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Judge: Parents can't teach pagan beliefs

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050526/NEWS01/505260481
An Indianapolis father is appealing a Marion County judge's unusual order that prohibits him and his ex-wife from exposing their child to "non-mainstream religious beliefs and rituals."

The parents practice Wicca, a contemporary pagan religion that emphasizes a balance in nature and reverence for the earth.

Cale J. Bradford, chief judge of the Marion Superior Court, kept the unusual provision in the couple's divorce decree last year over their fierce objections, court records show. The order does not define a mainstream religion.

Bradford refused to remove the provision after the 9-year-old boy's outraged parents, Thomas E. Jones Jr. and his ex-wife, Tammie U. Bristol, protested last fall.

Through a court spokeswoman, Bradford said Wednesday he could not discuss the pending legal dispute.

The parents' Wiccan beliefs came to Bradford's attention in a confidential report prepared by the Domestic Relations Counseling Bureau, which provides recommendations to the court on child custody and visitation rights. Jones' son attends a local Catholic school.

"There is a discrepancy between Ms. Jones and Mr. Jones' lifestyle and the belief system adhered to by the parochial school. . . . Ms. Jones and Mr. Jones display little insight into the confusion these divergent belief systems will have upon (the boy) as he ages," the bureau said in its report.

But Jones, 37, Indianapolis, disputes the bureau's findings, saying he attended Bishop Chatard High School in Indianapolis as a non-Christian.

Jones has brought the case before the Indiana Court of Appeals, with help from the Indiana Civil Liberties Union. They filed their request for the appeals court to strike the one-paragraph clause in January.

"This was done without either of us requesting it and at the judge's whim," said Jones, who has organized Pagan Pride Day events in Indianapolis. "It is upsetting to our son that he cannot celebrate holidays with us, including Yule, which is winter solstice, and Ostara, which is the spring equinox."

The ICLU and Jones assert the judge's order tramples on the parents' constitutional right to expose their son to a religion of their choice. Both say the court failed to explain how exposing the boy to Wicca's beliefs and practices would harm him.

Bristol is not involved in the appeal and could not be reached for comment. She and Jones have joint custody, and the boy lives with the father on the Northside.

Jones and the ICLU also argue the order is so vague that it could lead to Jones being found in contempt and losing custody of his son.

"When they read the order to me, I said, 'You've got to be kidding,' " said Alisa G. Cohen, an Indianapolis attorney representing Jones. "Didn't the judge get the memo that it's not up to him what constitutes a valid religion?"

Some people have preconceived notions about Wicca, which has some rituals involving nudity but mostly would be inoffensive to children, said Philip Goff, director of the Center for the Study of Religion & American Culture at Indiana University-Purdue University Indianapolis.

"Wiccans use the language of witchcraft, but it has a different meaning to them," Goff said. "Their practices tend to be rather pacifistic. They tend to revolve around the old pagan holidays. There's not really a church of Wicca. Practices vary from region to region."

Even the U.S. military accommodates Wiccans and educates chaplains about their beliefs, said Lawrence W. Snyder, an associate professor of religious studies at Western Kentucky University.

"The federal government has given Wiccans protection under the First Amendment," Snyder said. "Unless this judge has some very specific information about activities involving the child that are harmful, the law is not on his side."

At times, divorcing parents might battle in the courts over the religion of their children. But Kenneth J. Falk, the ICLU's legal director, said he knows of no such order issued before by an Indiana court. He said his research also did not turn up such a case nationally.

"Religion comes up most frequently when there are disputes between the parents. There are lots of cases where a mom and dad are of different faiths, and they're having a tug of war over the kids," Falk said. "This is different: Their dispute is with the judge. When the government is attempting to tell people they're not allowed to engage in non-mainstream activities, that raises concerns."

Indiana law generally allows parents who are awarded physical custody of children to determine their religious training; courts step in only when the children's physical or emotional health would be endangered.

Getting the judge's religious restriction lifted should be a slam-dunk, said David Orentlicher, an Indiana University law professor and Democratic state representative from Indianapolis.

"That's blatantly unconstitutional," Orentlicher said. "Obviously, the judge can order them not to expose the child to drugs or other inappropriate conduct, but it sounds like this order was confusing or could be misconstrued."

