Jump training? In conjunction with SS?

[scootermaster]

Goal:

I want to be able to jump higher. Dunking [again], would be cool, but moreso for beach/sand volleyball (I don't know if that makes a difference, but that's where I'll be using this more. It's obviously harder to jump on sand, but presumably the training translates. No?)

Background:

6'4", 210. Been doing SS for about a year and a half. Pretty crappy vert as of now (I'd put it around 18ish inches, maybe? Perhaps less on sand.

Numbers:

S: currently 255. Max ever, I think, is probably 270 (for 3x5)
D: currently 240. Reset for form. Max ever is 315 (1x5). For some reason I'm weak at this, but I'm going to start not giving a shit, and just grip it and rip it, and pray my back survives.
C: currently 135. Max ever is 150 (3x5). Never really happy with the form here. Only been doing it for about 8 months.
OH: Currently 130. Max ever is 145 (3x5). Haven't been able to break past that. Hopefully this time/reset.
B: Current 220. Max ever is 245 (3x5) Never been able to break much past that either.

The thought:

Since I've reset squats a bunch of times (first, a bunch of times back to 135 for form, then a bunch for 185 when I was struggling with 220ish, and now I reset to 225 when I struggle with 260+) I was thinking of maybe not doing the raising the weight 3x a week thing. Granted, it's possible there's other reasons for my stalling, but I can't seem to get past 270ish. Now, maybe that's just how it works for me (3 stalls and 2 months for every 10 pounds) but it doesn't seem like it's supposed to work like that. But I have gotten stronger, so who knows?

Anyway, so my thought was: in order to save my legs, and save myself from being discouraged (it sucks not being able to lift stuff and then having to reset and not being able to try it again for a couple of weeks) and to just try something new, I thought maybe I would replace some [heavy] squat work with specific jump training. Maybe lift heavy (i.e. raise weight) once a week, with maybe a lighter day, or something, combined with the jump stuff.

I don't know much/anything about this, so I thought I'd just throw it out there. I don't need to switch any time soon, and I'm not trying to dodge squats or deads or anything else (I'd keep the rest of the routine the same, it's mostly just to save my legs so I can actually play).

Thoughts?

 

[SociallyChallenged]

Really, the most important lifts for you vertical jump are the explosive olympic lifts - squat clean, snatch, hang cleans, power cleans. It seems like you're not doing enough of those if your vertical is 18 inches. Incorporating plyo's are good, but supplementary to the explosive lifts.

Also, I just wanted to point out that you should not "just grip it and rip it, and pray [your] back survives" with deadlifts. Don't be an idiot. Do you know how many nerves go through your vertebral spine? Do you want to risk things like potential paralysis and loss of felling? No. Fix your form, once and for all. Perhaps you should do to a general CrossFit seminar to show you how to do the main lifts. It's very, very important. Try sumo-deadlift. Some people are poorly proportioned for the traditional deadlift.

Another option, instead of SS, is a cyclic training program. It involves varying volume, intensity, and total load throughout the week. This tricks the body into adapting more quickly. It incorporates heavy, light (75-85% weight of heavy), and medium (85-90% of heavy) days during the week and allows for significant hypertrophy and neural adaptations. It seems that you are not adapting well to the linear program, your form is significantly off on several movements, or that you stop lifting when your body is challenged. I'd suggest that it couldn't hurt to try the cyclic program. The only problem is that you either have to figure everything out and write it for yourself or you have to have a more experienced coach/professional do it for you.

 

[scootermaster]

Really, the most important lifts for you vertical jump are the explosive olympic lifts - squat clean, snatch, hang cleans, power cleans. It seems like you're not doing enough of those if your vertical is 18 inches. Incorporating plyo's are good, but supplementary to the explosive lifts.

Also, I just wanted to point out that you should not "just grip it and rip it, and pray [your] back survives" with deadlifts. Don't be an idiot. Do you know how many nerves go through your vertebral spine? Do you want to risk things like potential paralysis and loss of felling? No. Fix your form, once and for all. Perhaps you should do to a general CrossFit seminar to show you how to do the main lifts. It's very, very important. Try sumo-deadlift. Some people are poorly proportioned for the traditional deadlift.

Another option, instead of SS, is a cyclic training program. It involves varying volume, intensity, and total load throughout the week. This tricks the body into adapting more quickly. It incorporates heavy, light (75-85% weight of heavy), and medium (85-90% of heavy) days during the week and allows for significant hypertrophy and neural adaptations. It seems that you are not adapting well to the linear program, your form is significantly off on several movements, or that you stop lifting when your body is challenged. I'd suggest that it couldn't hurt to try the cyclic program. The only problem is that you either have to figure everything out and write it for yourself or you have to have a more experienced coach/professional do it for you.

