Judge clears United Airlines pension takeover

[BBond]

Let me get this Republican "ownership society" of "personal responsibility" straight.

First you bail out industries using taxpayer dollars, then you deny the taxpayers who bailed out the industries the right to bankruptcy protection, then you allow the industries the taxpayers bailed out to take advantage of bankruptcy laws to shed billions of dollars in pension obligations to their employees, then the taxpayers foot the bill.

Is that accurate? Because if it is I suggest we have all fallen down a hole and wound up with Georgie in Wonderland.

I have a better idea how to fix this pension problem. Since Republicans are SO into personal responsibility, grab all those empty suits who siphoned billions off of United for years as they ran it into the ground, seize all of their assets, and pay the pension fund with THEIR money, NOT OURS.

But that will never happen because too many Americans are stupid enough to believe Bush's voodoo economics of feed the rich and starve the poor while the middle class pays for the whole ticket and corporate execs make off with the loot.

Suckers.

Where's the responsibility Republicans? You love to tell poor people they should have planned better. Why aren't you telling United's CEO the same thing?

Judge clears United Airlines pension takeover

SAN FRANCISCO (AFX) - A federal judge ruled Tuesday in Chicago that United Airlines can walk away from 6.6 bln usd worth of retirement obligations to 119,000 current and former union employees, handing the program over to the government in a move the company argues is essential to getting out of bankruptcy.

The ruling also paves the way for the federal Pension Benefit Guaranty Corp's biggest retirement plan takeover yet and will result in lower benefits for thousands of workers. The PBGC caps annual payouts at 45,600 usd a year.

The flight attendants and mechanics unions have fiercely opposed bringing the PBGC into the picture and threatened such a move could lead to a showdown with management.

The decision covers pensions for flight attendants, ground workers, pilots and management and administrative workers. United expects to save hundreds of millions of dollars a year.

'Approval of the PBGC settlement agreement is a crucial step forward for the future of United, as it strengthens the financial platform this company needs to attract exit financing and compete effectively,' United said in a statement.

As United Airlines went before the bankruptcy judge, a handful of Democrats in Washington sided with the company's flight attendants and mechanics in their bid to stop the airline from terminating its pension plans.

Representatives George Miller, Jan Schakowsky, Pete Stark, and Senator Ted Kennedy, have proposed a bill that would more closely link executive retirement plans to those of their workers so that nobody can dodge the impact of a bankruptcy. The Pension Fairness and Full Disclosure Act would also make public more details about executive payout.

On Monday, Miller and Schakowsky also filed a brief with the court and laid out their opposition to United's plan.

Calyon Securities USA airline analyst Ray Neidl said that both sides will have to come to an accord. Any strike or labor disruption could hurt United's chances of obtaining financing, he said.

'It's a dangerous period,' said Ray Neidl.

The PBGC has assumed a monumental role in the airline industry. It has taken on the pension plans of US Airways, which is in bankruptcy again.

As United sees it, the PBGC is an essential step on the path to closing the books on more than two years in bankruptcy. The PBGC will get an equity stake in United on the carrier's exit from bankruptcy, as well.

Joseph Vicinanza, a labor and employment partner at Torys LLP in New York, said the judge overseeing the case must consider how United can continue to operate, along with the chance that there may be a strike.

'Part of his job is to try to keep them in business,' said Vicinanza.

Bill Brandt, CEO of bankruptcy specialists Development Specialists Inc, said that the threat of a strike is ominous but not a 'doomsday issue.'

'I know that United's management would want United's employees to believe that it's the death knell of United,' he said. 'And I know that United's employees would want management to believe they're prepared to do it. I would hope they negotiate.'

 

[Zebo]

Exactamundo

First you bail out industries using taxpayer dollars, then you deny the taxpayers who bailed out the industries the right to bankruptcy protection, then you allow the industries the taxpayers bailed out to take advantage of bankruptcy laws to shed billions of dollars in pension obligations to their employees, then the taxpayers foot the bill.

 

[imported_Condor]

Do something new! Read, look at history! This has been happening for years. Biggest one I remember was the RR retirement bailout. I don't even remember which party was in power at the time. I like to think it was the big evil universe of the libe, but could be wrong. That is the real problem with SS.

