I long for the day when unprovoked personal attacks were not tolerated, then something changed:disgust:
Originally posted by: shinerburke
Militarily the Vietnam war was won. The politicians, thanks LBJ you idiot, lost that war.Originally posted by: hagbard
Originally posted by: EndGame
Ah, shall we also dig up all the articles which stated how wrong we were and how many casualties we would have in the first Gulf conflict and in Afghanistan? How the first Gulf conflict was going to cause mass upheaval in the mid east and oil prices of $5 a gallon? How us going into Afghanistan was going to cause the 3rd world war?
Come on, this drivel is produced for every conflict. Has always been and will always be! What's funny is, it may never even happen! I'm beginning to believe now, as of results from the past few days, Saddam is going to be gone of his own accord and the UN will be going in as a security force and to assure all WMD's are destroyed as well as to help setup a new government!I'm tellin' ya' look for it boys!
And that you were going to win in Vietnam, right?
I beg to differ, the vietnam war was a disgrace, NO one won that war, unless you consider the deaths of many americans and vietnamese to be some sort of victory. Anyone that has not seen It, I urge to go watch "Hearts and Minds", it is a really good movie on Vietnam and holds up very well to this day. What is really interesting about this movie is that the filmmaker went in to make a positive movie about the war, but changed his mind once he was there and saw what was going on.
Tim
Originally posted by: EndGame
LOL! WTF does that have to do with anything? The fact is, there are ALWAYS detractors/fanatics to every and any military conflict.Originally posted by: hagbard
Originally posted by: EndGame
Ah, shall we also dig up all the articles which stated how wrong we were and how many casualties we would have in the first Gulf conflict and in Afghanistan? How the first Gulf conflict was going to cause mass upheaval in the mid east and oil prices of $5 a gallon? How us going into Afghanistan was going to cause the 3rd world war?
Come on, this drivel is produced for every conflict. Has always been and will always be! What's funny is, it may never even happen! I'm beginning to believe now, as of results from the past few days, Saddam is going to be gone of his own accord and the UN will be going in as a security force and to assure all WMD's are destroyed as well as to help setup a new government!
And that you were going to win in Vietnam, right?
And as long as you brought it up, Vietnam was a case of non-commital pure and simple. Our guys didn't have/receive what they needed when they needed it.
That's certainly not the way it appeared at the time. Americans okay with a permanent occupation of Iraq?
Originally posted by: shinerburke
Militarily the Vietnam war was won. The politicians, thanks LBJ you idiot, lost that war.Originally posted by: hagbard
Originally posted by: EndGame
Ah, shall we also dig up all the articles which stated how wrong we were and how many casualties we would have in the first Gulf conflict and in Afghanistan? How the first Gulf conflict was going to cause mass upheaval in the mid east and oil prices of $5 a gallon? How us going into Afghanistan was going to cause the 3rd world war?
Come on, this drivel is produced for every conflict. Has always been and will always be! What's funny is, it may never even happen! I'm beginning to believe now, as of results from the past few days, Saddam is going to be gone of his own accord and the UN will be going in as a security force and to assure all WMD's are destroyed as well as to help setup a new government!
And that you were going to win in Vietnam, right?
How so?
Originally posted by: Jellomancer
Originally posted by: shinerburke
Militarily the Vietnam war was won. The politicians, thanks LBJ you idiot, lost that war.Originally posted by: hagbard
Originally posted by: EndGame
Ah, shall we also dig up all the articles which stated how wrong we were and how many casualties we would have in the first Gulf conflict and in Afghanistan? How the first Gulf conflict was going to cause mass upheaval in the mid east and oil prices of $5 a gallon? How us going into Afghanistan was going to cause the 3rd world war?
Come on, this drivel is produced for every conflict. Has always been and will always be! What's funny is, it may never even happen! I'm beginning to believe now, as of results from the past few days, Saddam is going to be gone of his own accord and the UN will be going in as a security force and to assure all WMD's are destroyed as well as to help setup a new government!
