• Guest, The rules for the P & N subforum have been updated to prohibit "ad hominem" or personal attacks against other posters. See the full details in the post "Politics and News Rules & Guidelines."

John McCain admits hundreds of thousands dead in Iraq war

Page 3 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

EXman

Lifer
Jul 12, 2001
20,083
15
81
Originally posted by: Perry404
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=311_1207160690

Was/is it worth it?
My hypothesis is that McCain's estimate is fairly accurate.
So in order to save a few thousand American lives we have killed hundreds of thousands of ignorant world peoples that don't know shit from shinola.
You're both pulling numbers out your ass. That Old fart doesn't know Shit from Shinola.
 

ultra laser

Banned
Jul 2, 2007
513
0
0
The war has been unsuccessful insofar as it has produced an entire generation of people who utterly hate America. In other words, it has created more potential terrorists.
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,599
5
0
Originally posted by: ericlp
Originally posted by: Common Courtesy
So in order to save a few thousand American lives we have killed hundreds of thousands of ignorant world peoples that don't know shit from shinola.
Iraq chooses to have civil wars. - Therefore, the word we is a stretch of responsibility.

It was a pressure cooker that the lid was being kept on by Saddam.

Are we responsible for all those killed by Japan because we were cutting of their access to Pacific islands?
Geeez Troll much? How does Japan come into play on this...

STAY ON TOPIC....
The topic is killing by others that are being blamed on us.

The analogy of Japan would then be spot on. Japan went to war and killed thousands/millions because the rouindeyes were cutting off their supplies.

Based upon the analogy used by the OP, we are responsible for Naking/Seol/Singapore/Manila and other areas. then possibly the issues with Mainland China.

All because we would not leave Japan alone.

The same is happening in Iraq. We stuck our noses in there and now people are killing each other - some want to blame us.

How do they draw the line?

 

conehead433

Diamond Member
Dec 4, 2002
5,210
264
126
Originally posted by: The Green Bean
Originally posted by: conehead433
That's what they get for attacking us on 9-11. LOL
Another stupid brainwashed American.
You didn't notice the included sarcasm. Sadly that's still what a lot of Americans think because of the continual linking by shitheads like Dick Cheney.
 

DukeN

Golden Member
Dec 12, 1999
1,423
0
76
Originally posted by: conehead433
That's what they get for attacking us on 9-11. LOL
Wow, just wow. Like..so wow.

Sorry, words escape me on this one.
 

SphinxnihpS

Diamond Member
Feb 17, 2005
8,368
24
81
I smite you!

Grab yourself a Bible and a Q'uran and read them. I assume you're either some sort of Christian, or you're non-religious, but either way you just showed us that you don't know any more about religion than what you are told. The Q'uran conatins exactly zero mentions of stoning. Conversely, the Bible conatins many specific mentions and presciptions for stoning.

You are also confusing third-world countries like Afganistan with modernized ones like Iraq.

For the record I think Bush is a terrible liar. I'd love to play poker with him! I also think that, especially when scared, large groups of people are as stupid as birds, so he didn't have to be such a good liar. On top of that there were plenty of people that saw right through all of this prior to the invasion, but mass hysteria is difficult to overcome. It still lasts to this day.

We have no right to set up a base there, see #1.

Finally, the moral arguments are the one you disagree with.
 

piasabird

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
17,183
60
91
I dont see how we can attack another country, when we can not even secure our southern border. It is rediculous. Terrorists can just cross our southern border any time they want.

What makes Iraq a modern country? They are still having turf battles between warlords. Or at least they were. Sadams method of dealing with them would have been to cut off the water and the electricity and close their sewage plant.
 

SphinxnihpS

Diamond Member
Feb 17, 2005
8,368
24
81
Originally posted by: ultra laser
The war has been unsuccessful insofar as it has produced an entire generation of people who utterly hate America. In other words, it has created more potential terrorists.
This is the reason the waw is a SUCCESS! This war has been envisioned all along as a perpetual war and means of control, just like the war on drugs. Read 1984 and tell me if we are fighting Eurasia or East Asia, and for that matter what the price of chocolate is.

 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,599
5
0
Originally posted by: SphinxnihpS
I smite you!

Grab yourself a Bible and a Q'uran and read them. I assume you're either some sort of Christian, or you're non-religious, but either way you just showed us that you don't know any more about religion than what you are told. The Q'uran contains exactly zero mentions of stoning. Conversely, the Bible contains many specific mentions and prescriptions for stoning.

