Judicial Watch Releases Clinton Health Care Task Force Memos And Records

[Pabster]

Story here.

Well, what have we here?

I must say, I wasn't surprised one bit. Rockefeller was always a crook, and this just exposes him further.

These memorandums and records (and these are just a small taste; Millions of additional records are being kept locked up) clearly show a pattern and willingness of Clinton and Co. to use government power against individuals who did not tow the Clinton line. The politics of personal destruction, straight from the inventors.

 

[jonks]

It's "toe" the line I'd expect you to know that by now.
And you question when people post mediamatters stuff. JudicialWatch?
About Us: Judicial Watch, Inc., a conservative, non-partisan educational foundation, promotes transparency, accountability and integrity in government, politics and the law.

Featuring such non-partisan stories as:
Sen.Ted Kennedy Outlives Family He Ruined

And headed by a resume forger?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Fitton
Tom Fitton is the current president of Judicial Watch, a self-described "conservative, non-partisan, educational foundation,"

Fitton himself has been with Judicial Watch since 1998, and has been heading the organization since 2003, when its former chief, Larry Klayman, left in order to pursue a run for the United States Senate in the state of Florida.

Klayman would attempt to reclaim control of Judicial Watch's daily operations after he lost the Republican primary in 2004, citing fiscal mismanagement, the violation of a severance package offered to Klayman upon his departure, and a mischaracterization of Fitton's academic and professional credentials when Fitton was first hired as a staff member of Judicial Watch.

Although Fitton asserts that he holds a B.A. in English, Klayman disputes that assertion and claims that Fitton admitted that he does not in fact have a Bachelor's degree. This dispute is one of the points of contention in a lawsuit brought against Fitton by Klayman in 2006.

 

[Pabster]

How about commenting on the facts here, the memos and reports released. They're straight from the Clinton Presidential Library, and what you think of Judicial Watch is irrelevant.

 

[jonks]

Originally posted by: Pabster
How about commenting on the facts here, the memos and reports released. They're straight from the Clinton Presidential Library, and what you think of Judicial Watch is irrelevant.

I read the first bullet and stopped. Here it is:
? A June 18, 1993 internal Memorandum entitled, ?A Critique of Our Plan,? authored by someone with the initials ?P.S.,? makes the startling admission that critics of Hillary?s health care reform plan were correct: ?I can think of parallels in wartime, but I have trouble coming up with a precedent in our peacetime history for such broad and centralized control over a sector of the economy?Is the public really ready for this?... none of us knows whether we can make it work well or at all??

Opinions disagreeing with her health plan can be correct? It's called debate. I don't need to justify how an article puncutated with partisan charateristizations isn't a great source. When someone who hasn't declared Hillary as Satan weighs in, I'll read it.

 

[palehorse]

Pabster's correct on this one Sirjonk... unless you're questioning the authenticity of the documents themselves, then the source, and any perceived agenda, are irrelevant.

I need some time to look through the actual memos... and I'm sure that we'll soon hear this in the mainstream news if there's anything with any teeth in those documents.

 

[Fern]

Originally posted by: sirjonk
It's "toe" the line I'd expect you to know that by now.
And you question when people post mediamatters stuff. JudicialWatch?
About Us: Judicial Watch, Inc., a conservative, non-partisan educational foundation, promotes transparency, accountability and integrity in government, politics and the law.

Featuring such non-partisan stories as:
Sen.Ted Kennedy Outlives Family He Ruined

And headed by a resume forger?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Fitton
Tom Fitton is the current president of Judicial Watch, a self-described "conservative, non-partisan, educational foundation,"

Fitton himself has been with Judicial Watch since 1998, and has been heading the organization since 2003, when its former chief, Larry Klayman, left in order to pursue a run for the United States Senate in the state of Florida.

Klayman would attempt to reclaim control of Judicial Watch's daily operations after he lost the Republican primary in 2004, citing fiscal mismanagement, the violation of a severance package offered to Klayman upon his departure, and a mischaracterization of Fitton's academic and professional credentials when Fitton was first hired as a staff member of Judicial Watch.

Although Fitton asserts that he holds a B.A. in English, Klayman disputes that assertion and claims that Fitton admitted that he does not in fact have a Bachelor's degree. This dispute is one of the points of contention in a lawsuit brought against Fitton by Klayman in 2006.

If you don't like the "messanger", disregard thier analysis. Or examine it critically.

But I see no valid reason to ignore the the underlying Clinton documents they have received. If you don't like Judicial Watch, examine those documents yourself and come to your own conclusion.

