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Judge in Year 2000 terrorist case speaks some sense

drewshin

Golden Member
Dec 14, 1999
1,464
0
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I'm glad someone was brave enough to state that our court system is good enough to try these terrorists and that our Constitution is a model for the rest of the world - not something that's not fit for today's world like some would have you believe.

U.S. District Judge John C. Coughenour

The message I would hope to convey in today's sentencing is twofold:

First, that we have the resolve in this country to deal with the subject of terrorism and people who engage in it should be prepared to sacrifice a major portion of their life in confinement.

Secondly, though, I would like to convey the message that our system works. We did not need to use a secret military tribunal, or detain the defendant indefinitely as an enemy combatant, or deny him the right to counsel, or invoke any proceedings beyond those guaranteed by or contrary to the United States Constitution.

I would suggest that the message to the world from today's sentencing is that our courts have not abandoned our commitment to the ideals that set our nation apart. We can deal with the threats to our national security without denying the accused fundamental constitutional protections.

Despite the fact that Mr. Ressam is not an American citizen and despite the fact that he entered this country intent upon killing American citizens, he received an effective, vigorous defense, and the opportunity to have his guilt or innocence determined by a jury of 12 ordinary citizens.

Most importantly, all of this occurred in the sunlight of a public trial. There were no secret proceedings, no indefinite detention, no denial of counsel.

The tragedy of September 11th shook our sense of security and made us realize that we, too, are vulnerable to acts of terrorism.

Unfortunately, some believe that this threat renders our Constitution obsolete. This is a Constitution for which men and women have died and continue to die and which has made us a model among nations. If that view is allowed to prevail, the terrorists will have won.

It is my sworn duty, and as long as there is breath in my body I'll perform it, to support and defend the Constitution of the United States. We will be in recess.
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
rose.gif



:thumbsup:




Although, I'd have liked to see this guy get life w/o parole.
 

Todd33

Diamond Member
Oct 16, 2003
7,842
2
81
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Erm, Rassam came onto US soil and we were not at war at the time.

Are we at war now? Which one is that and how is it relavent? There will always be wars, you don't dump the foundation of your government everytime some yahoo starts a war.
 

cwgannon

Member
May 24, 2005
112
0
0
Originally posted by: Todd33
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Erm, Rassam came onto US soil and we were not at war at the time.

Are we at war now? Which one is that and how is it relavent? There will always be wars, you don't dump the foundation of your government everytime some yahoo starts a war.

I think TLC (wasn't that a teeny-bopper band?) just got zinged.
 
Sep 12, 2004
16,852
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Originally posted by: cwgannon
Originally posted by: Todd33
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Erm, Rassam came onto US soil and we were not at war at the time.

Are we at war now? Which one is that and how is it relavent? There will always be wars, you don't dump the foundation of your government everytime some yahoo starts a war.

I think TLC (wasn't that a teeny-bopper band?) just got zinged.
Really?

Well this judge apparently just doesn't get it and neither do you. Rassam is going to get 13 or 14 years after considering time served and will be deported when released. He'll still be plenty young enough to continue his ruthless little ideology and persue his desire to kill Americans.

I sincerely hope that if/when that happens, you or Todd33 are not his victims. It'd be a mighty tough way for you to learn you were ultimately wrong, wouldn't it?

:zing:

 

EatSpam

Diamond Member
May 1, 2005
6,423
0
0
Originally posted by: Todd33
There will always be wars, you don't dump the foundation of your government everytime some yahoo starts a war.

Well put.
 

drewshin

Golden Member
Dec 14, 1999
1,464
0
0
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Originally posted by: cwgannon
Originally posted by: Todd33
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Erm, Rassam came onto US soil and we were not at war at the time.

Are we at war now? Which one is that and how is it relavent? There will always be wars, you don't dump the foundation of your government everytime some yahoo starts a war.

I think TLC (wasn't that a teeny-bopper band?) just got zinged.
Really?

Well this judge apparently just doesn't get it and neither do you. Rassam is going to get 13 or 14 years after considering time served and will be deported when released. He'll still be plenty young enough to continue his ruthless little ideology and persue his desire to kill Americans.

