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Jordan Peterson: Telling Betas They are Alphas

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Who/where has advocated forcing anyone into anything they don't want? What specifically are you opposing? Female CS students traveling to high schools talking about their experience to other women? What is it that's the problem you see?

The problem is in the assumptions and the solutions created to meet the assumptions. It appears quite possible that the differences in personalities drive people to make choices that match their traits. Given the sex differences, that would mean that we would not see an equal representation by demographics. So, any policy to meet the goal of equality of outcome would be far worse in that case.

I'm thus opposing equality of outcome, while promoting equality of opportunity. That has been the discussion for a while now.
 
The problem is in the assumptions and the solutions created to meet the assumptions. It appears quite possible that the differences in personalities drive people to make choices that match their traits. Given the sex differences, that would mean that we would not see an equal representation by demographics. So, any policy to meet the goal of equality of outcome would be far worse in that case.

I'm thus opposing equality of outcome, while promoting equality of opportunity. That has been the discussion for a while now.
What are these oppressive policies that try to promote equality of outcome? Do you really think information campaigns that encourage girls into stem studies, and boys into nursing, are it? Is that what you have a problem with? You're very vague with what specifically you're against, just the abstract "policies". If this thesis is true won't it solve itself as fewer and fewer women go into stem?

Is still don't see how the number of female STEM grads could have been going up the last decades within each country if this theory holds? How is that explained?

I also think you put way too much weight on gender differences, which are weak outside societal pressure which starts in infancy and and are reinforce from there. When told from 3 years old they are bad at math is it surprising girls "choose" to avoid the field?
(yes I know you will claim these studies disprove that)
 
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What are these oppressive policies that try to promote equality of outcome? Do you really think information campaigns that encourage girls into stem studies, and boys into nursing, are it? Is that what you have a problem with? You're very vague with what specifically you're against, just the abstract "policies". If this thesis is true won't it solve itself as fewer and fewer women go into stem?

Is still don't see how the number of female STEM grads could have been going up the last decades within each country if this theory holds? How is that explained?

I also think you put way too much weight on gender differences, which are weak outside societal pressure which starts in infancy and and are reinforce from there. When told from 3 years old they are bad at math is it surprising girls "choose" to avoid the field?
(yes I know you will claim these studies disprove that)

You appear to not be able to represent my position correctly. Not sure I can find a reason that interest me enough to continue.
 
You appear to not be able to represent my position correctly. Not sure I can find a reason that interest me enough to continue.

Good. You seem unable to represent clearly what you're against and hide behind obfuscations and abstractions ("policies") so I was about to give up on this too. Glad we can agree.
 
Good. You seem unable to represent clearly what you're against and hide behind obfuscations and abstractions ("policies") so I was about to give up on this too. Glad we can agree.

Its clearly been established. I am against policies that would try to reach an outcome that is antithetical to freedom of choice. The data indicate that men and women are making different choices, and that is why we see different outcomes. If policies are put in place that try to reach a ratio that is not equal to what people would otherwise choose, then you are going to have to take away the rights of people. So, women that think they would be happier in a different profession would have to have that taken away from them, and or, extra incentives to seek out the desired profession.

So, policies such as requiring an equal number of female board members is setting up bad incentives.

https://www.npr.org/2018/10/01/6533...st-state-to-require-women-on-corporate-boards
 
Then think about this, why is it you are not sold on the studies? Is it because the conclusion goes against what you think to be true?

You are not alone. From the last study I linked to, you can find this.

"Sex differences in personality are larger in more gender equal countries. ). "

This was a surprise to many, but, it keeps holding true. When other factors are removed, biology can maximize.

Assuming this is true, what do you think we should be advocating for? Should it be to advocate to get more women into STEM, or, should we keep focusing on removing barriers and letting people choose?


I'm not sold on those studies because I'm skeptical of those sorts of studies in general. It's not a repeatable laboratory experiment, we only have existing real-world societies to compare, all of them specific products of contingent history. There seems to be an assumption smuggled in there that one can easily rate 'socially constructed norms concerning gender' on some abstract scale, divorced from the actual societies in which those norms exist, with their specific real-world cultures and histories.