Fern

 

[Pabster]

sirjonk, give it up. I don't care about any bias vis-a-vi Judicial Watch or what some editors' background is. The actual PDF copies of the memorandums in question are available, in entirety, at the link provided.

Are you questioning the authenticity of those documents? Otherwise...

 

[jonks]

My post dealt with the characterization of the docs, not the docs themselves. Did you read the docs before you posted pabst, or just the article, to come up with never before heard phrases like "politics of personal destruction"?

Anyway, like I said, I'll wait to see what another source writes about the docs. I have no doubt we'll hear plenty of interpretations.

 

[fskimospy]

Is this the best the anti Hillary people can do? Really? The only item of any note in there was that it appears that they were collecting information on their political opponents using government computers (which you aren't allowed to do). This contrasts sharply with every other political operation on the planet that.... collects information on their political opponents but with personal computers. Sorry if I'm having trouble generating outrage over this.

Having a debate about whether a plan is a good idea or not before implementing it!? Noooooooo! Attacking your opponents!? DEAR GOD NO... NO POLITICIAN DOES THAT.

This latest anti Hillary thread is one of the saddest yet.

 

[Pabster]

Originally posted by: sirjonk
My post dealt with the characterization of the docs, not the docs themselves. Did you read the docs before you posted pabst, or just the article, to come up with never before heard phrases like "politics of personal destruction"?

Anyway, like I said, I'll wait to see what another source writes about the docs. I have no doubt we'll hear plenty of interpretations.

Yes, I read them.

These were actually posted yesterday so I've had plenty of time to review them.

Now I'd like to see the other 3 million records.

 

[Pabster]

Originally posted by: eskimospy
Is this the best the anti Hillary people can do? Really? The only item of any note in there was that it appears that they were collecting information on their political opponents using government computers (which you aren't allowed to do). This contrasts sharply with every other political operation on the planet that.... collects information on their political opponents but with personal computers. Sorry if I'm having trouble generating outrage over this.

Having a debate about whether a plan is a good idea or not before implementing it!? Noooooooo! Attacking your opponents!? DEAR GOD NO... NO POLITICIAN DOES THAT.

This latest anti Hillary thread is one of the saddest yet.

Ah, the apologist, right on cue.

Weren't you one of the pansies bitching about some e-mails from the Bush White House and how they shouldn't have been using government PCs to send those e-mails? Hmmmm....

Rockefellers' memo clearly details a concerted plan and strategy by Clinton and Co. to destroy anybody that came in their path. By any means necessary. It's a damning portrait of corruption which only a partisan hack ... like yourself ... could dismiss.

 

[Fern]

Originally posted by: eskimospy
Is this the best the anti Hillary people can do? Really? The only item of any note in there was that it appears that they were collecting information on their political opponents using government computers (which you aren't allowed to do). This contrasts sharply with every other political operation on the planet that.... collects information on their political opponents but with personal computers. Sorry if I'm having trouble generating outrage over this.

Having a debate about whether a plan is a good idea or not before implementing it!? Noooooooo! Attacking your opponents!? DEAR GOD NO... NO POLITICIAN DOES THAT.

This latest anti Hillary thread is one of the saddest yet.

I think you too easily dismiss this info.

HRC has claimed 35 yrs worth of experience etc, yet has produced nothing much beyond self-congratulatory statments and boasts (some fo which have been contradicted by Clinton WH staffers). These records are limited to be sure, but given the dearth of info to date these should be examined for clues to what a HRC presidency might bring.

Oh, if it was the GWB WH collecting info on opponents using gov computers we'd have posters here freaking the fvck out.

Fern

 

[theeedude]

Usual Clinton bashing tripe from the usual Clinton bashers 😀
Judicial watch is paid for by Richard Mellon Scaife, who was obsessed with overturning the will of the American people and ending the presidency of Bill Clinton.
These are the types of scum that Clinton bashers choose to align themselves with.

 

[Pabster]

Originally posted by: senseamp
Usual Clinton bashing tripe from the usual Clinton bashers 😀
Judicial watch is paid for by Richard Mellon Scaife, who was obsessed with overturning the will of the American people and ending the presidency of Bill Clinton.
These are the types of scum that Clinton bashers choose to align themselves with.

It's the message, not the man. :laugh:

Now do you have any comments on the actual documents themselves?

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: Pabster

Ah, the apologist, right on cue.

Weren't you one of the pansies bitching about some e-mails from the Bush White House and how they shouldn't have been using government PCs to send those e-mails? Hmmmm....