I sincerely hope that if/when that happens, you or Todd33 are not his victims. It'd be a mighty tough way for you to learn you were ultimately wrong, wouldn't it?

:zing:

So what if he desires to kill Americans, that's what we have intelligence agencies for.

Do we give every law breaker a life sentence because we're afraid of what they'll do when they get out? Grow up, think for a change. Oh I'm sorry, I forgot that you wanted the US to turn into the next communist Russia. Stop hating the American values that have made this country great.
 
Sep 12, 2004
16,852
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Originally posted by: drewshin
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Originally posted by: cwgannon
Originally posted by: Todd33
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Erm, Rassam came onto US soil and we were not at war at the time.

Are we at war now? Which one is that and how is it relavent? There will always be wars, you don't dump the foundation of your government everytime some yahoo starts a war.

I think TLC (wasn't that a teeny-bopper band?) just got zinged.
Really?

Well this judge apparently just doesn't get it and neither do you. Rassam is going to get 13 or 14 years after considering time served and will be deported when released. He'll still be plenty young enough to continue his ruthless little ideology and persue his desire to kill Americans.

I sincerely hope that if/when that happens, you or Todd33 are not his victims. It'd be a mighty tough way for you to learn you were ultimately wrong, wouldn't it?

:zing:

So what if he desires to kill Americans, that's what we have intelligence agencies for.
You mean the intelligence agencies that have failed us so much in the recent past?

Do we give every law breaker a life sentence because we're afraid of what they'll do when they get out? Grow up, think for a change. Oh I'm sorry, I forgot that you wanted the US to turn into the next communist Russia. Stop hating the American values that have made this country great.
WTF? Am I talking about "every lawbreaker"? Of course not. Are there lawbreakers that do get life sentences in this country for hideous crimes? Absolutely. If we're going to go the judicial route with terrorists, fine. But make the punishment equal to the crime for terrorism. Rassam came into this country with the itent of murdering a lot of innocent Americans. So why does he get only a few years in prison for that intent? He should get life with no chance of parole. Is it worth the potential cost to release him and eventually have him come back and kill Americans anyway? Well if you believe that, then I'll just hang with the terrorist sympathizer or terrorist apologist tag on you. It seems more than fair to make the lame accusation after your lame claims about me.
 
Sep 12, 2004
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Originally posted by: Czar
TLC,
Intent is not as serious as doing the crime.
Neither is all intent the same. Intending to kill a cheating spouse, or a business partner that screwed you over, or some homie that pissed you off is not quite the same as blowing up the LA airport.

Intending to cause death and destruction on that scale requires a sick mind and is a threat to society. Such threats need to be put away for life. I don't feel like risking me and mine to have some feel-goody feeling that there's a slight chance this guy might repent and change his stripes after 14 years in prison. ymmv.

 

Whaspe

Senior member
Jan 1, 2005
430
0
0
Wasn't he able to be sentenced up to 35 years? From what I heard on the news, he stopped cooperating with the cops and two of his accomplices will now be set free. Everyone was expecting a harsher sentence. Nice speech though.
 

drewshin

Golden Member
Dec 14, 1999
1,464
0
0
Do we give every law breaker a life sentence because we're afraid of what they'll do when they get out? Grow up, think for a change. Oh I'm sorry, I forgot that you wanted the US to turn into the next communist Russia. Stop hating the American values that have made this country great.
WTF? Am I talking about "every lawbreaker"? Of course not. Are there lawbreakers that do get life sentences in this country for hideous crimes? Absolutely. If we're going to go the judicial route with terrorists, fine. But make the punishment equal to the crime for terrorism. Rassam came into this country with the itent of murdering a lot of innocent Americans. So why does he get only a few years in prison for that intent? He should get life with no chance of parole. Is it worth the potential cost to release him and eventually have him come back and kill Americans anyway? Well if you believe that, then I'll just hang with the terrorist sympathizer or terrorist apologist tag on you. It seems more than fair to make the lame accusation after your lame claims about me.[/quote]

