i didn't say the drug killed her. i said the drug contributed to her death.

Really? Proof?

The problem is, you have none. None at all. And neither did their lawyers.

 

Ultralight

Senior member
Jul 11, 2004
990
1
76
I personally know a woman who served on a Vioxx jury in Atlantic City. After all the presentations and arguments were given they spent three sold days deliberating the evidence (unlike the news media that reported they made their decision in a half a day).

Their verdict: Not Guilty. I asked her why and she said that the prosecution did not support their findings/arguments at all.
 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
57,387
19,675
146
Originally posted by: Ultralight
I personally know a woman who served on a Vioxx jury in Atlantic City. After all the presentations and arguments were given they spent three sold days deliberating the evidence (unlike the news media that reported they made their decision in a half a day).

Their verdict: Not Guilty. I asked her why and she said that the prosecution did not support their findings/arguments at all.

Prosecution? Or Plaintiffs? Not guilty, or no fault?

Was this a criminal trial or lawsuit?
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,337
136
Originally posted by: ElFenix
The 5-foot-2 woman's weight fluctuated between 250 and 300 pounds for roughly two decades before her death
that'd do it. but you gotta blame someone.
Wow... she probably rolled better than she walked.
 

eits

Lifer
Jun 4, 2005
25,015
3
81
www.integratedssr.com
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: eits
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: eits
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: eits
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: eits
Originally posted by: Amused
No one is interested?

i am... and this verdict sucks. one of the reasons i went into chiropractic rather than medicine was because of this... it disgusts me. i'm not saying there isn't anything about chiropractic that doesn't disgust me, but this sort of thing is almost universal among the medical model in the u.s.

The verdict disgusts you... why?

Did you read the article?

Why would one automatically assume a 52 year old lifelong obese woman's fatal heart attack would be remarkable enough to blame a drug she was taking?

i edited my post... read it again

OK... I read the edit and it still is meaningless and does not apply.

no need to be a dick. just say, "yeah, but you still didn't answer my question."

the verdict sucks, in my opinion, because i feel that the drug contributed to her death... but i don't have enough information to say for sure. plus, there's nothing mentioned about family history of chd/chf.

i just think that this drug contributed to her death... partly because it seems very possible and partly because of my anit-vioxx bias. the merck lawyers are trying to argue that the woman's health status was the cause of her death, but they left out the fact that the drug does cause cardiovascular problems. even if she did have a high percentage of occlusion in her arteries, the drug would have contributed to her death. no drug is without a level of side effects that everyone who takes them experiences.

it also seems like the doctor would be at fault if her heart health were so bad and he gave her a drug that has a higher instance of cardiovascular problems leading to death than other drugs. i'm drawing the assumption that either they tried suing the doctor that the doctor won on the grounds that there were no contraindications in the patient's health to keep her from taking the meds or the family felt that the drug was the catalyst for the woman's death, no matter what her health status was, which is why they ultimately decided to go after the drug company...

My gawd. You've made up an entire fairy tale to fit your own irrational bias.

Have you thought of working for Disney?

She was 52. Sedentary all her life. Morbidly obese all her life. She had diabetes AND high blood pressure.

But yeah, the drug killed her... that's it!

Wow...

i didn't say the drug killed her. i said the drug contributed to her death.

Really? Proof?

The problem is, you have none. None at all. And neither did their lawyers.

from what i understand, cox-2 inhibition would cause vasoconstruction and platelet aggregation/clotting. taking a cox-2 inhibitor would inhibit cox-2... most of the time, the magnitude of the effects don't manifest to a degree where it would cause a patient problems, but in some cases it does. chemical/physiological changes happen inside your body anytime you take a drug... it's not like the changes only happen sometimes. it's just that sometimes the effects of the drug are too strong in some people and cause what we call side effects.

everyone who takes any drug gets side effects... most just don't experience them. it's at such a low level that it's undetected by the patient. just because you can't feel it doesn't mean it's not happening. that's why i think that the drug contributed to her death... because cox-2 was inhibited in her system, her vessels were constricted more than they would be had she not been inhibiting cox-2.