You are also confusing third-world countries like Afganistan with modernized ones like Iraq.

For the record I think Bush is a terrible liar. I'd love to play poker with him! I also think that, especially when scared, large groups of people are as stupid as birds, so he didn't have to be such a good liar. On top of that there were plenty of people that saw right through all of this prior to the invasion, but mass hysteria is difficult to overcome. It still lasts to this day.

We have no right to set up a base there, see #1.

Finally, the moral arguments are the one you disagree with.
Make sure to separate the old vs new testament of the bible that you refer to.

The right to set up a base is dependant on the host country.

 

chucky2

Lifer
Dec 9, 1999
10,038
36
86
Originally posted by: Lemon law
Chuchy2 just does not get it with---P.S. No offense to Muslims meant by the dog reference...just got back from seeing the new Lab puppy in the family...

At last something we can agree on. Labs are great dogs and I have had some in the past and have one now. And the only problem I ever had with labs is that they die of old age too soon.
Yep, finally something we agree on.

You on the other hand are not a great human being.
I just feel all torn up you'd think that about me, given your opinions are so well thought out and weighty... :roll:

You talk about regime change for others, but are blind to the fact that we are outnumbered 20 to 1.
Here's a news flash for you: We already accomplished regime change...outnumbered 20 to 1. We're past the regime stage part. Now we're into the establish goodwill and then GTFU.

And very soon, if we do not change our arrogant tune, the rest of the world and for the safety of the rest of the world will be talking about regime change for us.
LL, get this straight: The rest of the world, minus China and Russia, are a bunch of p*ssies (I left out UK since they're so closely allied with us). They let the US do The West's dirty work, when they could just as easily step up to the plate, and then whine and b1tch about how it gets done. I want you to think very clearly here (I know, it's hard): The "rest of the world" couldn't scrape together 24 F'ing helicopters for UN Peacekeeping use in Sudan. If you seriously are giving consideration to what "the rest of the world" thinks over the long term security of your own nation, then you are far far far dumber than I even imagined.

We have gone from being a moral force in the world to moral degenerates in less than a decade. And from a gentle giant to a rabit dog that must be quarantined to save the rest of the world. Time will swiftly take care of GWB&co, you will still be the sickness within.
Less than a decade? Well LL, how can you explain the Iraqi sanctions in the 90's killing 100k's of people? You mean less than 2 decades right? But wait, how about us "leaving" those Afghani people in the 80's? You mean 3 decades right?

Sorry, we can not say we are Mr. Fix it, we just don't have the track record anymore. Now we must fix ourselves and the place to start has to be with you and other arrogant people who think you can fix things by force. You may think you are competent, but that kind of thinking seldom if ever make anything better.
The track record? Our track record is that when we actually commit as a nation to doing something, it gets done. Not UN "the people we're trying to help are all dead because we dragged our feet because we really in reality don't give two shits about them" done, but, actually done. It's when we have F'ing second, third, twelvth guessers like yourself second, third, and twelvth b1tching every decision and setback that does more damage to our efforts then any enemy ever could.

You are the failure in Iraq, not US forces. Your lack of support to commit to go all the way causes the spine lacking politicians in DC to pull up short and half or quarter commit to whatever we're trying to achieve. It happened in Vietnam, and now it's happening in Iraq.

Go feed your dog 1/4 of what he's supposed to get and ask him how he likes that...my guess is he won't be happy.

P.S. Again: Long term: Short of invading Iraq, what is your plan to change the dynamics of the ME Leadership (both political and religious) to keep them from brainwashing their populous?

You still haven't come up with any alternative solution...proving you can whine and b1tch, yet you offer up no solutions of your own. We're all still waiting...come on LL, what's it going to be????

Chuck
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,991
2
0
Like a broken record its still the chucky2 do gooder saving the world from being brainwashed with---Short of invading Iraq, what is your plan to change the dynamics of the ME Leadership (both political and religious) to keep them from brainwashing their populous?

Thats it isn't it, its your job to save the world. Where does that come from? When did you start. Do you break into American bedrooms in the middle of the night asking if you can help them across the street come morning? And now that America is saved by countless like boy scout actions, you will take your show on the road and save the rest of the world.

Or are you more like a 4 year old child put into a car seat with a make believe steering wheel. And if you mimic daddy's actions, sure enough, the car turns. Or are you more like a car mechanic whose only tool in their tool box is a stick of dynamite and with the belief that he can blow the engine up, and while its in the air, blown into little pieces, it will magically reassemble itself and be fixed.