Rockefellers' memo clearly details a concerted plan and strategy by Clinton and Co. to destroy anybody that came in their path. By any means necessary. It's a damning portrait of corruption which only a partisan hack ... like yourself ... could dismiss.

Ahhh the rabid right winger with a crush on Hillary, right on cue.

You're an idiot. Every politician collects opposition research to attack their opponents with. Not doing that is called "really stupid". Did you even read the memo? How is it different then what every administration does?

I don't remember "bitching" like a "pansy" about Bush's email useage, but whatever... it's certainly against the rules either way. If I were trying to muster up some outrage against Bush however, his misuse of government email would rank pretty god damn low on the list. If this is the sort of thing that these records uncover, I don't think you'll find many people who give much of a shit.

Don't worry though Pabster, maybe if you generate a few more anti-hillary threads she'll notice you. Maybe you could try pulling her pigtails at recess.

 

[Sinsear]

Originally posted by: senseamp
Usual Clinton bashing tripe from the usual Clinton bashers 😀
Judicial watch is paid for by Richard Mellon Scaife, who was obsessed with overturning the will of the American people and ending the presidency of Bill Clinton.
These are the types of scum that Clinton bashers choose to align themselves with.

You HRC Loveboat is going to sink; and I'm going to laugh it all the way down.

 

[jonks]

OK. I read the document.
The article, AS I GUESSED, is a piece of horse shit. Judicial Watch's claim:

? A ?Confidential? May 26, 1993 Memorandum from Senator Jay Rockefeller (D-WV) to Hillary Clinton entitled, ?Health Care Reform Communications,? which criticizes the Task Force as a ?secret cabal of Washington policy ?wonks?? that has engaged in ?choking off information? from the public regarding health care reform. The memorandum suggests that Hillary Clinton ?use classic opposition research? to attack those who were excluded by the Clinton Administration from Task Force deliberations and to ?expose lifestyles, tactics and motives of lobbyists? in order to deflect criticism. Senator Rockefeller also suggested news organizations ?are anxious and willing to receive guidance [from the Clinton Administration] on how to time and shape their [news] coverage.?

Go open the second pdf. Under "Part II. Current Perceptions" page 4, it says

The Task Force:
- Seen as a secret cabal of Washington policy "wonks"


Pabst, he was characterizing how her critics see her task force, NOT ENDORSING SUCH A CRITICISM.

I don't have to read any more until factcheck or someone else gets a hold of this.

 

[Pabster]

Originally posted by: sirjonk
Pabst, he was characterizing how her critics see her task force, NOT ENDORSING SUCH A CRITICISM.

I don't have to read any more until factcheck or someone else gets a hold of this.

He was laying out plans for opposition research and politics of personal destruction.

Whether he is personally endorsing criticisms various others offered is of no merit.

 

[theeedude]

Originally posted by: Sinsear

Originally posted by: senseamp
Usual Clinton bashing tripe from the usual Clinton bashers 😀
Judicial watch is paid for by Richard Mellon Scaife, who was obsessed with overturning the will of the American people and ending the presidency of Bill Clinton.
These are the types of scum that Clinton bashers choose to align themselves with.

You HRC Loveboat is going to sink; and I'm going to laugh it all the way down.

This is where you are mistaken. I am not against Obama or even any of the electable Republicans.
They are all liberals. Conservatism is bankrupt, so I have nothing to lose in 2008 as far as issues.
Since it's already assured that whoever gets elected will be a liberal, I can focus on the extra credit.
At this point for me, it's about humiliating the opposition, and Hillary is the best one to do it. If they cannot stop her from being elected president with all their hatred, they are impotent losers, and that will soon be made very obvious for everyone. 😀

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: Fern

I think you too easily dismiss this info.

HRC has claimed 35 yrs worth of experience etc, yet has produced nothing much beyond self-congratulatory statments and boasts (some fo which have been contradicted by Clinton WH staffers). These records are limited to be sure, but given the dearth of info to date these should be examined for clues to what a HRC presidency might bring.

Oh, if it was the GWB WH collecting info on opponents using gov computers we'd have posters here freaking the fvck out.

Fern

It's not like they were using some sort of secret government resources to create this database, they were just using government computers for compiling the information they got. (by everything I get from the memos at least... I certainly see nothing in them that would imply otherwise). That's like getting angry that someone's typing up some personal email on company time. Yes its not supposed to happen, but if you are being honest with yourself you'll realize that it's not really anything to get too worked up about. Moreover I bet this happens every single day, even now.