I'm not utterly opposed to the _possibility_ that there's a deep gender preference for certain ways of thinking. It _might_ be the case, we can't say it definitely isn't. I used to think maybe that had something to do with autism being more common among boys, but recently it seems they've concluded its been under-diagnosed among girls (and I know several women I suspect are on that spectrum, and they seem to me to exemplify exactly what is said about it among girls - that they learn ways of compensating, and 'performing' appropriate emotional reactions, that make it less obvious there's something different going on).

But I don't see any society that is completely free from 'social norms' about gender, either in general or in the culture and practice of 'science'. Sweden or Finland very much included. There's more to gender pressures than the crude economic necessities the articles talk about.

I feel the same doubt about other claims to detect some underlying 'biological' signal under social 'noise' - it assumes we are able to even see that social noise, yet alone correct for it.

it does seem to be the case that in a place like Sweden (strongly social-democratic, allegedly 'liberal') you get women gravitating to 'human interaction skil based' (for want of a better term) jobs in social work and health-care, say, and in less liberal countries (which seem, not insignificantly, to be less economically-developed ones too) like China or Iran, those women who are in the workforce are more likely to be in scientific or engineering fields.

Having family from a less-developed-country it's long been obvious to me that in many such countries women are, to put it how I've sometimes thought of it in the past, "more geek-friendly", than in many Western ones.

Heck, I remember a Chinese science student ruefully commenting that he doesn't meet any women now he's working in the West, whereas in China women seemed far more likely to work in 'hard' sciences (he was unhappy about that for personal reasons rather than idealistic political ones!).

But I just don't fully buy the explanation that it's about some 'natural' preference coming out. There are too many confounding factors, it seems _way_ more complicated than that. The countries being looked at differ in a multitude of ways and not all those variables are independent. E.g. less-developed countries can attach huge social-status to STEM subjects, as they are seen as being 'modern' and vital for the national interest. Whereas in the older West, they have often been looked down on (precisely because someone will pay you to do them, hence they are not professions for the upper classes, STEM is for players not gentlemen).

How do they know that in those societies where choice is 'more free' (because of the existence of a welfare state, as you elsewhere mention) that there isn't still a strong gender-socialisation process at work?

The paper linked to on here seems a bit too quick to leap to talking about 'inherent' differences. As if anything that isn't determined by crude, obvious, economic pressures must be 'inherent' (i.e. biological?). I don't see that that follows at all. There are other differences in society that can mold preferences beyond just 'do I have to work in STEM from economic necessity'.
 
Its clearly been established. I am against policies that would try to reach an outcome that is antithetical to freedom of choice. The data indicate that men and women are making different choices, and that is why we see different outcomes. If policies are put in place that try to reach a ratio that is not equal to what people would otherwise choose, then you are going to have to take away the rights of people. So, women that think they would be happier in a different profession would have to have that taken away from them, and or, extra incentives to seek out the desired profession.

So, policies such as requiring an equal number of female board members is setting up bad incentives.

https://www.npr.org/2018/10/01/6533...st-state-to-require-women-on-corporate-boards


I thought you said you're done..?
I was wondering when you'd pull out that one. For the record I don't particularly like the mandated board seat policy, but even so:
- that has nothing to do with women and STEM college interest, which was the topic earlier
- if anything management is about human interaction, and a more "female" pursuit, so the opposite of interest in STEM fields. Shouldn't more women choose this then?

What are other policies that restrict women's (or men's I suppose) freedom of choice when it comes to math, science etc?

And yes I'm also for equality of opportunity; women should have the equal opportunity to choose STEM fields without generations of societal pressure telling them that "science is for boys". Encouraging more women to apply to STEM degrees does this (but they are free to quit if they don't like it).

PS: isn't also funny how it seem that women always "choose" the lower paid professions, not matter the subject? Science, because women don't like math, but "softer" fields like management, law and medicine; it's always men who choose the highest paid jobs, while women "prefer" to stay lower on the payscale. How strange.. I guess thousands of years on the savanna evolved women to dislike making money
 
Its clearly been established. I am against policies that would try to reach an outcome that is antithetical to freedom of choice. The data indicate that men and women are making different choices, and that is why we see different outcomes. If policies are put in place that try to reach a ratio that is not equal to what people would otherwise choose, then you are going to have to take away the rights of people. So, women that think they would be happier in a different profession would have to have that taken away from them, and or, extra incentives to seek out the desired profession.