And that you were going to win in Vietnam, right?
I think that a war fought in another country should have the support of the people you are supposedly fighting for...
You mean like this?
- Survey Finds Iraqis Support US-Led Attack
Topic Iraq
2003-01-12 12:15:17
French conducted study finds backing for US-led attack, while plans to tarnish extremists in friendly nations are revealed
Iraqis would largely welcome a US-led attack leading to the overthrow of Saddam Hussein, according to a survey of public opinion inside Iraq.
Although they are suspicious of the Iraqi opposition abroad, a majority of Iraqis from all social classes say they see a US strike leading to a change of a regime as the only way they can lead normal lives after over twenty years of war, sanctions and economic misery.
"What we want is simply a dose of stability," said a student at Mosul University interviewed by the authoritative Brussels-based International Crisis Group (ICG). "We have suffered enough due to our leaders' mistakes."
The ICG carried out dozens of covert interviewsin the capital, Baghdad, the northern city of Mosul and the religious centre of Najaf on the Euphrates. Few Iraqis opposed an invasion for patriotic reasons or fear that an attack would lead to heavy civilian casualties.
"We do not particularly want a US military strike, but we do want political change and quite honestly, nobody here has the will to fight," said a young architect in Baghdad. "We are even ready to live under international tutelage. We have nothing to lose, and it cannot be any worse than our current condition."
The survey is highly significant because in the prolonged debate over regime change the views of people inside Iraq, though critically important, have been considered unknowable on the grounds that they are too frightened to express an opinion.
The ICG report, published this month and based on interviews carried out in October and November, shows that the repressive apparatus of the government is losing its grip.
Few Iraqis were prepared to take up arms and memories of the failed uprisings of 1991 remain vivid. Arab nationalism seems more potent within the rest of the Arab world than in Iraq. A student in Baghdad commented: "Nobody believes in this country any more. Everyone wants to either leave it, forget it, or change identity and begin a new life."
The overthrow of President Saddam will not be followed by a blood-bath, according to most Iraqis interviewed.
"Contrary to what outsiders think, Iraq will not become another Lebanon," said a retired teacher in Saddam City, a vast, Shiah Muslim district in Baghdad. "We are perfectly aware of who tortured and who murdered, and when the moment comes, we will know how to make distinctions and punish those directly responsible."
Retribution against Iraqis who colluded with President Saddam's regime would also be limited by the fact so many people ? businessmen, intellectuals, journalists ? had no choice but to cooperate with the government.
There is deep resentment among poorer Iraqis, most of the population, against those who have made money out of sanctions and war.
But there is little fear of sectarian warfare between the Shiah Muslim majority, traditionally excluded from power, and the Sunni Muslims who have dominated the country's politics. Deeply divided though Iraq is between Shiah, Sunni and Kurd, it has never had sectarian pogroms as in Lebanon or Northern Ireland.
The survey will make sober reading for the Iraqi opposition, which held a unity meeting London at the weekend.
A draft final statement "rejected either foreign occupation or military rule either directly or indirectly".
A civil servant in Baghdad said of the opposition leaders: "The exiled Iraqis are the exact replica of those who currently govern us ... with the sole difference that the latter are already satiated since they have been robbing for the past 30 years. Those who accompany the American troops will be most welcome."
shiner
Lifer
- Jul 18, 2000
- 17,112
- 1
- 0
Originally posted by: Gaard
Originally posted by: shinerburke
Militarily the Vietnam war was won. The politicians, thanks LBJ you idiot, lost that war.Originally posted by: hagbard
Originally posted by: EndGame
Ah, shall we also dig up all the articles which stated how wrong we were and how many casualties we would have in the first Gulf conflict and in Afghanistan? How the first Gulf conflict was going to cause mass upheaval in the mid east and oil prices of $5 a gallon? How us going into Afghanistan was going to cause the 3rd world war?
Come on, this drivel is produced for every conflict. Has always been and will always be! What's funny is, it may never even happen! I'm beginning to believe now, as of results from the past few days, Saddam is going to be gone of his own accord and the UN will be going in as a security force and to assure all WMD's are destroyed as well as to help setup a new government!