The couple married in February 1995, and their divorce was final in February 2004.

As Wiccans, the boy's parents believe in nature-based deities and engage in worship rituals that include guided meditation that Jones says improved his son's concentration. Wicca "is an understanding that we're all connected, and respecting that," said Jones, who is a computer Web designer.

Jones said he does not consider himself a witch or practice anything resembling witchcraft.

During the divorce, he told a court official that Wiccans are not devil worshippers. And he said he does not practice a form of Wicca that involves nudity.

"I celebrate life as a duality. There's a male and female force to everything," Jones said. "I feel the Earth is a living creature. I don't believe in Satan or any creature of infinite evil."
Talk about your activist judges!! Good grief!

Someone want to tell this asshat about that document called the U.S. Constitution? Oh, and, btw, might want to add in that one of the biggest "mainstream religions" is based upon lies and deceit. That being Christianity.

I'd even hand this judge some back copies of the Wash. Times showing the Franklin Cover-Up and the widespread sexual abuse of children by so-called Christians

Fvcking MORON juge!
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: conjur
Oh, and, btw, might want to add in that one of the biggest "mainstream religions" is based upon lies and deceit. That being Christianity.

Was this troll the purpose of the thread or is the case in question the purpose?

CsG
 

BBond

Diamond Member
Oct 3, 2004
8,363
0
0
This judge is forcing his pagan religion on the Jones family. Only today they call it a legal system.
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: conjur
Oh, and, btw, might want to add in that one of the biggest "mainstream religions" is based upon lies and deceit. That being Christianity.
Was this troll the purpose of the thread or is the case in question the purpose?

Blue Staters that have not given in to the Dark Side yet take note, CSG and the Red Republicans will own you.

Ahsta Lavista Constitution
 

Trevelyan

Diamond Member
Dec 10, 2000
4,077
0
71
Originally posted by: conjur
Oh, and, btw, might want to add in that one of the biggest "mainstream religions" is based upon lies and deceit. That being Christianity.

I'd even hand this judge some back copies of the Wash. Times showing the Franklin Cover-Up and the widespread sexual abuse of children by so-called Christians

We're all very well aware of your views on Christianity, conjur. Please keep the trolling to a minimum.
 

RightIsWrong

Diamond Member
Apr 29, 2005
5,649
0
0
Gentlemen and Gentleladies, I, Bill Frist, would like to be the first to call for an up or down vote on Judge Cale J. Bradford to the Circuit Court that our beloved and revered President has appointed him or else I will take your filibuster and go home and you won't get to use it anymore.
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Originally posted by: Trevelyan
Originally posted by: conjur
Oh, and, btw, might want to add in that one of the biggest "mainstream religions" is based upon lies and deceit. That being Christianity.

I'd even hand this judge some back copies of the Wash. Times showing the Franklin Cover-Up and the widespread sexual abuse of children by so-called Christians
We're all very well aware of your views on Christianity, conjur. Please keep the trolling to a minimum.
The only trolling is the thread-crapping from you and CsG.

Care to stick to the topic please? Or is your lack of doing so tacit approval of this judge's action?
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: Trevelyan
Originally posted by: conjur
Oh, and, btw, might want to add in that one of the biggest "mainstream religions" is based upon lies and deceit. That being Christianity.

I'd even hand this judge some back copies of the Wash. Times showing the Franklin Cover-Up and the widespread sexual abuse of children by so-called Christians

We're all very well aware of your views on Christianity, conjur. Please keep the trolling to a minimum.
The only trolling is the thread-crapping from you and CsG.

Care to stick to the topic please?

And that topic is?

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: conjur
Oh, and, btw, might want to add in that one of the biggest "mainstream religions" is based upon lies and deceit. That being Christianity.

Was this troll the purpose of the thread or is the case in question the purpose?

CsG

CsG
 

Czar

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
28,510
0
0
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: Trevelyan
Originally posted by: conjur
Oh, and, btw, might want to add in that one of the biggest "mainstream religions" is based upon lies and deceit. That being Christianity.

