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John Kerry's Involuntary Separation From Service?

The New York Sun?s Thomas Lipscomb has an article about the Mystery Surrounding Kerry?s Navy Discharge:




An official Navy document on Senator Kerry?s campaign Web site listed as Mr. Kerry?s ?Honorable Discharge from the Reserves? opens a door on a wellkept secret about his military service.

The document is a form cover letter in the name of the Carter administration?s secretary of the Navy,W. Graham Claytor. It describes Mr. Kerry?s discharge as being subsequent to the review of ?a board of officers.? This in itself is unusual. There is nothing about an ordinary honorable discharge action in the Navy that requires a review by a board of officers.

According to the secretary of the Navy?s document, the ?authority of reference? this board was using in considering Mr. Kerry?s record was ?Title 10, U.S. Code Section 1162 and 1163.?This section refers to the grounds for involuntary separation from the service. What was being reviewed, then, was Mr.Kerry?s involuntary separation from the service. And it couldn?t have been an honorable discharge, or there would have been no point in any review at all.The review was likely held to improve Mr. Kerry?s status of discharge from a less than honorable discharge to an honorable discharge.

A Kerry campaign spokesman, David Wade, was asked whether Mr. Kerry had ever been a victim of an attempt to deny him an honorable discharge. There has been no response to that inquiry.

The document is dated February 16, 1978. But Mr. Kerry?s military commitment began with his six-year enlistment contract with the Navy on February 18, 1966. His commitment should have terminated in 1972. It is highly unlikely that either the man who at that time was a Vietnam Veterans Against the War leader, John Kerry, requested or the Navy accepted an additional six year reserve commitment. And the Claytor document indicates proceedings to reverse a less than honorable discharge that took place sometime prior to February 1978.

Senator Kerry, when will you sign your Form 180 and allow full disclosure of your records?
 
This is a repost. Try a different smear.


--------------------
Bush Apologists of America (BAA): pulling the wool over America's eyes since 1980
 
Originally posted by: Ldir
This is a repost. Try a different smear.


--------------------
Bush Apologists of America (BAA): pulling the wool over America's eyes since 1980

How do you know this is a "smear?" Were you on this 'review board,' or have you seen his military records? Given that he put his service front and center, he should at least open up the records. Oh, wait, judging from the mock-signature you are typing in each time [or cutting and pasting], I guess you 'hate Bush', so naturally this must be a "smear."
 
Originally posted by: xxxxxJohnGaltxxxxx
Originally posted by: Ldir
This is a repost. Try a different smear.


--------------------
Bush Apologists of America (BAA): pulling the wool over America's eyes since 1980

How do you know this is a "smear?" Were you on this 'review board,' or have you seen his military records? Given that he put his service front and center, he should at least open up the records. Oh, wait, judging from the mock-signature you are typing in each time [or cutting and pasting], I guess you 'hate Bush', so naturally this must be a "smear."

If the shoe was on the other foot, the Lib elitists would be up in arms demanding full disclosure. How convenient.

 
Originally posted by: Commish
Originally posted by: xxxxxJohnGaltxxxxx
Originally posted by: Ldir
This is a repost. Try a different smear.


--------------------
Bush Apologists of America (BAA): pulling the wool over America's eyes since 1980

How do you know this is a "smear?" Were you on this 'review board,' or have you seen his military records? Given that he put his service front and center, he should at least open up the records. Oh, wait, judging from the mock-signature you are typing in each time [or cutting and pasting], I guess you 'hate Bush', so naturally this must be a "smear."

If the shoe was on the other foot, the Lib elitists would be up in arms demanding full disclosure. How convenient.



Actuallyt the libs have already demanded full disclosure and they received. BUsh signed a form 180 releasing all military documents. When that was not enough, they started making documents up!
 
Originally posted by: xxxxxJohnGaltxxxxx
Originally posted by: Commish

If the shoe was on the other foot, the Lib elitists would be up in arms demanding full disclosure. How convenient.

Right...remember the dental records? What a bunch of hypocrites.

I talked with a coworker who was in the military for 20 years and at the time of vietnam and later. He said that Kerry shouldn't have needed an intervention from the President if he was to get an honorable discharge in 1972. Make no bones about this...this cover letter DOES suggest some irregularity.

Plus, from what he told me, is if your discharge is less than honorable, your medals are revoked. Kerrys were reinstated shortly after he became a Senator.

If Kerry wanted to clear this up, all he has to do is sign the form.
 
settle down wacko's - if there was anything to this, don't you think the Rep's would be all over this? I'm guessing they've checked it out and decided it's not worth pursuing...

Comparing this to Bush's travesty that he calls his National Guard service is apples and oranges - 2 very different things.
 
Originally posted by: NeoV
settle down wacko's - if there was anything to this, don't you think the Rep's would be all over this? I'm guessing they've checked it out and decided it's not worth pursuing...