That sounds more like the boy blunder actions of GWB, you can choose to emulate those braindead beliefs or realize that sometimes you can only lead by example. Especially when its the GWB types that are giving out taxpayer bucks to the people brainwashing their people. You don't seem to remember the pictures of Rummy shaking Saddam's hand, saying buy poison gas, and go forth and invade Iran? Or that the Mullah of Iran were made inevitable because we supported
and trained the Shah's secret police?

You are the one that is brainwashed and dangerously delusional. If I can stop people like you here, the rest of the world will take care of itself. That is my plan.
 
Oct 27, 2007
17,019
2
0
Originally posted by: chucky2
This would be great as well...but how to accomplish that? First, the SA is SA, not Iraq...meaning the rest of the world wouldn't let us do to SA what they didn't give two sh1ts about for Iraq (OK, maybe 1.5 sh1ts...).
Are you being intentionally dense or are you just a fucking idiot? Don't you recall the massive protests reminiscent of the Vietnam era happening all over the world? Apart from Bush's boy-toy Blair and Aussie PM Howard, the rest of the world was furious about the Iraq war. Not everyone is a gullible as the American public and not everyone is complicit in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Iraqi citizens. Grow up, troll.
 

chucky2

Lifer
Dec 9, 1999
10,038
36
86
Originally posted by: Lemon law
Like a broken record its still the chucky2 do gooder saving the world from being brainwashed with---Short of invading Iraq, what is your plan to change the dynamics of the ME Leadership (both political and religious) to keep them from brainwashing their populous?

Thats it isn't it, its your job to save the world. Where does that come from? When did you start. Do you break into American bedrooms in the middle of the night asking if you can help them across the street come morning? And now that America is saved by countless like boy scout actions, you will take your show on the road and save the rest of the world.

Or are you more like a 4 year old child put into a car seat with a make believe steering wheel. And if you mimic daddy's actions, sure enough, the car turns. Or are you more like a car mechanic whose only tool in their tool box is a stick of dynamite and with the belief that he can blow the engine up, and while its in the air, blown into little pieces, it will magically reassemble itself and be fixed.

That sounds more like the boy blunder actions of GWB, you can choose to emulate those braindead beliefs or realize that sometimes you can only lead by example. Especially when its the GWB types that are giving out taxpayer bucks to the people brainwashing their people. You don't seem to remember the pictures of Rummy shaking Saddam's hand, saying buy poison gas, and go forth and invade Iran? Or that the Mullah of Iran were made inevitable because we supported
and trained the Shah's secret police?

You are the one that is brainwashed and dangerously delusional. If I can stop people like you here, the rest of the world will take care of itself. That is my plan.
Again: Long term: Short of invading Iraq, what is your plan to change the dynamics of the ME Leadership (both political and religious) to keep them from brainwashing their populous?

Answer the question LL with real solutions are you are just a little whining b1tch boy. Put up or STFU. Pick one.

You can't though can you...that's all you have is whining, no real solutions, just constant b1tching if it doesn't fit your 'Do nothing and hope it goes away' approach.

Chuck
 

chucky2

Lifer
Dec 9, 1999
10,038
36
86
Originally posted by: GodlessAstronomer
Originally posted by: chucky2
This would be great as well...but how to accomplish that? First, the SA is SA, not Iraq...meaning the rest of the world wouldn't let us do to SA what they didn't give two sh1ts about for Iraq (OK, maybe 1.5 sh1ts...).
Are you being intentionally dense or are you just a fucking idiot? Don't you recall the massive protests reminiscent of the Vietnam era happening all over the world? Apart from Bush's boy-toy Blair and Aussie PM Howard, the rest of the world was furious about the Iraq war. Not everyone is a gullible as the American public and not everyone is complicit in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Iraqi citizens. Grow up, troll.
Furious???? My god, the rest of the world was furious???? OMG!!!! Did they fly their military into Iraq to be a Coalition of the Unwilling against us? Did they fly their civ's in to act as human shields to prevent our bombing campaign?

You mean, all they did was what they usually do, and that's blab blab blab but not actually do anything? So, what you're really saying is that they didn't really care...they just snob cared. Got it.