So, policies such as requiring an equal number of female board members is setting up bad incentives.

https://www.npr.org/2018/10/01/6533...st-state-to-require-women-on-corporate-boards
Most choices are made for us long before we are aware of them.

Philosophy can help uncover those taken for granted assumptions.

Social action helps re-form them.

Don’t confuse changing what people, sociologically and culturally, take for granted with keeping you, personally and psychologically, desire to choose.
 
I'm not utterly opposed to the _possibility_ that there's a deep gender preference for certain ways of thinking. It _might_ be the case, we can't say it definitely isn't.

Having just read a book on the subject, since my 2nd child turned out to be a girl, in general decades of studies (rather than two) show that yes there are difference between the gender, but they are smaller than the differences within the genders. (The bell curves overlap much more than they don't..).

I also wondered about the relative development of the societies in these studies, like you say science education is relatively "new" in many of these places, so they don't necessarily have the ingrained gender expectations we have in the west (from the 1500s)
 
I thought you said you're done..?
I was wondering when you'd pull out that one. For the record I don't particularly like the mandated board seat policy, but even so:
- that has nothing to do with women and STEM college interest, which was the topic earlier
- if anything management is about human interaction, and a more "female" pursuit, so the opposite of interest in STEM fields. Shouldn't more women choose this then?

What are other policies that restrict women's (or men's I suppose) freedom of choice when it comes to math, science etc?

And yes I'm also for equality of opportunity; women should have the equal opportunity to choose STEM fields without generations of societal pressure telling them that "science is for boys". Encouraging more women to apply to STEM degrees does this (but they are free to quit if they don't like it).

PS: isn't also funny how it seem that women always "choose" the lower paid professions, not matter the subject? Science, because women don't like math, but "softer" fields like management, law and medicine; it's always men who choose the highest paid jobs, while women "prefer" to stay lower on the payscale. How strange.. I guess thousands of years on the savanna evolved women to dislike making money

The topic was established before you, its just you cant see past yourself to consider that not everything is about you.

The topic, is equality of outcome vs opportunity.

Post establishing this.

https://forums.anandtech.com/thread...g-betas-they-are-alphas.2558443/post-39675354

More.

https://forums.anandtech.com/thread...g-betas-they-are-alphas.2558443/post-39675368

Yet again, more.

https://forums.anandtech.com/thread...g-betas-they-are-alphas.2558443/post-39675525

Still going.

https://forums.anandtech.com/thread...g-betas-they-are-alphas.2558443/post-39675567

Oh my.

https://forums.anandtech.com/thread...g-betas-they-are-alphas.2558443/post-39676187

Wow.

https://forums.anandtech.com/thread...g-betas-they-are-alphas.2558443/post-39676389

There are more examples, but, I think it proves my point. What you want to do is make it seem like the discussion was something before, and I'm now trying to shift to avoid being wrong. That is not what is happening. Man up and be honest next time.
 
Most choices are made for us long before we are aware of them.

Philosophy can help uncover those taken for granted assumptions.

Social action helps re-form them.

Don’t confuse changing what people, sociologically and culturally, take for granted with keeping you, personally and psychologically, desire to choose.

I'm not making an is ought argument. I am saying that when you give women security as well as freedom, they pick things that are different from men. For sure there are social pressures that push and pull women. The point is, that its not only social pressure, but, biological ones as well. To expect a 50/50 representation in things like employment will actually give less freedom and equality to women as you would have to take away the freedom of choice.
 
Having just read a book on the subject, since my 2nd child turned out to be a girl, in general decades of studies (rather than two) show that yes there are difference between the gender, but they are smaller than the differences within the genders. (The bell curves overlap much more than they don't..).

I also wondered about the relative development of the societies in these studies, like you say science education is relatively "new" in many of these places, so they don't necessarily have the ingrained gender expectations we have in the west (from the 1500s)

Why then do you think we see a bimodal distribution when it comes to personality traits? There may be lots of individual variation from the baseline, but, that does not mean there is not an average by group characteristics.
 
The topic was established before you, its just you cant see past yourself to consider that not everything is about you.

The topic, is equality of outcome vs opportunity.

