Judge forces Apple to unlock iPhone

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CZroe

Lifer
Jun 24, 2001
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The commonly understood definition of a backdoor is:







While I agree the FBI wants software to obtain unauthorized access to the plaintext data stored on the phone the reported method in no way bypasses normal authentication. In fact the FBI is relying on the authentication system to authorize them to access the decryption key.



If the software was a backdoor there would be no need to brute force the password.

If your interpretation of a software backdoor was correct every system that relied on a password for authentication has a backdoor as anyone can attempt, (at least a limited number of times), to guess the password. That's not how the term is commonly used.



At any rate we're arguing semantics. I've stated my position so I'm going to leave it at that.


"Backdoor" has always been visually descriptive. Anyone who speaks English should know how "backdoor" applies here. Marco Rubio, it seems, doesn't speak English.

How can you possibly say it does not bypass normal authentication if normal authentication has this measure specifically to prevent brute force attacks? "Authentication" is not simply one thing. There are many parts of the process and that is absolutely one of them. It's a very important one too, considering that it's the only one that needs to be backdoored.
 
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Rakehellion

Lifer
Jan 15, 2013
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A lawbreaker breaking the law doesn't mean the law doesn't exist. The constitution remains the law of the land.

And a lawmaker breaking the constitution doesn't mean the constitution doesn't exist. Except if you break that unconstitutional law you're going to be sitting in a jail cell for a long time. Unless you have enough cash to lawyer up, which you very well may not.

If a law is unconstitutional then it is indefensibly wrong.

Sure, lots of laws are wrong. It was illegal for blacks to drink from certain water fountains, but it was still the fucking law and it took a long time to change it.

A point so simple it seems to have escaped you: It's wrong. Both are wrong.

I don't care about your views on right and wrong as I have my own. I already said I don't care about the constitution or the law. I'm not defending the constitution or the law.

Once again: there is no right to safety. You can eat fatty foods until you die if you want to. The government can compel a producer to make you aware of the risks. They can't out-right ban or restrict fried chicken or make you do what's good for you. This is why New York City's laws about sugar and salt are ridiculous violations of liberty.

Fried chicken isn't dangerous. You're being ridiculous.

That's EXACTLY what it is supposed to be.

Supposed to be. Maybe wish upon a star and all your hopes and dreams will come true.

Ever wonder why we no longer have prohibition?

We have prohibition on cannabis, cocaine, LSD.
 

CZroe

Lifer
Jun 24, 2001
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And a lawmaker breaking the constitution doesn't mean the constitution doesn't exist. Except if you break that unconstitutional law you're going to be sitting in a jail cell for a long time. Unless you have enough cash to lawyer up, which you very well may not.



Sure, lots of laws are wrong. It was illegal for blacks to drink from certain water fountains, but it was still the fucking law and it took a long time to change it.



I don't care about your views on right and wrong as I have my own. I already said I don't care about the constitution or the law. I'm not defending the constitution or the law.



Fried chicken isn't dangerous. You're being ridiculous.



Supposed to be. Maybe wish upon a star and all your hopes and dreams will come true.



We have prohibition on cannabis, cocaine, LSD.
Sure! We'll just sit back and act like you and everything will just magically restore! Talk about "strawman." FFS, you have to be trolling at this point.
 

Rakehellion

Lifer
Jan 15, 2013
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Again, intelligent people don't play these games.

Intelligent people don't believe in false dichotomies.

"You shouldn't be concerned about them wanting to do this because they haven't done it yet." :rolleyes:

"Hey, CZroe! Go jump off a bridge!" Did you do it? Did I just force you to jump off a bridge?

Here's the million dollar question: What legal penalties will be imposed upon Apple if they don't comply with the request?
 

Rakehellion

Lifer
Jan 15, 2013
12,181
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W sit back and act like you and everything will just magically restore! Talk about "strawman." FFS, you have to be trolling at this point.

All you seem to be doing is arguing on the internet about how "this offends me."

Cool story, bro.
 

CZroe

Lifer
Jun 24, 2001
24,195
857
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Intelligent people don't believe in false dichotomies.







"Hey, CZroe! Go jump off a bridge!" Did you do it? Did I just force you to jump off a bridge?



Here's the million dollar question: What legal penalties will be imposed upon Apple if they don't comply with the request?

The same ones that apply to you and I defying a court order. Corporations are legal entities equal to citizens for the purposes of legal rights and punishments.

The real issue is what happens when they DO comply.
 

CZroe

Lifer
Jun 24, 2001
24,195
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Not really, because Apple has a bottomless pit of lawyers to fight unconstitutional requests. You or I? We'd be in jail.
Oh! But I thought the constitutionality was irrelevant?!