P.S. We didn't kill 100k's of people, that's Muslim on Muslim violence. Those EU types are holding mass protests about that right now too? Wait?!?! They're not?!?!? Oh. That's because they're busy preventing another few 100k slaughtered in Sudan, right? Oh....right....I forgot...aliens came down and took all the helicopters away from the EU, I remember now.

When other countries actually start putting themselves on the line instead of just hiding behind the US/UK, then I'll give one flying F what they think. Until then, they're just a bunch of LL's, useless b1tchers.

Chuck
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
71,514
21,507
136
Originally posted by: chucky2

Again: Long term: Short of invading Iraq, what is your plan to change the dynamics of the ME Leadership (both political and religious) to keep them from brainwashing their populous?

Answer the question LL with real solutions are you are just a little whining b1tch boy. Put up or STFU. Pick one.

You can't though can you...that's all you have is whining, no real solutions, just constant b1tching if it doesn't fit your 'Do nothing and hope it goes away' approach.

Chuck
How does invading Iraq accomplish this goal? I still don't understand how creating the single greatest extremist recruiting cause that the muslim world has seen outside of occupied Palestine helps our cause.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,991
2
0
Perhaps the chucky2 logical fallacy is as follows and rests in the assumptions we make.

There is nothing wrong with seeing the problems in others. Its far easier than seeing the problems in ourselves. But still there is nothing wrong with hoping that the world will be a better place if those problems in others can be solved. And there is some logical validity in that.

The fallacy is that because we are right and good, our attempt to address those problem will automatically ALWAYS succeed because our cause is just. And to not address those problems, is a moral failing in us.

When in fact, three basic outcomes are possible.

1. We end up having no effect. In which case why bother.
2. Despite our best intentions, we manage to make the situation much much worse.
3. We do make the situation better.

The point being, unless we are extremely competent, do we get desired outcome #2. Only rarely and never in the history of GWB&co. , do we get outcome #3.

Yet if we listen to chucky2, merely addressing the problem always leads to outcome #3. See the results chucky2, see the reality of the outcomes we get. What part of those undesirable outcomes do you not understand?
 

chucky2

Lifer
Dec 9, 1999
10,038
36
86
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: chucky2

Again: Long term: Short of invading Iraq, what is your plan to change the dynamics of the ME Leadership (both political and religious) to keep them from brainwashing their populous?

Answer the question LL with real solutions are you are just a little whining b1tch boy. Put up or STFU. Pick one.

You can't though can you...that's all you have is whining, no real solutions, just constant b1tching if it doesn't fit your 'Do nothing and hope it goes away' approach.

Chuck
How does invading Iraq accomplish this goal? I still don't understand how creating the single greatest extremist recruiting cause that the muslim world has seen outside of occupied Palestine helps our cause.
The act of invading Iraq accomplishes nothing but kicking out Saddam. What people are failing to grasp about Iraq and Afghanistan is that it's going to take long term committment by the US/West to gain the good intentions of those people. The short term is that Yes going in does create a mini-backlash for the brainwashed/disillusioned. Long term gains will vastly outweigh short terms losses if Iraq and Afghanistan are handled right.

The US is the Gimme it now and Gimme it cheap mentality...that's not going to work here. It's going to take a long time, it's going to cost (both monetary and life), and it's going to have ups and downs.

We (the US/West) have done a bad job with Iraq and Afghanistan in this regard - but that does not mean we shouldn't have went in, it just means we need to focus on the long term goal and make the efforts for that to happen.

Chuck
 

chucky2

Lifer
Dec 9, 1999
10,038
36
86
Originally posted by: Lemon law
Perhaps the chucky2 logical fallacy is as follows and rests in the assumptions we make.

There is nothing wrong with seeing the problems in others. Its far easier than seeing the problems in ourselves. But still there is nothing wrong with hoping that the world will be a better place if those problems in others can be solved. And there is some logical validity in that.

The fallacy is that because we are right and good, our attempt to address those problem will automatically ALWAYS succeed because our cause is just. And to not address those problems, is a moral failing in us.

When in fact, three basic outcomes are possible.

1. We end up having no effect. In which case why bother.
2. Despite our best intentions, we manage to make the situation much much worse.
3. We do make the situation better.

The point being, unless we are extremely competent, do we get desired outcome #2. Only rarely and never in the history of GWB&co. , do we get outcome #3.