Nobody is arguing for equality of outcome, can you let this straw-man go already?! What are these forced policies that mandate 50% women in CS programs?

To the prvious post; yes there are differences, so maybe we should see a 45%-55% split female/male in field X. But in reality it's 20-80 (and 5-95 at the top)..
 
Nobody is arguing for equality of outcome, can you let this straw-man go already?! What are these forced policies that mandate 50% women in CS programs?

To the prvious post; yes there are differences, so maybe we should see a 45%-55% split female/male in field X. But in reality it's 20-80 (and 5-95 at the top)..

First, had you been paying attention, you would have seen that people were arguing for equality of outcome. Its clearly there, and you can see it any time you want. There are currently 12 pages in this thread, its not that hard to find given I gave you links to my posts. Just because you were so arrogant that you thought you understood does not change reality.

Also, I already answered why you might not expect a 45/55 split. If life and career were 1 choice, you might, but, life is made up of many choices. Each choice opens up new possibilities while excluding others. So, given that you are trying to look at the OUTCOME of someone's career choices, you would actually not expect such close ratios. A small set of differences can have a compound effect when the measured outcome is influenced by a long window of multiple choices.

Read up.
 
First, had you been paying attention, you would have seen that people were arguing for equality of outcome. Its clearly there, and you can see it any time you want. There are currently 12 pages in this thread, its not that hard to find given I gave you links to my posts. Just because you were so arrogant that you thought you understood does not change reality.

Also, I already answered why you might not expect a 45/55 split. If life and career were 1 choice, you might, but, life is made up of many choices. Each choice opens up new possibilities while excluding others. So, given that you are trying to look at the OUTCOME of someone's career choices, you would actually not expect such close ratios. A small set of differences can have a compound effect when the measured outcome is influenced by a long window of multiple choices.

Read up.

No, YOU'RE the one who keeps saying equality of outcome! equality of outcome! constantly. Between that, and wild strawmaning I'm wondering if you're Jordan Peterson himself?
 
No, YOU'RE the one who keeps saying equality of outcome! equality of outcome! constantly. Between that, and wild strawmaning I'm wondering if you're Jordan Peterson himself?

Oh, I thought it was only about STEM, but, now I'm only discussing equality of outcome. My my, you are now flailing about and unable to keep focused. I now get why you could not represent my position accurately. Its not that you were being dishonest, its that you are unable to stay on topic/focused.

If you can get back to the topic and stop pouting, let me know.
 
Oh, I thought it was only about STEM, but, now I'm only discussing equality of outcome. My my, you are now flailing about and unable to keep focused. I now get why you could not represent my position accurately. Its not that you were being dishonest, its that you are unable to stay on topic/focused.

If you can get back to the topic and stop pouting, let me know.
The dishonesty here is your unwillingness to recognize the man isn’t calling for enforced equality of outcomes - only consideration of unequal outcomes as likely red flags indicative of harmful, unfair, processes.

But you are too in love with the authority of our existing system to ever see that.
 
The dishonesty here is your unwillingness to recognize the man isn’t calling for enforced equality of outcomes - only consideration of unequal outcomes as likely red flags indicative of harmful, unfair, processes.

But you are too in love with the authority of our existing system to ever see that.

I'm not accusing him, he is the one accusing me. What I said was that trying to achieve an equal outcome will do more harm than good.
 
I'm not accusing him, he is the one accusing me. What I said was that trying to achieve an equal outcome will do more harm than good.
It can, yes.

Any change can do more harm than good. More to your point, trying to “make” outcomes fair after the cultural system has processed a person is deeply dangerous.

But it’s not that the system has to be tuned to pure equality of outcomes; it’s that if your system is producing major, productivity harming, disparities it’s a red flag for something harmful or unfair in the system.

It’s absolutely essential we distinguish between trying to “force” outcomes to be equal and reorientation of our systems so they produce less harmful outcomes.
 
It can, yes.

Any change can do more harm than good. More to your point, trying to “make” outcomes fair after the cultural system has processed a person is deeply dangerous.

But it’s not that the system has to be tuned to pure equality of outcomes; it’s that if your system is producing major, productivity harming, disparities it’s a red flag for something harmful or unfair in the system.