I won't be flying United in my future.

 

[BBond]

The biggest example would be the Resolution Trust Corportation set up during the Reagan years to bail out the banking industry after people like Neil Bush ran off with BILLIONS that U.S. taxpayers repaid for them.

Once the U.S. government realized taxpayers didn't even want to know the details they knew they could get away with anything. And they are.

 

[Jhhnn]

Repost

 

[BBond]

Where?

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: BBond
Where?

:roll:

CsG

 

[randym431]

Judge clears United Airlines pension takeover

Thats about it. Not good for anyone with a company pension. Now its United, tomorrow the rest of us? Not quite what we planned on for our future.
And if they get their way, SS will be near to nothing in our old age.
Guess its time to stake out a nice doorway & cardboard box to retire in.

I waiting for all hell to break out in the US auto industry.
In the near future, the US may actually stop making cars.
Everything will be from over seas. Even a ford will have "made in China" on the sticker.
Its coming!!!

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: randym431

Judge clears United Airlines pension takeover

Thats about it. Not good for anyone with a company pension. Now its United, tomorrow the rest of us? Not quite what we planned on for our future.
And if they get their way, SS will be near to nothing in our old age.
Guess its time to stake out a nice doorway & cardboard box to retire in.

I waiting for all hell to break out in the US auto industry.
In the near future, the US may actually stop making cars.
Everything will be from over seas. Even a ford will have "made in China" on the sticker.
Its coming!!!

Well, you can thank Unions for much of the problem. Sure, mismanagement plays a part -but Unions have absolutely destroyed the Manufacturing Industry due to heavy demands that suck the life out of the company. So I guess they go hand in hand then, because I would consider it mismanagement for a company to give into the Union's demands when that is what is going to drive the company into the ground.

Was it mentioned that this is a repost thread? 😉

CsG

 

[BBond]

You're blaming the malfeascence of board members on unions?

Bwahahahahahaha

After you the taxpayer bailed out the airline industry unions gave in to demands for lower wages to keep those airlines you just bailed out afloat. All while executive compensation skyrocketed.

It must be those damn workers expecting a decent salary and retirement after working for a lifetime.

The nerve of those workers. Why didn't they plan better for their retirement?

:roll:

My most fervent hope is that one day all of you people who are attacking workers will suffer under the consequences of these policies you defend.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: BBond
You're blaming the malfeascence of board members on unions?

Bwahahahahahaha

After you the taxpayer bailed out the airline industry unions gave in to demands for lower wages to keep those airlines you just bailed out afloat. All while executive compensation skyrocketed.

It must be those damn workers expecting a decent salary and retirement after working for a lifetime.

The nerve of those workers. Why didn't they plan better for their retirement?

:roll:

My most fervent hope is that one day all of you people who are attacking workers will suffer under the consequences of these policies you defend.

Having problems reading again "Bbond"? :roll:

Oh, and did you ever figure out that this thread is a repost?

CsG

 

[BBond]

Having problems defending another indefensible position again, "csg"?

Oh and if this is a repost why do you keep bumping it to the top? 😕

Is all your hard work over? Is that why we're enjoying the pleasure of your company in the middle of your hard work day?

Aren't you working hard?

I hear it's hard work.

 

[Cruise51]

SS isn't broke... Corporate laws are broke.

 

[Ferocious]

$3,000,000 bonus in 2002?

2002 was perhaps the WORST year in UAL financial history.

Good grief.

 

[BBond]

Like I said, "Suckers" -- every last one of us.

And the country is being run by P.T. Barnum.

 

[OffTopic1]

Originally posted by: BBond
Having problems defending another indefensible position again, "csg"?

Oh and if this is a repost why do you keep bumping it to the top? 😕

Is all your hard work over? Is that why we're enjoying the pleasure of your company in the middle of your hard work day?

Aren't you working hard?

I hear it's hard work.

Don't worry, he will sing a different tune when his SS is gone.

 

[BBond]

Ruh roh. Delta is next. And if we bail out United's pension responsibilities can Delta (and all the rest) be far behind???