Yet if we listen to chucky2, merely addressing the problem always leads to outcome #3. See the results chucky2, see the reality of the outcomes we get. What part of those undesirable outcomes do you not understand?
No <edited by request of Mod>person who just consistenly does not get it</edited by request of Mod>, addressing the problem doesn't always lead to outcome #3. Addressing the problem and doing it right will probably lead to outcome #3. We haven't been doing it right - or at least, not near as right as we could - and that's costing us in the goodwill and 'in good faith' department. We are literally failing the Afghani's, and seriously coming up short with the Iraqi's.

That doesn't mean you don't address the problem though.

You would have us do #4 always because that's what gets the 1 minute of nightly bad news off your TV at night. #4 btw is doing nothing...the UN approach. The same type of approach that brought us all the small scale AQ attacks, the same type of approach that brought us 9/11, the same type of approach that brought us NK going nuke, the same type of approach that is going to bring us Iran going nuke, etc. That's your way. You'll say something meaningless like 'Diplomacy' but the reality is that 'Diplomacy' brought 14 UN resolutions in perpetuam. 'Dimplomacy' brought NK going nuke, 'Dimplacy' will bring us Iran going nuke, etc.

You still, after many many many many many multiple postings, have totally failed to offer up one possible solution for my question. One. Do you work for the UN?

Realize this...try to get it through your head: The world is not a nice place. Sometimes, in some situation, you must take action - any action - to prevent something worse from happening down the line. This isn't Koolaid drinking, it's not 'fear mongering', it's F'ing common sense! You have none. Please, just make some 'The fallacy of...' post and lets just be done with this...then you can go bury your head in the sand until something bad happens, and then scream, How could this have happened?!?!? Why didn't 'they' (the same people you commonly rail against) do 'something' (the something that 'they' try to do, yet you slam having absolutely no solution of your own).

Unbelieve...totally F'ing unbelievable...

Chuck
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,991
2
0
As Chucky2 so diplomatically puts it, the core of our disagreement lies here---No dumb@ss, addressing the problem doesn't always lead to outcome #3. Addressing the problem and doing it right will probably lead to outcome #3. We haven't been doing it right - or at least, not near as right as we could - and that's costing us in the goodwill and 'in good faith' department. We are literally failing the Afghani's, and seriously coming up short with the Iraqi's.

That doesn't mean you don't address the problem though.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ok, we get back to the same page here. We both want outcome #3, you finally at least concede we got outcome #2 instead, so how do we know in advance if we will get outcome #2 or #3? Especially since the most probable out come is usually outcome #2. See recent history. See old saying, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

But you done put your unwitting finger on it with-------That does not mean you don't address the problem though.

Which is the other fallacy you have in assuming only we address the problem. I hate to tell you chucky2, that logic cuts both ways. When we shove, sometimes they sometimes feel they must shove back because we are the evil they must address. Maybe you don't feel that basing troops in Saudi Arabia during Gulf war 1 was any big deal, but to many that was a deadly insult that must be avenged. Maybe you are OK with the fact that the arabs ended up with losing hundreds of thousand compared to the less than 3000 we lost, but you should recognize the other side may not think thats a fair bargain especially since those that paid the price had nothing to due with the original grievance. But what is ignored in this whole so called GWB war on terror, is that we are creating more terrorists than we kill.

So bottom line chucky2, its your stinking thinking that is making me less safe. Believe me Chucky2, I don't like that one little bit, and if you are going to be running around making me less safe, we are going to come into conflict. And you are going to be the PROBLEM I MUST ADDRESS.

We can differ in opinion, but we can't share our countries foreign policy. I look forward to seeing you and GWB being cast into the scrap bin of history.
 

Skyclad1uhm1

Lifer
Aug 10, 2001
11,384
87
91
Originally posted by: conehead433
That's what they get for attacking us on 9-11. LOL
That they are left alone in Pakistan so they can plan their next attacks without being attacked? Good thing Bush is one of their supporters, someone else might have actually targetted them rather than Iraq after 9/11.
 

dahunan

Lifer
Jan 10, 2002
18,191
1
0
Originally posted by: Specop 007
Delegitimizing the single biggest terrorist organization in the world.

Yeah, what a fuck up Iraq has been......
Neocons are still in charge ... they are the World Terrorists.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,991
2
0
I do not per say see that there is anything especially wrong with McCain having a neocon adviser. What is wrong is having a President who listens to just one monochrome type of advisers when the idea is to have a diversity of viewpoints. Nor do I per say see there is always that much wrong with neocon goals, its my opinion that its the means to get to the goals that is the main neocon defect.
 

ASK THE COMMUNITY