Precisely why it's important that they not set the precedent.
 

Ichinisan

Lifer
Oct 9, 2002
28,298
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While I agree the FBI wants software to obtain unauthorized access to the plaintext data stored on the phone the reported method in no way bypasses normal authentication. In fact the FBI is relying on the authentication system to authorize them to access the decryption key.
It does bypass the normal security mechanism that wipes sensitive data when the wrong password is entered too many times...and that's extremely fucking important for a "secure" device.
 

Ichinisan

Lifer
Oct 9, 2002
28,298
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Sure, lots of laws are wrong. It was illegal for blacks to drink from certain water fountains, but it was still the fucking law and it took a long time to change it.
How were those laws overturned again? Ah yes! They were found to be unconstitutional!


Fried chicken isn't dangerous. You're being ridiculous.
:rolleyes:


We have prohibition on cannabis, cocaine, LSD.
We have unconstitutional laws! Why should we be concerned about another one that erodes our privacy and liberty further!
 

Rakehellion

Lifer
Jan 15, 2013
12,181
35
91
How were those laws overturned again? Ah yes! They were found to be unconstitutional!

Yeah, hundreds of years later. I guess the constitution didn't exist during the interstice.

We have unconstitutional laws! Why should we be concerned about another one that erodes our privacy and liberty further!

This isn't a law. The FBI's request violates the law.
 

Ichinisan

Lifer
Oct 9, 2002
28,298
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Yeah, hundreds of years later. I guess the constitution didn't exist during the interstice.



This isn't a law. The FBI's request violates the law.

"La la la! No concern whatsoever. The government and most politicians think they can do it. The majority of the (ignorant) populace thinks they should. Sure, it's unconstitutional, but there are lots of unconstitutional laws! Nothing to worry about! La la la!"

OK. I am no longer concerned.
 

Rakehellion

Lifer
Jan 15, 2013
12,181
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"La la la! No concern whatsoever. The government and most politicians think they can do it. The majority of the (ignorant) populace thinks they should. Sure, it's unconstitutional, but there are lots of unconstitutional laws! Nothing to worry about! La la la!"

OK. I am no longer concerned.

Again with the "I'm offended on the internet" rant. What do you plan to do about it? Donate to Apple's legal team? Vote Bernie?
 

Ichinisan

Lifer
Oct 9, 2002
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Why hasn't the government dropped their case? Why are they spending tax dollars to fight Apple? It's because they think they can win -- and they just might!

No concern...la la la!
 

Ichinisan

Lifer
Oct 9, 2002
28,298
1,235
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Again with the "I'm offended on the internet" rant. What do you plan to do about it? Donate to Apple's legal team? Vote Bernie?

Express my concerns at every opportunity, try to explain to the ignorant masses, doing my part to sway public opinion. Obviously.
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
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Apple hasn't complied with the request. Apple hasn't been forced.

And they only have to (forced to) spend millions of dollars to defend against being forced and there is a decent probability that they will lose those millions and be forced.

For the first time in this thread I agree with him, this is a semantics game. They are being forced to expend relatively large amounts of money to try and defend from being forced to create some shit. If they didn't expend the large amounts of money they would face fines and potentially jail. Anyway you want to look at it they are being forced into actions they wouldn't have otherwise taken. Unless you think that they just felt like handing an assload of money over to their lawyers to fight a battle that could go either way?
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
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Here's the million dollar question: What legal penalties will be imposed upon Apple if they don't comply with the request?

When a judge issues a warrant or a subpoena it isn't a "request". If it was then very few people would comply with them as they almost always take time and resources.

If Apple loses it's lengthy and very expensive battle it will be compelled to comply by either shutting their doors or face the full weight of the United States Justice system.

On the flip side, if Apple decided not to comply and not to hire lawyers to fight it, what do you suppose the outcome would have been? They refuse and the courts say "damn, well we tried but yall have a nice day"??? Bottom line is that Apple is either forced to expend considerable resources to block the courts order or Apple is forced to comply. It really doesn't matter how you look at it, Apple damn sure didn't choose to end up in this battle and they have committed no crimes related to this case.
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
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This isn't a law. The FBI's request violates the law.

Actually it's not. The FBI is free to request all they want. The people/company that the FBI made the request of are free to either say yes or no. Hell the FBI, or anyone for that matter, can request that Jobs body be dug up and turned into a scarecrow.

The real issue is that the courts are demanding not that the FBI is requesting. You might not personally see much of a difference but the difference is astronomically huge.