Okay...Things:

1). I wasn't being totally literal with the deads thing. Deadlifts are hard. I, personally, have a serious fear of injuring myself, and I think it sometimes gets in the way -- mentally, and therefore physically -- of me pushing myself. It's not like I'm going to throw 500 on there and make my back look like a donut. I'm just saying that I probably need to just push through and keep lifting heavier weight. "Grip it and rip it" was a shorthand for that. I probably am not the best candidate for deadlifts given that with my shoulders slightly in front of the bar, and my ass as far down as it'll go to maintain that -- given proper foot positioning -- my is back way too horizontal. Or, well, not "too" horizontal (that's just how my body is) but too horizontal to be really good at deadlifting. Thems the breaks.

2). I have no real idea what my vert is. i don't have one of those vert measuring stick push-y things, unfortunately, which would be great to track my progress. I just guestimated 18 inches. I'm 210+ pounds, and I'm 32, and I've never done any jump training, and I'm not a particularly genetic athlete type, so it's the best I've got to go on. I can dunk anything I can palm, on a regulation hoop, if that helps. I just mean that if I was to take a step or two, and jump straight legged, my shoes'd probably be around 18" off the ground.

3). I can look into some of the other explosive lifts.

4). As far as my progress, I'd say it's a combination of both. With bench, for example, I'm not worrying about hurting myself, so I can push myself as far as I can go, assuming I have a spotter. I'm guessing I'm not going to just blast past 260 into the stratosphere....that's just what I can do for the present. With squats and deads, I'm more worried, which gets in my head. I need to get a camera in the gym to check my form [again]. With cleans, I've had no formal training, and it's not that I think my form is "bad", I just use a combination of things [doesn't feel right -- perhaps because it's a new motion, I can't lift as much as I think I "should" be able to, etc] to come to the conclusion that my form isn't perfect. Well, no one's form is really perfect. I probably shouldn't stress about it so much, since it does seem to effect my workouts. And yes, when I hit the high end of my lifts, I get discouraged if I can't go any further, and that just creates a cycle.

At any rate, thanks for responding. I'm not looking to make any change immediately, I was just interested in seeing what was out there in terms of jump training.

 

[SociallyChallenged]

Ok, good. Those are some honest answers - I appreciate that. Some things that can help your mental game: perfecting your form will rule out major injury. If you have great form, you really don't have to worry about slipping a disk or tweaking your knee (in the traditional SS lifts, that is). I feel that if you got form down, you'd improve your confidence and be more willing to thoroughly challenge yourself. I would honestly bet you have a lot more to go on SS if you could trust yourself. I feel like having good form is a large factor in trusting yourself. If you know you do it right, then you know you aren't gonna botch it. The psychological aspect of performance is just as important as the physical aspect. I hope that helps.

 

[brikis98]

For a 210lb guy who has been doing SS for 1.5 years, your numbers seem a bit too low for stalling. In terms of strength training, there are two likely possibilities:

1. Your technique is holding you back. This is the most likely case and sounds especially true on the deadlift. I wouldn't be surprised if you had issues on other lifts as well. If you own the SS book, re-read it and follow the cues. If you don't, get it - spending $30 and a few hours reading is well worth it considering how many hours you spend in the gym doing this stuff. You could also post form check videos online for critique or try to find a coach to help you out (such as a CF seminar).

2. Beginner programming is no longer working for you. It doesn't seem likely at those weights, but everyone is different, so it could certainly explain the stalling. In that case, your best bet is to switch to intermediate programming where the weight goes up once every ~3 sessions rather than every single session. Something like Bill Starr 5x5 or The Texas Method would be a natural progression from SS.

Now, as for vertical jump in particular, it is worth mentioning that the squat and deadlift are two of the best strength exercises to improve vertical jump. They work all the relevant muscles through a huge range of motion and give you an awesome strength base from which you can build some serious jumping ability. In addition to maximal strength, power training helps your vertical jump as well. O-lifts - snatch, clean & jerk and their offshoots - are pretty much the best available tools for developing power. If the "C" in your numbers stands for clean, then 150 is awfully low and an indicator that you need to work on your power generation. Again, technique is likely the cause, so do everything you can to fix that. O-lifts are tough to learn, but not impossible with some serious effort, and the benefits are VERY worthwhile.

Other useful exercises to work on are sprinting, standing long jump, box jumps, plyometrics and honestly, just practicing jumping again and again. How to fit this into your routine depends on just how important the vertical jump is to your goals. If it is head and shoulders above everything else, you'll need to dedicate some serious time to it. If it is just a passing hobby, adding extra o-lifts to your workout and doing some sprint/jump training at the end (or even on rest days) may be enough.

Finally, two resources you may want to look into: one is the "Vertical Jump Bible" by Kelly Baggett - I've heard lots of good things about it, though I haven't read it myself. The other is this CF messageboard thread which echoes much of what I've said above.