say that she DID have, say, 50% occlusion to her coronary artery. according to hagen-poiseuille's law:

v = fluid viscosity
L = length of vessel
R = resistance
r = radius of vessel

R = (vL/r)(8/pi)

let's say that a normal coronary artery is 4mm. let's say her's is 2mm because it's 50% occluded. the normal resistance to a coronary artery would be .001vL... her's, on the other hand, would be .16vL... the reason why this is important is that the vessel wall is taking a lot of resistance due to the occlusion, which affects the blood flow and blood pressure.

now, imagine resistance being further compromised because of vasoconstriction because of cox-2 inhibition... that would even further decrease bloodflow. not only that, but imagine the decrease in the vessel diameter due to plaquing... then, imagine a small blood clot (a result of cox-2 inhibition) trying to pass through there. it would end up getting stuck... especially the coronary artery. she'd end up having a heart attack and dying.

i'm not saying she's the picture of health... i'm saying that cox-2 inhibition probably contributed to her death.
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
102,402
8,574
126
Originally posted by: blackllotus
While Merck's actions in regard to hiding data about Vioxx were totally inexcusable, I don't understand why they haven't won all of their cases. How can one prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Vioxx was the cause of a person's death?

because you only have to prove by a preponderance of the evidence, and then only that vioxx is the proximate cause. so, if it was the straw that broke the camel's back, they might be liable for several 10s of thousands of actual damages and then it's off to the races on non economic and punitive damages
 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
57,387
19,675
146
Originally posted by: eits
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: eits
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: eits
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: eits
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: eits
Originally posted by: Amused
No one is interested?

i am... and this verdict sucks. one of the reasons i went into chiropractic rather than medicine was because of this... it disgusts me. i'm not saying there isn't anything about chiropractic that doesn't disgust me, but this sort of thing is almost universal among the medical model in the u.s.

The verdict disgusts you... why?

Did you read the article?

Why would one automatically assume a 52 year old lifelong obese woman's fatal heart attack would be remarkable enough to blame a drug she was taking?

i edited my post... read it again

OK... I read the edit and it still is meaningless and does not apply.

no need to be a dick. just say, "yeah, but you still didn't answer my question."

the verdict sucks, in my opinion, because i feel that the drug contributed to her death... but i don't have enough information to say for sure. plus, there's nothing mentioned about family history of chd/chf.

i just think that this drug contributed to her death... partly because it seems very possible and partly because of my anit-vioxx bias. the merck lawyers are trying to argue that the woman's health status was the cause of her death, but they left out the fact that the drug does cause cardiovascular problems. even if she did have a high percentage of occlusion in her arteries, the drug would have contributed to her death. no drug is without a level of side effects that everyone who takes them experiences.

it also seems like the doctor would be at fault if her heart health were so bad and he gave her a drug that has a higher instance of cardiovascular problems leading to death than other drugs. i'm drawing the assumption that either they tried suing the doctor that the doctor won on the grounds that there were no contraindications in the patient's health to keep her from taking the meds or the family felt that the drug was the catalyst for the woman's death, no matter what her health status was, which is why they ultimately decided to go after the drug company...

My gawd. You've made up an entire fairy tale to fit your own irrational bias.

Have you thought of working for Disney?

She was 52. Sedentary all her life. Morbidly obese all her life. She had diabetes AND high blood pressure.

But yeah, the drug killed her... that's it!

Wow...

i didn't say the drug killed her. i said the drug contributed to her death.

Really? Proof?

