John LeCarre on war with Iraq

[Hayabusa Rider]

Whee!

Here we go again. Hagbard, this is the best flame material I have seen today. Not that I mind you posting it, because frankly I am not going to get the old boys twisted like so many I see here, and I agree with some of it (though not all by any means). I wonder if with 100,000 members, if there are people who come by who never or seldom post just to see how the children are playing. Time for time out?

Anyway, nicely done.

 

[freakflag]

Which is odd, because I?m dead against Bush, but I would love to see Saddam?s downfall ? just not on Bush?s terms and not by his methods.

What an arrogant, self-serving bag of d!ck this guy is.

"Oh...sure we would like to see Saddam dead...we just don't want AMERICA to do it. Perhaps if we, the rest of the world, just sit back ass over thumb for just a little while longer...he will just go away. Oui Oui "

God D@mnit I hate the French. :|

 

[FrancesBeansRevenge]

Bush sucks. His administration scares me. I hope to God he is out in '04.

That said, most of the links Hagbard posts are just as much propaganda as say links to Foxnews.
There are massive amounts of propaganda being thrown at us from the right AND the left.

I often see those with left-leaning ideals embracing almost anything that echoes thier viewpoint as accurate and credible
while dismissing everything that espouses an opposing viewpoint as propaganda.
I would expect this behaviour from closed minded Right wingers not the 'enlightened' left.

Very sad to see the supposedly 'enlightened' among us biting equally hard on propaganda.
It certainly doesn't help thier position among those of us sitting on the fence.

 

[Orsorum]

Originally posted by: freakflag

Which is odd, because I?m dead against Bush, but I would love to see Saddam?s downfall ? just not on Bush?s terms and not by his methods.

What an arrogant, self-serving bag of d!ck this guy is.

"Oh...sure we would like to see Saddam dead...we just don't want AMERICA to do it. Perhaps if we, the rest of the world, just sit back ass over thumb for just a little while longer...he will just go away. Oui Oui "

God D@mnit I hate the French. :|

And why do you hate the French?

 

[freakflag]

And why do you hate the French?

Because they're always so God d@mned FRENCH!:disgust:

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Originally posted by: Zakath15

Originally posted by: freakflag

Which is odd, because I?m dead against Bush, but I would love to see Saddam?s downfall ? just not on Bush?s terms and not by his methods.

What an arrogant, self-serving bag of d!ck this guy is. "Oh...sure we would like to see Saddam dead...we just don't want AMERICA to do it. Perhaps if we, the rest of the world, just sit back ass over thumb for just a little while longer...he will just go away. Oui Oui " God D@mnit I hate the French. :|

And why do you hate the French?

Because Dreyfus did it of course.

 

[Electrode]

FrancesBeansRevenge: The problem is that, for the most part, ALL information is propaganda from one side or the other. The middle of the spectrum doesn't bring in the ad money the way that inflamatory propaganda does.

In this case, it seems that the left's propaganda is a little more credible than the right's propaganda, considering that the 'bad guy' is a friend of the right, so the conservative media will spin and lie a little more drasticly (sp) to make him look good.

That last part is purely my opinion.

 

[Corn]

God D@mnit I hate the French.

I'm enjoying a bottle of Le Bordeaux de Malesan Reserve de la Famille Magrez 1999 vintage. The French do serve a purpose.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Originally posted by: Corn

God D@mnit I hate the French.

I'm enjoying a bottle of Le Bordeaux de Malesan Reserve de la Famille Magrez 1999 vintage. The French do serve a purpose.

Bastage. Now I have to break out the Sauternes

 

[PistachioByAzul]

So what exactly about the article isn't true? All that's been said so far in response is name calling.

 

[freakflag]

So what exactly about the article isn't true? All that's been said so far in response is name calling.

Hey! Whoa! Somebody hold up the human shield bus! Looks like we've got one more for 'em!

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: freakflag

Which is odd, because I?m dead against Bush, but I would love to see Saddam?s downfall ? just not on Bush?s terms and not by his methods.

What an arrogant, self-serving bag of d!ck this guy is.

"Oh...sure we would like to see Saddam dead...we just don't want AMERICA to do it. Perhaps if we, the rest of the world, just sit back ass over thumb for just a little while longer...he will just go away. Oui Oui "

God D@mnit I hate the French. :|

I had a big problem with that too But still agreed with much of what he said.