It’s absolutely essential we distinguish between trying to “force” outcomes to be equal and reorientation of our systems so they produce less harmful outcomes.

I'm getting at something else though. The very idea of what is fair is what I'm disputing. We don't know what fair is.

There is a false belief that everyone is the same, and, it's society and experience that developes people's preference. While it is true that society and experience play a major role, it's not the only factor. Biology also has an influence.

So, seeing differences does not show sexism, or gender inequality. What is fair is to let individuals make the choices for themselves, while trying to make sure that arbitrary inhibitors are removed and or prevented.

The goal sold not be equal outcomes.
 
I'm getting at something else though. The very idea of what is fair is what I'm disputing. We don't know what fair is.

There is a false belief that everyone is the same, and, it's society and experience that developes people's preference. While it is true that society and experience play a major role, it's not the only factor. Biology also has an influence.

So, seeing differences does not show sexism, or gender inequality. What is fair is to let individuals make the choices for themselves, while trying to make sure that arbitrary inhibitors are removed and or prevented.

The goal sold not be equal outcomes.
The moment a measure becomes the goal it becomes a bad measure and a bad goal.

Inequality is a measure indicative of a need for systemic change. But we need to unpack specific systemic causes, NOT of inequality, but if the harmful or unfair causes of inequality.

For example, (and I don’t know if any of this is true, just an example) if black communities experience shootings more than white, but black communities are committing crimes at a much higher rate and their being policed is in accord with their crime rate, and their shooting rate is in accord with their police contact rate, then the goal should not be to reduce policing of black communities - that hurts the upstanding citizen living in a black neighborhood and dependent on policing - the goal should instead be to find the systemic issue leading to increased crime.

Bigots will blame race, by appealing to individual responsibility and implicitly accepting the systemic cause is race; but as reasonable educated persons we know skin color does not systematically produce violence.

Now “individual responsibility” is 100% an essential mental mechanism for the individual; but as an argument for not attending to the harmful causes of societal inequity, it’s just evil.

Infact, the Old Testament is rife with cities and peoples who fall because they allowed such inequity to thrive amongst them. And I think those are really good moral lessons - when the weak and poor are blamed for their own oppression, God (or the nature of humans in society) judges harshly.


This is why inequality is a good measure. But 100% equality of all outcomes is not a good goal: not being harmed or treated unfairly because of ones positon in society is a good goal which we can have indicated to us by he presence of abject inequality of outcomes.

If socially and culturally the circumstances of a persons birth do not lead them to harm or unfair treatment, then I submit that the remaining inequality of outcomes is just and fair.

Unfortunately it’s easy to see justice in your own experience and expect that it is justice for all. Which is why we need a more objective measure.

Despite the lies in the pledge we were indoctrinated with, we do not have justice for all. Circumstances of birth play a large role in how we turn out. Though all of life is not purely determined by social factors, it is much harder to becom upper middle class when you are born in a trailer.
 
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I'm getting at something else though. The very idea of what is fair is what I'm disputing. We don't know what fair is.

There is a false belief that everyone is the same, and, it's society and experience that developes people's preference. While it is true that society and experience play a major role, it's not the only factor. Biology also has an influence.

So, seeing differences does not show sexism, or gender inequality. What is fair is to let individuals make the choices for themselves, while trying to make sure that arbitrary inhibitors are removed and or prevented.

The goal sold not be equal outcomes.

Right, the goal should be to reduce whatever aspect of inequality is caused by social norms - assuming this can be done in a non-authoritarian way - and whatever remains is biology and hence not something we need to fret over. But we aren't there yet.

There have been hundreds of studies on the subject of gender inequality and the results are a mixed bag in terms of what seems to be down to biology versus socialization. This is about as thorough a summary of it as you'll find:

https://heterodoxacademy.org/the-google-memo-what-does-the-research-say-about-gender-differences/

This is also useful:

https://ourworldindata.org/biology-pay-gap

An important example at the end of that one which describes how the introduction of cable television to rural areas in India changed the attitudes of women dramatically because the programming they saw depicted women in a more modern and empowered way, which was something to which they were previously unfamiliar.

We're just not at that stage yet, where we can say, whelp, we removed most of the discrimination, the rest is down to biology, and throw up our hands.
 