And that you were going to win in Vietnam, right?
How so?
How so? The U.S. military was very successful in their operations in Vietnam. The problem was not lack of victory by the armed forces, the problem was that after a victory the politicians would call a cease fire so they could negotiate. In that time of cease fire the Communist forces would rebuild everything that had been destroyed and creep back into areas they had been kicked out of. Time and time again the U.S. would take an area, call a cease fire, give the area back, then a week later have to fight over the same ground.
I agree. His arguments aren't coherent. He nervously jumps from one idea to the next, never taking the time to fully develop any one line of thought. If he spent time developing one or two key points in any depth, I might have been persuaded to some extent.
Verdict: CRAP
Verdict: CRAP
And the same can, and is said of people like yourself whom are clearly being persuaded by propaganda and fanatics!
All balances out I suppose.
Originally posted by: EndGame
And the same can, and is said of people like yourself whom are clearly being persuaded by propaganda and fanatics!
All balances out I suppose.
Yup, it does, and both sides get further apart and come into conflict more and more, which results in some bad vibes.
I can see what the guy is saying though, even though it may be a little extreme.
Corn
Diamond Member
- Nov 12, 1999
- 6,390
- 29
- 91
Utter nonsense. A bizarre collection of half-truths with a dash of conspiracy for good measure, oh yeah, can't forget about greed, yeah, he's got that covered too.
Just by the simple use of the term "Bushies" this so-called literary wiz evidences his complete lack of objectivity: Woodie, when you say "Well, there's no bias in that article." I can only wonder how you are able to negotiate the keyboard when you are obviously functionally illiterate. Perhaps you were being sarcastic, in which case I would retract that last sentence.
Zebo
Elite Member
- Jul 29, 2001
- 39,398
- 19
- 81
Bias, yes
Filled with inferances for those whom agree or conspriacies for those who don't, yes
Corn it's an oped piece. Obviously this guys opinon with some humour and spite mixed in for good measure. No different than RUSH...It's kinda lowbrow but effective if your on that side of the isle or even if your not...As I said look at the reaction.
Filled with inferances for those whom agree or conspriacies for those who don't, yes
Corn it's an oped piece. Obviously this guys opinon with some humour and spite mixed in for good measure. No different than RUSH...It's kinda lowbrow but effective if your on that side of the isle or even if your not...As I said look at the reaction.
Corn
Diamond Member
- Nov 12, 1999
- 6,390
- 29
- 91
Oh, I wouldn't disagree with that at all, just be careful......relating that opinion in the presence of our USA hating friends Anita and Hagbard (with their glowing praise for Le Carre's objectivity and keen perception), you might also be branded an ugly American like the rest of us......
Hagbard,
Yep, that article is really deep. Now where did I put my hip waders.
There is no such thing as an oil pipeline through Afghanistan. The only pipeline proposed has been for a NATURAL GAS pipeline. Your author can't even get the basic facts correct. Then all he does is make some assumptions based on those falsehoods.
Yep, that article is really deep. Now where did I put my hip waders.
There is no such thing as an oil pipeline through Afghanistan. The only pipeline proposed has been for a NATURAL GAS pipeline. Your author can't even get the basic facts correct. Then all he does is make some assumptions based on those falsehoods.
BTW, my PM has just made it clear that Canada will NOT be contributing to an invasion of Iraq without UN support. So, you're gov't can self-destruct all it wants.
The reactions I've seen in this thread somehow remind me of little kids running away, covering their ears and screaming "No! No! No! No! No! No!" after being confronted with information that they don't like, for example:
- Parent is dead
- Santa doesn't exist
- Favorite TV show is canceled
Or, in this case:
- Bush is not the infallable super-human leader you believe he is
- Parent is dead
- Santa doesn't exist
- Favorite TV show is canceled
Or, in this case:
- Bush is not the infallable super-human leader you believe he is
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