I'd even hand this judge some back copies of the Wash. Times showing the Franklin Cover-Up and the widespread sexual abuse of children by so-called Christians
We're all very well aware of your views on Christianity, conjur. Please keep the trolling to a minimum.
The only trolling is the thread-crapping from you and CsG.

Care to stick to the topic please? Or is your lack of doing so tacit approval of this judge's action?
conjur, he has a point
 

piasabird

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
17,168
60
91
Wiccan as a religion is as varied as Christianity.

I dont really like the term Pagan used to describe people. Pagan is often used in a derrogatory way to describe non-Christian religions like all non-christians are somehow bad or not right or even evil.

Wiccan as a religion started before Christianity. Many groups worship nature or what they call the God-Mother or the God-Father of the Earth. Another common beleif is that there is magic, or good or evil influence and deeds and that evil magic, influence or deeds will come back to you 3 fold. Pagan and Wicca can be very different terms.

Most of these Wiccan people are just average people. I think they have picnics and get togethers just like some churches. There are probably good and evil followers just as much as there are good and evil christians.

p.s. I keep thinking of some movie I saw where these guys with Goat Horns are running amuck and causing havoc trying to sacrifice a virgin every time I hear the term Pagan. I guess that is kind of a stereo type. Blame it on hollywood!
 

shrumpage

Golden Member
Mar 1, 2004
1,304
0
0
This reminds me of a case where a father not allowed to tell this child that homosexuality was a sin, as in accordance with his beliefs, because the the mother was a lesiben and living with her partner.

This case doesn't surprise me.
 

jackschmittusa

Diamond Member
Apr 16, 2003
5,972
1
0
The judge is way out of line here. Little more to say.

Pagan is usually used in reference to poly-theistic religions.
 
May 16, 2000
13,522
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Man, bigots and zealots tick me off. Crap like this ruins my whole day. I think the judge needs to be ousted by citizen executive order .308. Freaking Salem all over again.
 

nutxo

Diamond Member
May 20, 2001
6,824
503
126
Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
Man, bigots and zealots tick me off. Crap like this ruins my whole day. I think the judge needs to be ousted by citizen executive order .308. Freaking Salem all over again.


The judge is a zealot so you think he needs to be shot?

Does that mean you need to be shot also?

Help me out here.
 

robertcloud

Banned
Oct 23, 2004
218
0
0
Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
Man, bigots and zealots tick me off. Crap like this ruins my whole day. I think the judge needs to be ousted by citizen executive order .308. Freaking Salem all over again.


If the judge was aware that these pagan beliefs were to be taught to the child, his conscience forbade him from remaining passive in the matter. Some people place their faith in Christianity above worldly institutions like this man was doing. He put the child's soul before his own career. He was aware of the possible repercussions but he chose to do it anyway, and I respect him for that.
 

slurmsmackenzie

Golden Member
Jun 4, 2004
1,413
0
0
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: Trevelyan
Originally posted by: conjur
Oh, and, btw, might want to add in that one of the biggest "mainstream religions" is based upon lies and deceit. That being Christianity.

I'd even hand this judge some back copies of the Wash. Times showing the Franklin Cover-Up and the widespread sexual abuse of children by so-called Christians
We're all very well aware of your views on Christianity, conjur. Please keep the trolling to a minimum.
The only trolling is the thread-crapping from you and CsG.

Care to stick to the topic please? Or is your lack of doing so tacit approval of this judge's action?

on one hand you say christianity is lies and deceit... then you say "so called christians" as if they proclaim themselves to be christians when in fact, they are "wolves in sheeps clothing" as the man jc stated. so which is it? is christianity to blame, or is the perversion by selfish, power hungry individuals? please try to keep the labels pinned to those who deserve it. there are true christians out there, and the reason you don't hear about them and their accomplishments is because christianity is selfless and begs no acclaim. remember, jc said "be no part of this world just as i am no part of this world" can we assume that our professed christian lawmakers are as they say they are? not according to jesus.... and last i checked he's the prime example.

 

UbiSunt

Senior member
Oct 1, 2004
516
0
0
Originally posted by: piasabird
Wiccan as a religion is as varied as Christianity.

I dont really like the term Pagan used to describe people. Pagan is often used in a derrogatory way to describe non-Christian religions like all non-christians are somehow bad or not right or even evil.