Delta Airlines May File Bankruptcy

May 10, 2005 12:35 p.m. EST

Hector Duarte Jr., All Headline News Staff Reporter

ATLANTA (AHN) - America's third largest airline announced Tuesday it will record substantial losses for the final nine months of the year. The company says if cash levels fall too low or lenders demand immediate payments, they will need to file bankruptcy.

In an SEC filing, Delta said it continues to face significant challenges due to historically high fuel prices and low ticket fares.

"Accordingly, we believe that we will record a substantial net loss for the nine months ending Dec. 31 and that our cash flows from operations will not be sufficient to meet all of our liquidity needs for that period," the filing said.

The airline reported a nearly $1.1 billion loss in the first quarter and cites it will attempt more cost cuts and potential asset sales, but it may not prove to be enough.

"There can be no assurance that we will be able to implement any of these strategies or that these strategies, if implemented, will be sufficient to enable us to maintain adequate liquidity," the filing said.

Some analysts have speculated that Delta will sell its feeder carriers Comair Inc. and Atlantic Southeast Airlines. The Atlanta-based company did not specify its plans in the filing.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: BBond
Having problems defending another indefensible position again, "csg"?

Oh and if this is a repost why do you keep bumping it to the top? 😕

Is all your hard work over? Is that why we're enjoying the pleasure of your company in the middle of your hard work day?

Aren't you working hard?

I hear it's hard work.

As I linked before - this thread is a REPOST

But yes, I have gotten over the hump on the project I am currently working on. I have delivered on machine and the other is about to be delivered. I am currently running "product" through it and running some tests so unless something goes wrong or errors-out, I am just sitting here twiddling my thumbs so I figured I'd bring some logic back to this forum.😀

CsG

 

[BBond]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: BBond
Having problems defending another indefensible position again, "csg"?

Oh and if this is a repost why do you keep bumping it to the top? 😕

Is all your hard work over? Is that why we're enjoying the pleasure of your company in the middle of your hard work day?

Aren't you working hard?

I hear it's hard work.

As I linked before - this thread is a REPOST

But yes, I have gotten over the hump on the project I am currently working on. I have delivered on machine and the other is about to be delivered. I am currently running "product" through it and running some tests so unless something goes wrong or errors-out, I am just sitting here twiddling my thumbs so I figured I'd bring some logic back to this forum.😀

CsG

Don't waste your time on an impossible project here. Go back and work hard.

🙂

 

[Ozoned]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: BBond
Having problems defending another indefensible position again, "csg"?

Oh and if this is a repost why do you keep bumping it to the top? 😕

Is all your hard work over? Is that why we're enjoying the pleasure of your company in the middle of your hard work day?

Aren't you working hard?

I hear it's hard work.

As I linked before - this thread is a REPOST

But yes, I have gotten over the hump on the project I am currently working on. I have delivered on machine and the other is about to be delivered. I am currently running "product" through it and running some tests so unless something goes wrong or errors-out, I am just sitting here twiddling my thumbs so I figured I'd bring some logic back to this forum.😀

CsG

You mean like teaching the impaired among us, to type pension in the search field .

How noble of you to try. 😀 Heh heh.

 

[MisterCornell]

Why are you associating this with Republicans? Do you have any proof that this is a Republican backed policy?

I'm a Republican, and my personal belief is that the government shouldn't bail out any private pension funds. If a company goes under, and you're a union member, then you're fscked. You should have thought about your company's welfare before you drove that hard bargain which drove them under.

 

[Zebo]

BBond- You think it sucks now...Just wait till the broke States and huge companies like GM and Ford start doing this, you're talking tens of millions losing thier retirement. The only "safe" retirwment plan I know of is Federal the way they've gutted reserve requirements and as risky as stocks are.

 

[Ozoned]

Originally posted by: BBond
Let me get this Republican "ownership society" of "personal responsibility" straight.

First you bail out industries using taxpayer dollars, then you deny the taxpayers who bailed out the industries the right to bankruptcy protection, then you allow the industries the taxpayers bailed out to take advantage of bankruptcy laws to shed billions of dollars in pension obligations to their employees, then the taxpayers foot the bill.