Does it make any more sense to those participating in this thread now that wanted to push either the notion that measuring equality of outcome is something we need to consider doing for it's diagnostic value and those warning of the danger of trying to achieve that equality in the absolute can now understand better the strength and weaknesses of either pursued without regard for the positives of the other? We want to reduce the barriers to inequality that are based on some form of gender stereotype that excludes without pushing to deny natural preferences that may still exist with those problems disappear via social change, or word to this effect that could be better stated.
 
Its clearly been established. I am against policies that would try to reach an outcome that is antithetical to freedom of choice. The data indicate that men and women are making different choices, and that is why we see different outcomes. If policies are put in place that try to reach a ratio that is not equal to what people would otherwise choose, then you are going to have to take away the rights of people. So, women that think they would be happier in a different profession would have to have that taken away from them, and or, extra incentives to seek out the desired profession.

So, policies such as requiring an equal number of female board members is setting up bad incentives.

https://www.npr.org/2018/10/01/6533...st-state-to-require-women-on-corporate-boards

Women-in-board-rooms is a whole other issue. I'm a bit jaded about that kind of feminism myself - all it seems to be about is elite women getting a share along with their menfolk. Doesn't seem to do much for anyone else. And who is likely to take advantage of it? The female family members of the existing men on those board rooms, and almost certainly, on average, it will be the few marginalised outsider males (lower-class origin, PoC, disabled...) who will be squeezed out to make room for rich white able-bodied women.

I don't care either way about that one. Let the board-room classes argue it out among themselves.


I'm getting at something else though. The very idea of what is fair is what I'm disputing. We don't know what fair is.

There is a false belief that everyone is the same, and, it's society and experience that developes people's preference. While it is true that society and experience play a major role, it's not the only factor. Biology also has an influence.

So, seeing differences does not show sexism, or gender inequality. What is fair is to let individuals make the choices for themselves, while trying to make sure that arbitrary inhibitors are removed and or prevented.

The goal sold not be equal outcomes.

I'm never going to accept this disengenous emphasis on 'equality of opportunity'. It's a close relative of 'rich and poor alike are free to sleep under bridges'. It's what gave us the 11-plus and grammar schools and the attempt to justify class differences in terms of supposedly innate IQ (funny that in the US the same IQ tests were employed to demonstrate the inferiority of disadvantaged races, where as here it was all about justifying class stratification).

Why should anyone accept it? "Equality of opportunity" erases itself. Meritocracy is the shortest route from plutocracy to plutocracy.

With gender-differences we simply don't know what biological effects there might be (to be clear, I don't rule it out, but science so far can tell us very little with any degree of confidence about that). We do know there is such a thing as society and social pressures and norms, and a million small ways class and gender differentiation reproduces itself. You keep pretending those don't exist and that the issue is simpler than it is.
 
First we have to deal with equal opportunity before we can assess what equal outcome should look like or not, I propose that it makes no sense evaluating, like Peterson is doing, what genders natural preferences may or may not be before this is achieved.
Consider that the burden of childbirth be shared 50/50 between the sexes, or same sexes, doesnt matter. I know this is so progressive that the conservatives in here is already eyeballing twice over, but hear me out please.
Even in the most progressive of progressive countries in the world, Scandinavia, one of the major factors in inequality in the workplace today is the womb. It is illegal and should not happen but it does, be a woman of 30 years of age, no children, steady relationship, I guarantee that you will have a MUCH tougher time finding a new job than your male counterpart. (we all know why)
Equalize that equation and see what happens with "equal outcome".

Also, this takes a generation or two, the first generations of equal women in Scandinavia is having a tough time too. This is a subjective observation by me, it goes from personal experience and observing every other relationship I encounter; there is still a pattern of inequality in the home, this is what women have been brought up with so instinctively they seek these patterns themselves. Women tend to govern the home, the kids, the interior.. This leads to the interesting conclusion that many women instinctively seeks to take the point on the home front while at the same time being super consciously aware that they must achieve equal rights in the workplace and have a career. its like 75/25 in the women's favor, I swear to god some of these girls are wearing themselves down. This is all bound to level out over time... But I will be weary of any study that takes the temperature on current settings and concludes that equal outcome is a fad... There may never be "equal outcome", cause gender, but the current outcome sure as hell is not optimal.
 
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