Wiccan as a religion started before Christianity. Many groups worship nature or what they call the God-Mother or the God-Father of the Earth. Another common beleif is that there is magic, or good or evil influence and deeds and that evil magic, influence or deeds will come back to you 3 fold. Pagan and Wicca can be very different terms.

Most of these Wiccan people are just average people. I think they have picnics and get togethers just like some churches. There are probably good and evil followers just as much as there are good and evil christians.

p.s. I keep thinking of some movie I saw where these guys with Goat Horns are running amuck and causing havoc trying to sacrifice a virgin every time I hear the term Pagan. I guess that is kind of a stereo type. Blame it on hollywood!


Actually Wicca only began in the nineteenth century in Europe as an offshoot of right-wing movements in Germany and Britain. It became Wicca in the twentieth century in England and tranformed into a niche in the left-wing counter-culture movement as it crossed the Atlantic. It was later adopted primarily by the lesbian arm of the feminist movement that took off in the mid-1960's and was synchretized with eastern beliefs.

Further, Wiccans cannot truly call themselves pagan due to the quite new origins of their beliefs they are more accurately described as neo-pagans. And yes, there are quite a few other neo-pagan groups other than Wiccans.

On a side note, the origin of the word pagan derives from the condescending description of Greco-Roman PAGANS describing the country-folk. It was Latin term for a redneck or country-bumpkin. Christians simply continued the tradition of using the term after Greco-Roman paganism ceased to be a mainstream religion.

Back on topic, I think that neopaganism is certainly not a mainstream religion but I also think that the judge overstepped his legal authority on this case. However, I also think that this case is being blown way out of proportion, its not some epic battle between red states and blue states, its just a court skirmish.

Finally, Conjur, quit trolling.
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Originally posted by: robertcloud
Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
Man, bigots and zealots tick me off. Crap like this ruins my whole day. I think the judge needs to be ousted by citizen executive order .308. Freaking Salem all over again.
If the judge was aware that these pagan beliefs were to be taught to the child, his conscience forbade him from remaining passive in the matter. Some people place their faith in Christianity above worldly institutions like this man was doing. He put the child's soul before his own career. He was aware of the possible repercussions but he chose to do it anyway, and I respect him for that.
And who made him arbiter of what's morally right and wrong and what's a "proper" religion?

Oh yeah... NO ONE!
 
May 16, 2000
13,522
0
0
Originally posted by: nutxo
Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
Man, bigots and zealots tick me off. Crap like this ruins my whole day. I think the judge needs to be ousted by citizen executive order .308. Freaking Salem all over again.


The judge is a zealot so you think he needs to be shot?

Does that mean you need to be shot also?

Help me out here.

I don't sit on a bench that EXPRESSLY PROHIBITS judgement based on personal theology. And no, he doesn't actually need to be shot, but he should be barred from ever holding public office again since he's incapable of doing so in accordance with the laws of our nation. But yes, that's how mad I get at zealots. I am 100% willing and able to go to war against those who attempt to dictate my theological choices to me, the same as my forefathers were when they founded America.
 
May 16, 2000
13,522
0
0
Originally posted by: robertcloud
Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
Man, bigots and zealots tick me off. Crap like this ruins my whole day. I think the judge needs to be ousted by citizen executive order .308. Freaking Salem all over again.


If the judge was aware that these pagan beliefs were to be taught to the child, his conscience forbade him from remaining passive in the matter. Some people place their faith in Christianity above worldly institutions like this man was doing. He put the child's soul before his own career. He was aware of the possible repercussions but he chose to do it anyway, and I respect him for that.

I understand what you're saying. I respect that in a person as well, but a judge is not a person; he/she is a representative of our government who must remain absolutely theologically impartial. If he is unable to do so he can NOT be allowed to sit on the bench, period. You see, when a person has a bias they lack the power to inflict it upon another person, interfering with that persons freedoms and rights. A judge however is empowered to dang near control utterly a persons life, and therefore can NOT act in such a manner.

If you claim that he has that right, you must acknowledge the absolute probability of eventual revolution since citizens must also have the right to respond to such fascist controls upon our persons. My point is that I will kill or die to prevent a theocracy...so if you demand one you must accept that it WILL start a war.