Comparing this to Bush's travesty that he calls his National Guard service is apples and oranges - 2 very different things.

It would be hard to prove while the records are sealed....or should they have a break-in at the pentagon?
 
It is a repost...

http://forums.anandtech.com/me...y=y&keyword1=Kerry

...however, it was dismissed with a wave of the hand by the Kerry supporters as insignificant or already addressed. Sorry, it's not insignificant and has not already been addressed. If our potential commander in chief was less then honorably discharged the US public deserves to know that information. If it's untrue or an attempt at partisan slander, all Kerry need do is sign his name on a form and properly release his records. If not one can only assume he has something to hide.
 
Jewish World Review

That's the original source for Lipscombs article.

Once you look inside, what is evident is that Nixon and Colson were
points of origin for the improprieties of the day - and time in question

<CLIPS>

NBC's release this March of some of the Nixon White House tapes about Mr. Kerry show a great deal of interest in Mr. Kerry by Nixon and his executive staff, including, perhaps most importantly, Nixon's special counsel, Charles Colson. In a meeting the day after Mr. Kerry's Senate testimony, April 23, 1971, Mr. Colson attacks Mr. Kerry as a "complete opportunist...We'll keep hitting him, Mr. President."

Mr. Colson was still on the case two months later, according to a memo he wrote on June 15,1971, that was brought to the surface by the Houston Chronicle. "Let's destroy this young demagogue before he becomes another Ralph Nader." Nixon had been a naval officer in World War II. Mr. Colson was a former Marine captain. Mr. Colson had been prodded to find "dirt" on Mr. Kerry, but reported that he couldn't find any.

The Nixon administration ran FBI surveillance on Mr. Kerry from September 1970 until August 1972. Finding grounds for an other than honorable discharge, however, for a leader of the Vietnam Veterans Against the War, given his numerous activities while still a reserve officer of the Navy, was easier than finding "dirt."

Mr. Colson refused to answer any questions about his activities regarding Mr. Kerry during his time in the Nixon White House. The secretary of the Navy at the time during the Nixon presidency is the current chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee, Senator Warner. A spokesman for the senator, John Ullyot, said, "Senator Warner has no recollection that would either confirm or challenge any representation that Senator Kerry received a less than honorable discharge."

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

O.K. xxJohnxx, now what is the next bidding that Ashcroft has for you to do ?
 
Originally posted by: CaptnKirk
Jewish World Review

That's the original source for Lipscombs article.

Once you look inside, what is evident is that Nixon and Colson were
points of origin for the improprieties of the day - and time in question

<CLIPS>

NBC's release this March of some of the Nixon White House tapes about Mr. Kerry show a great deal of interest in Mr. Kerry by Nixon and his executive staff, including, perhaps most importantly, Nixon's special counsel, Charles Colson. In a meeting the day after Mr. Kerry's Senate testimony, April 23, 1971, Mr. Colson attacks Mr. Kerry as a "complete opportunist...We'll keep hitting him, Mr. President."

Mr. Colson was still on the case two months later, according to a memo he wrote on June 15,1971, that was brought to the surface by the Houston Chronicle. "Let's destroy this young demagogue before he becomes another Ralph Nader." Nixon had been a naval officer in World War II. Mr. Colson was a former Marine captain. Mr. Colson had been prodded to find "dirt" on Mr. Kerry, but reported that he couldn't find any.

The Nixon administration ran FBI surveillance on Mr. Kerry from September 1970 until August 1972. Finding grounds for an other than honorable discharge, however, for a leader of the Vietnam Veterans Against the War, given his numerous activities while still a reserve officer of the Navy, was easier than finding "dirt."

Mr. Colson refused to answer any questions about his activities regarding Mr. Kerry during his time in the Nixon White House. The secretary of the Navy at the time during the Nixon presidency is the current chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee, Senator Warner. A spokesman for the senator, John Ullyot, said, "Senator Warner has no recollection that would either confirm or challenge any representation that Senator Kerry received a less than honorable discharge."

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

O.K. xxJohnxx, now what is the next bidding that Ashcroft has for you to do ?


So if Kerry was persecuted by Nixon, and the record would show that, wouldn't that be a badge of honor for him, unless of course the investigation findings were true.
 
Originally posted by: Pliablemoose
DonVito could actually shed some light on this...
And he did in the earlier thread. Informed opinion is no match for partisan attacks, however. The Bushies have spent the last 18 months bringing up the same discredited crap over and over and over and over, ad nauseum. It's their time-honored tactic of repeating lies incessantly until they begin to sound true. (e.g., see: media, "liberal")


PS. Hey Galt, did you ever accept that Iraqis are human beings too?
 
Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Originally posted by: Pliablemoose
DonVito could actually shed some light on this...
And he did in the earlier thread. Informed opinion is no match for partisan attacks, however. The Bushies have spent the last 18 months bringing up the same discredited crap over and over and over and over, ad nauseum. It's their time-honored tactic of repeating lies incessantly until they begin to sound true. (e.g., see: media, "liberal")

Well here is a truth even the most dedicated RBH can't deny. kerry could sign the form, he has chosen NOT to. Signing the form would put an end to much of the questioning about his Service.

Sign the form john.

CsG
 
Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Originally posted by: Pliablemoose
DonVito could actually shed some light on this...
And he did in the earlier thread.

Ok, found the posts, I'd still like to see all the records, though, and honestly, given the political climate @ the time, if the records show Nixon type tactics, he should display them (records) with honor...

Beginning to suspect the October Surprise is "The Death of a Thousand Cuts"



 
PBS Frontline's The Choice 2004 exposed John O'Neill as a hack for Nixon, Haldeman, and Colson. This is right in line with that smear campaign.

Another non-issue.

People are SICK AND TIRED of the Vietnam era crap.

If Kerry is going to sign the SF-180, then Bush needs to come clean with his cocaine abuse.
 
Originally posted by: conjur
PBS Frontline's The Choice 2004 exposed John O'Neill as a hack for Nixon, Haldeman, and Colson. This is right in line with that smear campaign.

Another non-issue.

People are SICK AND TIRED of the Vietnam era crap.

If Kerry is going to sign the SF-180, then Bush needs to come clean with his cocaine abuse.

First off, this isn't about john o'neill - it's about john f'n kerry and it is an issue - he made it one.

And no, you aren't going to move the goal posts. Bush signed it, kerry should sign it.

CsG
 
Originally posted by: Pliablemoose
Originally posted by: conjur

If Kerry is going to sign the SF-180, then Bush needs to come clean with his cocaine abuse.

:cookie:

Actually we need apples &amp; oranges icons for this one

:laugh:

No, we don't. If Kerry has to "come clean" with his past from 30+ years ago, so does Bush (and while we're at it...let's get the truth from Bush re:his gaps in his National Guard service)
 
Originally posted by: Pliablemoose
Originally posted by: conjur

If Kerry is going to sign the SF-180, then Bush needs to come clean with his cocaine abuse.

:cookie:

Actually we need apples &amp; oranges icons for this one

:laugh:

Either that or a "sliding scale" icon. 😀

CsG
 
Swiftboat liar exposed:

http://news.globalfreepress.co...eSwiftBoatVetLiars.wmv



More on the swiftboat liars:

Larry Thurlow, one of the lying Swiftboat Veterans:
http://www.nationalreview.com/...k/york200407301059.asp
Thurlow says that Kerry's version of the events of March 13, 1969, is simply wrong. "His story is a total fabrication," Thurlow says. One of the Swift Boats did hit a mine that day, Thurlow says, but much of the rest of Kerry's story is inaccurate. "This thing about being under intense enemy fire is a falsehood...There was no fire off either bank [of the river]. This thing about getting Jim out of the river under a hail of bullets with these serious injuries is totally fabricated."



The lie exposed:
http://www.thehistorynet.com/a...yinvietnam/index3.html

Larry Thurlow received a bronze star for a fire fight he now says did not occur!



AND

George Elliott lying:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5694561/
HURLEY: This is from George Elliott, one of John Kerry?s commanders in Vietnam. This is the recommendation for the award of the Bronze Star. And he talks about a little bit in this.

Then he says: ?Shortly after starting their exit from this river, a mine detonated under one of the boats, PCF-3, lifting it two feet above the water and wounded everyone on board. Almost simultaneously, another mine detonated, close aboard PCF-94, knocking First Lieutenant Rassmann into the water and wounding Lieutenant J.G. Kerry in the right arm.? It goes on that PCF-4 provided cover fire, that they received sniper fire from the riverbanks. ?Lieutenant J.G. Kerry, from his exposed position on the bow of the boat, managed to pull Lieutenant Rassmann aboard despite the painful wound in his right arm.

?Meanwhile, PCF-94 gunners provided accurate suppressing fire.? It concludes by saying: ?Lieutenant J.G. Kerry proved himself to be calm, professional and highly courageous in the face of enemy fire.? That is signed by George Elliott, one of these same guys now who is saying, oh, but I remember it differently and I want to change my mind.


http://www.factcheck.org/article.aspx?docID=231
What Elliott said in the ad is that Kerry "has not been honest about what happened in Viet Nam." In his original affidavit Elliott said Kerry had not been "forthright" in Vietnam. The only example he offered of Kerry not being "honest" or "forthright" was this: "For example, in connection with his Silver Star, I was never informed that he had simply shot a wounded, fleeing Viet Cong in the back.