If people were freaking out because GWB was using a government computer to make an excel spreadsheet of his enemies, then there would be two problems. First of all, so many people hate GWB at this point that it would take a lot of government man hours to compile, but more importantly if people were really mad about they they would be just as stupid as people being mad about this. That is, really stupid.

 

[theeedude]

Originally posted by: Pabster

Originally posted by: senseamp
Usual Clinton bashing tripe from the usual Clinton bashers 😀
Judicial watch is paid for by Richard Mellon Scaife, who was obsessed with overturning the will of the American people and ending the presidency of Bill Clinton.
These are the types of scum that Clinton bashers choose to align themselves with.

It's the message, not the man. :laugh:

Now do you have any comments on the actual documents themselves?

I have better things to do than read some 15 year old paperwork.

 

[Fern]

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: Pabster

Originally posted by: senseamp
Usual Clinton bashing tripe from the usual Clinton bashers 😀
Judicial watch is paid for by Richard Mellon Scaife, who was obsessed with overturning the will of the American people and ending the presidency of Bill Clinton.
These are the types of scum that Clinton bashers choose to align themselves with.

It's the message, not the man. :laugh:

Now do you have any comments on the actual documents themselves?

I have better things to do than read some 15 year old paperwork.

What? Like hanging around here defending HRC on some board?

Yeah, why let any facts get in the way of your opinion about her.

Fern

 

[theeedude]

Originally posted by: Fern

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: Pabster

Originally posted by: senseamp
Usual Clinton bashing tripe from the usual Clinton bashers 😀
Judicial watch is paid for by Richard Mellon Scaife, who was obsessed with overturning the will of the American people and ending the presidency of Bill Clinton.
These are the types of scum that Clinton bashers choose to align themselves with.

It's the message, not the man. :laugh:

Now do you have any comments on the actual documents themselves?

I have better things to do than read some 15 year old paperwork.

What? Like hanging around here defending HRC on some board?

Yes, at least the posts here are from today, and not some 15 year old TP that some Clinton hating hacks dredged up. Although plenty of Clinton hating hacks here too 😀

 

[Pabster]

Originally posted by: senseamp
I have better things to do than read some 15 year old paperwork.

Then get the fuck out of the thread. We don't need trolling.

The documents are there to be read and commented upon.

 

[Craig234]

Originally posted by: Fern

Originally posted by: sirjonk
It's "toe" the line I'd expect you to know that by now.
And you question when people post mediamatters stuff. JudicialWatch?
About Us: Judicial Watch, Inc., a conservative, non-partisan educational foundation, promotes transparency, accountability and integrity in government, politics and the law.

Featuring such non-partisan stories as:
Sen.Ted Kennedy Outlives Family He Ruined

And headed by a resume forger?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Fitton
Tom Fitton is the current president of Judicial Watch, a self-described "conservative, non-partisan, educational foundation,"

Fitton himself has been with Judicial Watch since 1998, and has been heading the organization since 2003, when its former chief, Larry Klayman, left in order to pursue a run for the United States Senate in the state of Florida.

Klayman would attempt to reclaim control of Judicial Watch's daily operations after he lost the Republican primary in 2004, citing fiscal mismanagement, the violation of a severance package offered to Klayman upon his departure, and a mischaracterization of Fitton's academic and professional credentials when Fitton was first hired as a staff member of Judicial Watch.

Although Fitton asserts that he holds a B.A. in English, Klayman disputes that assertion and claims that Fitton admitted that he does not in fact have a Bachelor's degree. This dispute is one of the points of contention in a lawsuit brought against Fitton by Klayman in 2006.

If you don't like the "messanger", disregard thier analysis. Or examine it critically.

But I see no valid reason to ignore the the underlying Clinton documents they have received. If you don't like Judicial Watch, examine those documents yourself and come to your own conclusion.

Fern

Nice theory, but where there are sources which are simply paud propagandists with a history of publishing lies, it can overwhelm honest debate to address them.

How about I give you a list of 500 allegations for your next 500 posts, each of which you have to research and write a response to, with all of them funded lies?

You wouldn't want to do that, and organizations like Judicial Watch pose just that sort of problem.

I'd say, give them a fair chance, and when they show they are just such a propaganda organization over many examples, stop wasting your time.

By the way, the same crowd here insisting not to look at the source seems like the same one that mocks any left-wing sourcing, however accurate.

Admittedly, not everything on such sites is completely false, but you can get a lot better summary of the legitimate portions from more reliable sites.