Sorry, but I live in the United States of America, not the Communist state of Russia like you would want it to be. So you would like to put people in prison for life for "intent" only. You would like every lawbreaker to go to life in prison, and not just every lawbreaker, but every person you think has an "intent" to break a law. Pretty soon, you're going to want anyone who has a good chance of commiting a crime to go to prison or put to death. You hear a Palestinian child who has no idea what he's saying when he says "Death to America", and you'd want to see him put against the wall and shot because he could possibly decide in the future to hurt Americans. No thank you, but thanks for playing!
 

drewshin

Golden Member
Dec 14, 1999
1,464
0
0
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Originally posted by: Czar
TLC,
Intent is not as serious as doing the crime.
Neither is all intent the same. Intending to kill a cheating spouse, or a business partner that screwed you over, or some homie that pissed you off is not quite the same as blowing up the LA airport.

Intending to cause death and destruction on that scale requires a sick mind and is a threat to society. Such threats need to be put away for life. I don't feel like risking me and mine to have some feel-goody feeling that there's a slight chance this guy might repent and change his stripes after 14 years in prison. ymmv.

I haven't heard anyone say here that he could repent, that's your twisted mind saying that. The main point of this article is whether the Constitution of this country should be tossed aside at a whim. I think it is an important document, obviously you DON'T.

By the way, I like your Orwell quote. It's fitting too, you quoting a socialist (basically a communist that cant make up their minds).
 
Sep 12, 2004
16,852
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Originally posted by: drewshin
Do we give every law breaker a life sentence because we're afraid of what they'll do when they get out? Grow up, think for a change. Oh I'm sorry, I forgot that you wanted the US to turn into the next communist Russia. Stop hating the American values that have made this country great.
WTF? Am I talking about "every lawbreaker"? Of course not. Are there lawbreakers that do get life sentences in this country for hideous crimes? Absolutely. If we're going to go the judicial route with terrorists, fine. But make the punishment equal to the crime for terrorism. Rassam came into this country with the itent of murdering a lot of innocent Americans. So why does he get only a few years in prison for that intent? He should get life with no chance of parole. Is it worth the potential cost to release him and eventually have him come back and kill Americans anyway? Well if you believe that, then I'll just hang with the terrorist sympathizer or terrorist apologist tag on you. It seems more than fair to make the lame accusation after your lame claims about me.

Sorry, but I live in the United States of America, not the Communist state of Russia like you would want it to be. So you would like to put people in prison for life for "intent" only. You would like every lawbreaker to go to life in prison, and not just every lawbreaker, but every person you think has an "intent" to break a law. Pretty soon, you're going to want anyone who has a good chance of commiting a crime to go to prison or put to death. You hear a Palestinian child who has no idea what he's saying when he says "Death to America", and you'd want to see him put against the wall and shot because he could possibly decide in the future to hurt Americans. No thank you, but thanks for playing![/quote]
Are you such an idiot in real life? Or do you just play one on the internet?
 

Czar

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
28,510
0
0
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Originally posted by: Czar
TLC,
Intent is not as serious as doing the crime.
Neither is all intent the same. Intending to kill a cheating spouse, or a business partner that screwed you over, or some homie that pissed you off is not quite the same as blowing up the LA airport.

Intending to cause death and destruction on that scale requires a sick mind and is a threat to society. Such threats need to be put away for life. I don't feel like risking me and mine to have some feel-goody feeling that there's a slight chance this guy might repent and change his stripes after 14 years in prison. ymmv.
But intent is just that, an idea. Like I can intend to go to school in England but there are so many factors that decide if that will ever happen.

Sounds to me you want to step alot further than is currently allowed and make some thought police that puts all those with bad ideas behind bars.
 
Sep 12, 2004
16,852
59
86
Originally posted by: Czar
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Originally posted by: Czar
TLC,
Intent is not as serious as doing the crime.
Neither is all intent the same. Intending to kill a cheating spouse, or a business partner that screwed you over, or some homie that pissed you off is not quite the same as blowing up the LA airport.