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: Electrode
FrancesBeansRevenge: The problem is that, for the most part, ALL information is propaganda from one side or the other. The middle of the spectrum doesn't bring in the ad money the way that inflamatory propaganda does.

In this case, it seems that the left's propaganda is a little more credible than the right's propaganda, considering that the 'bad guy' is a friend of the right, so the conservative media will spin and lie a little more drasticly (sp) to make him look good.

That last part is purely my opinion.

There is some pretty unbiased news out there. NPR and newshour gives a pretty straight scoop, in depth, and always has equal time if it is controversial. Why do you think Jim Leher is always chosen as the monderator for the presidential debates....He's the only man both parties can agree upon


Unfortuatly most people can't handle the boredom one gets from watching it for that very reason. No controversy or sensationalism. Seems we like it just look how rich Jerry Springer is

And most importantly they don't tell you how to think about an issue but just present it....Poeple have a big problem with that one.

 

[etech]

Originally posted by: FrancesBeansRevenge
Bush sucks. His administration scares me. I hope to God he is out in '04.

That said, most of the links Hagbard posts are just as much propaganda as say links to Foxnews.
There are massive amounts of propaganda being thrown at us from the right AND the left.

I often see those with left-leaning ideals embracing almost anything that echoes thier viewpoint as accurate and credible
while dismissing everything that espouses an opposing viewpoint as propaganda.
I would expect this behaviour from closed minded Right wingers not the 'enlightened' left.

Very sad to see the supposedly 'enlightened' among us biting equally hard on propaganda.
It certainly doesn't help thier position among those of us sitting on the fence.

Hehe, I'm still trying to get over the concept that the left is somehow more enlightened than any other group. Thanks Francis, it was a long day and I needed the laugh.

 

[hagbard]

Originally posted by: FrancesBeansRevenge
Bush sucks. His administration scares me. I hope to God he is out in '04.

That said, most of the links Hagbard posts are just as much propaganda as say links to Foxnews.
There are massive amounts of propaganda being thrown at us from the right AND the left.

I often see those with left-leaning ideals embracing almost anything that echoes thier viewpoint as accurate and credible
while dismissing everything that espouses an opposing viewpoint as propaganda.
I would expect this behaviour from closed minded Right wingers not the 'enlightened' left.

Very sad to see the supposedly 'enlightened' among us biting equally hard on propaganda.
It certainly doesn't help thier position among those of us sitting on the fence.

FBR, how do you tell the propaganda from the "facts" anymore? I certainly do NOT trust anything coming out of Washington, DC. As for my particular political "philosophy" it is never right nor left, I'm a libertarian and have been for over twenty years. That's my bias, and I admit to it. I'm used to being accused of being a right-wing or left wing nut, depending on who's criticizing.

 

[hagbard]

Originally posted by: EngineNr9
So what exactly about the article isn't true? All that's been said so far in response is name calling.

Good question.

 

[hagbard]

Originally posted by: Carbonyl

Originally posted by: Electrode
FrancesBeansRevenge: The problem is that, for the most part, ALL information is propaganda from one side or the other. The middle of the spectrum doesn't bring in the ad money the way that inflamatory propaganda does.

In this case, it seems that the left's propaganda is a little more credible than the right's propaganda, considering that the 'bad guy' is a friend of the right, so the conservative media will spin and lie a little more drasticly (sp) to make him look good.

That last part is purely my opinion.

There is some pretty unbiased news out there. NPR and newshour gives a pretty straight scoop, in depth, and always has equal time if it is controversial. Why do you think Jim Leher is always chosen as the monderator for the presidential debates....He's the only man both parties can agree upon

He's about the best the US has. I used to like Ted Koppel as well, though I haven't watched his show in years.

Unfortuatly most people can't handle the boredom one gets from watching it for that very reason. No controversy or sensationalism. Seems we like it just look how rich Jerry Springer is

And most importantly they don't tell you how to think about an issue but just present it....Poeple have a big problem with that one.

Hey, I provide information I find out there, stuff I generally agree with. Rather than debate, the typical response is to flame. So be it.

 

[FrancesBeansRevenge]

Originally posted by: hagbardHey, I provide information I find out there, stuff I generally agree with. Rather than debate, the typical response is to flame. So be it.

Don't pretend you want debate. You post opinion pieces, short on facts, that can't really be debated. Especially when you come into it already agreeing with it as you admit.
One can only present opinion in response to opinion and when they do you dismiss it as biased or the result of propaganda, etc. Which, of course, just like your articles you post, it indeed IS.