The problem is, you have none. None at all. And neither did their lawyers.

from what i understand, cox-2 inhibition would cause vasoconstruction and platelet aggregation/clotting. taking a cox-2 inhibitor would inhibit cox-2... most of the time, the magnitude of the effects don't manifest to a degree where it would cause a patient problems, but in some cases it does. chemical/physiological changes happen inside your body anytime you take a drug... it's not like the changes only happen sometimes. it's just that sometimes the effects of the drug are too strong in some people and cause what we call side effects.

everyone who takes any drug gets side effects... most just don't experience them. it's at such a low level that it's undetected by the patient. just because you can't feel it doesn't mean it's not happening. that's why i think that the drug contributed to her death... because cox-2 was inhibited in her system, her vessels were constricted more than they would be had she not been inhibiting cox-2.

say that she DID have, say, 50% occlusion to her coronary artery. according to hagen-poiseuille's law:

v = fluid viscosity
L = length of vessel
R = resistance
r = radius of vessel

R = (vL/r)(8/pi)

let's say that a normal coronary artery is 4mm. let's say her's is 2mm because it's 50% occluded. the normal resistance to a coronary artery would be .001vL... her's, on the other hand, would be .16vL... the reason why this is important is that the vessel wall is taking a lot of resistance due to the occlusion, which affects the blood flow and blood pressure.

now, imagine resistance being further compromised because of vasoconstriction because of cox-2 inhibition... that would even further decrease bloodflow. not only that, but imagine the decrease in the vessel diameter due to plaquing... then, imagine a small blood clot (a result of cox-2 inhibition) trying to pass through there. it would end up getting stuck... especially the coronary artery. she'd end up having a heart attack and dying.

i'm not saying she's the picture of health... i'm saying that cox-2 inhibition probably contributed to her death.

And yet, after all that, you have no medical proof it caused or even contributed to her death. Only speculation.

Meanwhile, a life changing drug that freed millions from the constant pain of RA and OA is taken off the market because fat, old lazy women with diabetes, high blood pressure and other obesity and genetic related problems had random heart attacks... heart attacks they were destined for anyhow.
 

glutenberg

Golden Member
Sep 2, 2004
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Originally posted by: eits
from what i understand, cox-2 inhibition would cause vasoconstruction and platelet aggregation/clotting. taking a cox-2 inhibitor would inhibit cox-2... most of the time, the magnitude of the effects don't manifest to a degree where it would cause a patient problems, but in some cases it does. chemical/physiological changes happen inside your body anytime you take a drug... it's not like the changes only happen sometimes. it's just that sometimes the effects of the drug are too strong in some people and cause what we call side effects.

everyone who takes any drug gets side effects... most just don't experience them. it's at such a low level that it's undetected by the patient. just because you can't feel it doesn't mean it's not happening. that's why i think that the drug contributed to her death... because cox-2 was inhibited in her system, her vessels were constricted more than they would be had she not been inhibiting cox-2.

say that she DID have, say, 50% occlusion to her coronary artery. according to hagen-poiseuille's law:

v = fluid viscosity
L = length of vessel
R = resistance
r = radius of vessel

R = (vL/r)(8/pi)

let's say that a normal coronary artery is 4mm. let's say her's is 2mm because it's 50% occluded. the normal resistance to a coronary artery would be .001vL... her's, on the other hand, would be .16vL... the reason why this is important is that the vessel wall is taking a lot of resistance due to the occlusion, which affects the blood flow and blood pressure.

now, imagine resistance being further compromised because of vasoconstriction because of cox-2 inhibition... that would even further decrease bloodflow. not only that, but imagine the decrease in the vessel diameter due to plaquing... then, imagine a small blood clot (a result of cox-2 inhibition) trying to pass through there. it would end up getting stuck... especially the coronary artery. she'd end up having a heart attack and dying.

i'm not saying she's the picture of health... i'm saying that cox-2 inhibition probably contributed to her death.

It may have contributed to her death but the warnings about cox-2 inhibitors are generally displayed fairly clearly on Vioxx labels. She knew she was overweight, diabetic, and had high blood pressure, which seems to be all the diseases and characteristics of those who shouldn't take Vioxx, and yet she took it anyways. If there's a reliance issue, at most the doctor is at fault for prescribing Vioxx to someone that's obviously at risk.