Well, About the PBGC. As opposed to the attention whore method of bringing a little truth to the forum .


About PBGC

A letter from the PBGC's Executive Director:

Welcome to PBGC

Mission and Background
PBGC was created by the Employee Retirement Income Security Act of 1974 to encourage the continuation and maintenance of voluntary private pension plans, provide timely and uninterrupted payment of pension benefits, and keep pension insurance premiums at a minimum. Defined benefit pension plans promise to pay a specified monthly benefit at retirement, commonly based on salary and years on the job.

Money PBGC Takes In and Pays Out
PBGC is not funded by general tax revenues. PBGC collects insurance premiums from employers that sponsor insured pension plans, earns money from investments and receives funds from pension plans it takes over. PBGC pays monthly retirement benefits, up to a guaranteed maximum, to about 518,000 retirees in 3,479 pension plans that ended. Including those who have not yet retired and participants in multiemployer plans receiving financial assistance, PBGC is responsible for the current and future pensions of about 1,061,000 people.

PBGC's Two Pension Insurance Programs
The single employer program protects 34.6 million workers and retirees in 29,651 pension plans. The multiemployer program protects 9.8 million workers and retirees in 1,587 pension plans. Multiemployer plans are set up by collectively bargained agreements involving more than one unrelated employer, generally in one industry.

How Pension Plans End
An employer can voluntarily ask to close its single employer pension plan in either a standard or distress termination. In a standard termination, the plan must have enough money to pay all benefits, whether vested or not, before the plan can end. After workers receive promised benefits, in the form of a lump sum payment or an insurance company annuity, PBGC' guarantee ends. In a distress termination, where the plan does not have enough money to pay all benefits, the employer must prove severe financial distress - for instance the likelihood that continuing the plan would force the company to shut down. PBGC will pay guaranteed benefits, usually covering a large part of total earned benefits, and make strong efforts to recover funds from the employer.

In addition, PBGC may seek to close a single employer plan without the employer's consent to protect the interests of workers, the plan or PBGC's insurance fund. PBGC must act to terminate a plan that cannot pay current benefits.

For multiemployer pension plans that are unable to pay guaranteed benefits when due, PBGC will provide financial assistance to the plan, usually a loan, so that retirees continue receiving their benefits.

Premium Rates
Pension plans pay PBGC yearly insurance premiums: $2.60 per worker or retiree in multiemployer plans; $19 per worker or retiree plus $9 for each $1,000 of unfunded vested benefits in single employer plans. Premium rates increase only if Congress approves.

Maximum Guaranteed Benefit
The maximum pension benefit guaranteed by PBGC is set by law and adjusted yearly. For plans ended in 2005, workers who retire at age 65 can receive up to $3,801.14 a month (or $45,613.68 a year). The guarantee is lower for those who retire early or when there is a benefit for a survivor. The guarantee is increased for those who retire after age 65.

PBGC Leadership
PBGC is headed by an Executive Director who reports to a Board of Directors consisting of the Secretaries of Labor, Commerce and Treasury, with the Secretary of Labor as Chairman.

 

[Zebo]

The government pays every year billions for PBGC. It's just another scam setup under the guise of "privatization" which the governemnt ultimatly is responsible for...S&L, Freddie Mac et al. same crap different players.

http://www.cbo.gov/showdoc.cfm?index=4944&sequence=0

 

[Ozoned]

Originally posted by: Zebo
The government pays every year billions for PBGC. It's just another scam setup under the guise of "privatization" which the governemnt ultimatly is responsible for...S&L, Freddie Mac et al. same crap different players.

http://www.cbo.gov/showdoc.cfm?index=4944&sequence=0

From 13 year old testimony:

The PBGC accumulated deficit will have to be funded in one of three ways: through higher premiums, reductions in costs, or a transfer from the general fund. All of these alternatives have significant disadvantages.

From PBGC website:

Money PBGC Takes In and Pays Out
PBGC is not funded by general tax revenues. PBGC collects insurance premiums from employers that sponsor insured pension plans, earns money from investments and receives funds from pension plans it takes over.

Guess we know how that turned out...