FFS if this was a "request" there would be absolutely zero reason to expend absurd amounts of resources to fight it. If I requested that you blow me right now do you think you could just say no and it be done? Or do you think that you should have to fight for your right to deny my simple request for you to blow me, at great personal expense, in the courts? If you do have to expend considerable personal wealth in order not to blow me was it really a "request" in the first place? Can me and my buddies keep making "requests" that you have to expend great personal wealth to not comply with until you are broke and eventually have to blow one of us?
 
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Paratus

Lifer
Jun 4, 2004
17,658
15,870
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"Backdoor" has always been visually descriptive. Anyone who speaks English should know how "backdoor" applies here. Marco Rubio, it seems, doesn't speak English.

How can you possibly say it does not bypass normal authentication if normal authentication has this measure specifically to prevent brute force attacks? "Authentication" is not simply one thing. There are many parts of the process and that is absolutely one of them. It's a very important one too, considering that it's the only one that needs to be backdoored.

Backdoor is visually descriptive. It describes a secret entry point that allows someone access to the contents of the room the backdoor enters. The FBI is asking Apple to assist them in a brute force attack not provide a backdoor. Apple does not have a backdoor that allows the FBI access to the contents of the storage.

Brute force is also descriptive. It describes breaking the door in. If you have a back door you don't break down the front.


It does bypass the normal security mechanism that wipes sensitive data when the wrong password is entered too many times...and that's extremely fucking important for a "secure" device.

I agree it does bypass the normal security. It does not directly bypass authentication nor bypass the cryptographic security of the storage. That's what the brute force attack does and why it's called a brute force attack not a backdoor


I agree that having Apple weaken their security is absolutely an overreach by the government. Even if you believe they would never use it without a legitimate warrant there's no way once an attack firmware is made it won't escape into the wild.

Anyway that's why I don't consider it a backdoor. It doesn't meet the definition. It is however a brute force attack.


(I wonder if its occurred to the FBI that all of us government employees with govt issued iPhones rely on that security to protect our government information.)

:hmm:
 

waggy

No Lifer
Dec 14, 2000
68,143
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http://www.foxnews.com/tech/2016/02/29/us-cannot-make-apple-provide-iphone-data-ny-judge-says.html

EW YORK – The U.S. Justice Department cannot force Apple to provide the FBI with access to a locked iPhone data in a routine Brooklyn drug case, a magistrate judge ruled Monday.

U.S. Magistrate Judge James Orenstein's written decision gives support to the company's position in its fight against a California judge's order that it create specialized software to help the FBI hack into an iPhone linked to the San Bernardino terrorism investigation. Apple's filing to oppose the order by Magistrate Judge Sheri Pym in California is due by Friday.

The San Bernardino County-owned iPhone 5C was used by Syed Farook, who was a health inspector. He and his wife Tashfeen Malik killed 14 people during a Dec. 2 attack that was at least partly inspired by the Islamic State group.
 

Paratus

Lifer
Jun 4, 2004
17,658
15,870
146
http://www.foxnews.com/tech/2016/02/29/us-cannot-make-apple-provide-iphone-data-ny-judge-says.html

EW YORK – The U.S. Justice Department cannot force Apple to provide the FBI with access to a locked iPhone data in a routine Brooklyn drug case, a magistrate judge ruled Monday.

U.S. Magistrate Judge James Orenstein's written decision gives support to the company's position in its fight against a California judge's order that it create specialized software to help the FBI hack into an iPhone linked to the San Bernardino terrorism investigation. Apple's filing to oppose the order by Magistrate Judge Sheri Pym in California is due by Friday.

The San Bernardino County-owned iPhone 5C was used by Syed Farook, who was a health inspector. He and his wife Tashfeen Malik killed 14 people during a Dec. 2 attack that was at least partly inspired by the Islamic State group.

It's the correct ruling.

Nice parting shot by the justice department.

"We are disappointed in the Magistrate's ruling and plan to ask the District Judge to review the matter in the coming days," a Justice Department spokesman said in a statement. "As our prior court filings make clear, Apple expressly agreed to assist the government in accessing the data on this iPhone -- as it had many times before in similar circumstances -- and only changed course when the government's application for assistance was made public by the court. This phone may contain evidence that will assist us in an active criminal investigation and we will continue to use the judicial system in our attempt to obtain it."
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
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It's the correct ruling.

Nice parting shot by the justice department.

I have to believe the the Justice Department is smart enough to have paperwork on virtually everything that they do so it should be rather easy for them to prove that Apple was going to write this code for them and then decided not to once it became public.