Intending to cause death and destruction on that scale requires a sick mind and is a threat to society. Such threats need to be put away for life. I don't feel like risking me and mine to have some feel-goody feeling that there's a slight chance this guy might repent and change his stripes after 14 years in prison. ymmv.
But intent is just that, an idea. Like I can intend to go to school in England but there are so many factors that decide if that will ever happen.

Sounds to me you want to step alot further than is currently allowed and make some thought police that puts all those with bad ideas behind bars.
This is not about mind reading or assumptions about intent. The dude had a nitroglycerin and timers in the trunk of his car, was a known member of an al Qaeda cell (though it'd been nice if Canadian intelligence hadn't destroyed the wiretap tapes related to that), trained at a terrorist training camp, and admitted his bad intentions. There was sufficient physical proof, so it's not as if any end run around the Constitution is being made.

There's no guess-work here. This was an idea that he had the full intent of carrying out and if he hadn't been stopped a lot of innocent people would have died.
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Originally posted by: Condor
The words "Year 2000 Terrorist Case" say it all! Pretty slow way to fight an imminent threat!
Ressam was arrested in 1999. Got a problem with that?

What's wrong with dragging the case out trying to get information out of him while he's in jail?
 

Czar

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
28,510
0
0
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Originally posted by: Czar
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Originally posted by: Czar
TLC,
Intent is not as serious as doing the crime.
Neither is all intent the same. Intending to kill a cheating spouse, or a business partner that screwed you over, or some homie that pissed you off is not quite the same as blowing up the LA airport.

Intending to cause death and destruction on that scale requires a sick mind and is a threat to society. Such threats need to be put away for life. I don't feel like risking me and mine to have some feel-goody feeling that there's a slight chance this guy might repent and change his stripes after 14 years in prison. ymmv.
But intent is just that, an idea. Like I can intend to go to school in England but there are so many factors that decide if that will ever happen.

Sounds to me you want to step alot further than is currently allowed and make some thought police that puts all those with bad ideas behind bars.
This is not about mind reading or assumptions about intent. The dude had a nitroglycerin and timers in the trunk of his car, was a known member of an al Qaeda cell (though it'd been nice if Canadian intelligence hadn't destroyed the wiretap tapes related to that), trained at a terrorist training camp, and admitted his bad intentions. There was sufficient physical proof, so it's not as if any end run around the Constitution is being made.

There's no guess-work here. This was an idea that he had the full intent of carrying out and if he hadn't been stopped a lot of innocent people would have died.
all very true, he had the stuff, was he cought in the act?
 

Todd33

Diamond Member
Oct 16, 2003
7,842
2
81
Originally posted by: Condor
We got here fighting on our feet, not crawling on our bellies!

Then join and ship out. There is a "war" to fight, why do you just sit at your keyboard and act tough?
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
Big difference between somebody being caught within the United States and on some battlefield on the other side of the world.

The best those dirtbags should get is a military tribunal. The worst is to let them rot away in jail.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,268
126
Originally posted by: Genx87
Big difference between somebody being caught within the United States and on some battlefield on the other side of the world.

The best those dirtbags should get is a military tribunal. The worst is to let them rot away in jail.

Wondering what you think of this. I was going at it with a super righty in another forum. The gist of it is that he thinks the 6th amendment is rather quaint and should not apply to people the government believes are "enemy combatants" (we are speaking of US citizens in the US, not battlefield incidents) then swears we need to protect our liberties from the terrorists.

Now I think it's bullshiit when someone wants to take away Constitutional protections and then wants to protect our liberties from Bin Laden.

Not a bait post. I was wondering what someone on the right who I consider worth asking thinks.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,685
136
You misrepresent the provenance of Gitmo detainees, Genx87. Many weren't captured in battle, but were fingered for rewards after the fighting was over... Some were never even in Afghanistan, but were taken in other countries, like Pakistan, where they never encountered US troops, at all...

The reasons they're being held at all are purely for domestic propaganda purposes, to show that the Admin is "tough on Terrar". If there were sufficient evidence to do so, there would be no need for special tribunals- prosecution would have proceeded under either the civilian court system or the UCMJ long ago... or by the governments who've offered them up to the US...

Winning at any cost has a price much higher than constitutional government or common decency can allow...