What we have is both sides throwing out opinions and supporting it with opinions of others and then claiming thier opinion is more valid than those in opposition.
This is a cycle that will continue endlessly and seems to serve no purpose other than to entertain YOU. Thats cool with me just try not to pretend you actually care about the issue of Iraq.
You don't care anymore about the Iraqi people than I do (you are far more concerned about being able to legally smoke pot... don't worry I am too) you just need to appear concerned so you will have cover for your 'America sucks' agenda.

Kind of reminds me of the Bush administration... hiding one's true agenda behind the guise of a worthy cause. You should run for office man.

 

[hagbard]

Originally posted by: FrancesBeansRevenge

Originally posted by: hagbardHey, I provide information I find out there, stuff I generally agree with. Rather than debate, the typical response is to flame. So be it.

Don't pretend you want debate. You post opinion pieces, short on facts, that can't really be debated. Especially when you come into it already agreeing with it as you admit.
One can only present opinion in response to opinion and when they do you dismiss it as biased or the result of propaganda, etc. Which, of course, just like your articles you post, it indeed IS.

What we have is both sides throwing out opinions and supporting it with opinions of others and then claiming thier opinion is more valid than those in opposition.
This is a cycle that will continue endlessly and seems to serve no purpose other than to entertain YOU. Thats cool with me just try not to pretend you actually care about the issue of Iraq.

You arrogant bastard. Don't go saying what I do and don't care about.

You don't care anymore about the Iraqi people than I do (you are far more concerned about being able to legally smoke pot... don't worry I am too) you just need to appear concerned so you will have cover for your 'America sucks' agenda.

I do care, certainly MORE than legalizing pot. I've even told the legalizers this and been flamed by them for it. The aggressive US foreign policy is THE issue, but I see that 99.9% of American's could give a rats ass about Iraqis and are quite pleased to have this opportunity to display naked aggression.

Kind of reminds me of the Bush administration... hiding one's true agenda behind the guise of a worthy cause. You should run for office man.

I'm being honest. Too bad you guys are too blind to see that.

 

[FrancesBeansRevenge]

Originally posted by: hagbard
You arrogant bastard. Don't go saying what I do and don't care about.

but I see that 99.9% of American's could give a rats ass about Iraqis and are quite pleased to have this opportunity to display naked aggression.

Oh the irony....

 

[FrancesBeansRevenge]

BTW, hagbard, you are the only person whose motives I am suspicious of.

Just a quick look and a short list of people who express an anti-war opinion in a seemingly honest way without a glaring agenda:
Carbonyl
EngineNr9
Electrode
Harvey
czar
Nemesis77

Thankfully, these people do as much/more good for the credibility of the anti-war position as you do damage to it.

 

[Mandrill]

Originally posted by: hagbard
BTW, my PM has just made it clear that Canada will NOT be contributing to an invasion of Iraq without UN support. So, you're gov't can self-destruct all it wants.

It ever dawn on you that Canada CAN'T contribute to an invasion even if it wanted to? So Canada will sit it out. That just means the US will save the money it would have had to spend to get Canadian troops into the region seeing how your own country lacks the ability to do so. I guess we'll just have to mobilize a Cub Scout troop or two to make up the difference.

 

[Mill]

Originally posted by: FrancesBeansRevenge
BTW, hagbard, you are the only person whose motives I am suspicious of.

Just a quick look and a short list of people who express an anti-war opinion in a seemingly honest way without a glaring agenda:
Carbonyl
EngineNr9
Electrode
Harvey
czar
Nemesis77

Thankfully, these people do as much/more good for the credibility of the anti-war position as you do damage to it.

Yep... I have had disagreements with all of those members and all of them except hagbard have well reasoned out thoughtful opinions. Hagbard just seeks to flame and troll.

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: Mandrill

Originally posted by: hagbard
BTW, my PM has just made it clear that Canada will NOT be contributing to an invasion of Iraq without UN support. So, you're gov't can self-destruct all it wants.

It ever dawn on you that Canada CAN'T contribute to an invasion even if it wanted to? So Canada will sit it out. That just means the US will save the money it would have had to spend to get Canadian troops into the region seeing how your own country lacks the ability to do so. I guess we'll just have to mobilize a Cub Scout troop or two to make up the difference.

Yup, the Canadians that went to afganistan had to hitch a ride with the US.