In the Globe story, Elliott is quoted as saying it was a "terrible mistake" to sign that statement:

George Elliott (Globe account): It was a terrible mistake probably for me to sign the affidavit with those words. I'm the one in trouble here. . . . I knew it was wrong . . . In a hurry I signed it and faxed it back. That was a mistake.


http://www.capitolhillblue.com...ish/article_4998.shtml
Another prominent figure in the anti-Kerry book as well as the ad denouncing Kerry, retired Lt. Commander George Elliott, recanted his statement last week in interviews with at least two news sources and then recounted his recant. Elliott also supported Kerry in his 1996 campaign and told a Boston audience that he felt the Senator "deserved the medals he won in Vietnam."

O?Neill further destroyed his credibility by appearing on CNN after assuring the network he had not spoke out publicly about Kerry this year. CNN later had to retract their claim of an ?exclusive? interview after they learned O?Neill appeared on C-Span to discuss Kerry in March.


Elliott Praises Kerry in 1969 Report
Elliott had a much different opinion of Kerry at the time than in the ad. In a fitness report on Kerry, dated Dec. 18, 1969, he stated that "in a combat environment often requiring independent, decisive action LTJG Kerry was unsurpassed...LTJG Kerry emerges as the acknowledged leader in his peer group."


Elliott also said he voted for Gore. I find that very hard to believe considering he's donated to the GOP. Elliott is a pathological liar. No ifs, ands, or buts about it.


AND

Hibbard has not revealed that he was Kerry's CO for only two weeks and never wrote a performance review for Kerry.


AND

Hoffman has been called a Kurtz-like psychopath.

Capt. Roy Hoffmann: "I told them you not only have authority," Hoffmann now says, "I damned well expect action. If there were men there and they didn?t kill them or capture them, you?d hear from me."


Also, Hoffman is a liar:
http://www.capitolhillblue.com...ish/article_4998.shtml
?They seek retribution by fabricating stories to destroy Kerry,? Brinkley says. ?Hoffman, in particular lacks credibility.?

On May 6, Milwaukee Journal Sentinel reporter Steve Schultze, interviewed Hoffman and wrote ?Hoffmann acknowledged he had no first-hand knowledge to discredit Kerry's claims to valor and said that although Kerry was under his command, he really didn't know Kerry much personally.?

On August 5, however, Hoffman told Sean Hannity on his ABC radio show that "I knew him (Kerry) well, because I operated very closely with him and, uh, many of the operations, uh, most of the operations were-were conducted with multiple boats."



AND

Merrie Spaeth is the Communications Director for the Swiftboat Veterans group and is a staunch GOP supporter.


AND

Their website is funded by a Missouri Republican with close ties to John Ashcroft.


AND

http://www.newsmax.com/archive.../2004/5/4/132751.shtml
?It is our collective judgment that, upon your return from Vietnam, you grossly and knowingly distorted the conduct of the American soldiers, Marines, sailors and airmen of that war (including a betrayal of many of us, without regard for the danger your actions caused us.) Further, we believe that you have withheld and/or distorted material facts as to your own conduct in this war.?

But it is with regard to the latter sentence of the charge that O?Neill and others get vague.

When asked by NewsMax if they had in mind any potential smoking gun of distortion that might be revealed by an unfettered examination of Kerry?s military records, there was no answer forthcoming.


AND

Who is Steve Gardner?
Swift Boat Vet "eyewitness" was not present for events leading to Kerry's medals or Purple Hearts
http://mediamatters.org/items/200408240001
Gardner admitted that "he was not on the boat with Kerry during the incidents for which Kerry got his medals," reported The Columbus Dispatch on August 6. And as a guest on Michael Savage's radio show, Savage Nation, on August 2, Gardner said that of Kerry's three Purple Hearts, he could only attest to the first; Gardner later admitted to Savage that he was "not on the boat with him [Kerry]" when that injury occurred...

...in at least two interviews, Gardner has falsely claimed that he was present for the incidents leading to Kerry's receipt of awards...

...In an apparent attempt to substantiate his status as an eyewitness to key Kerry events, Gardner claimed on Scarborough Country, "[T]hat boat never left the dock that I wasn't aboard it with John Kerry, never. I was with that boat everywhere we went." Gardner went on to make assertions regarding the events that occurred on March 13, 1969, involving Kerry's rescue of Jim Rassmann, for which Kerry received the Bronze Star. Gardner claimed to know that Kerry fled the scene on the river that day while the other three boats stayed and that Kerry then "turned around and came all the way back to pick up Mr. Rassmann that he had thrown off his boat when he took off, when he fled down the canal." But later in the show, Gardner admitted to not being present that day. When Scarborough attempted to revisit the "March 13, 1969 incident," Gardner said, "I'm not going to deal with that. Because I wasn't there."...

...On the August 2 broadcast of Savage Nation, Gardner himself claimed that all of the wounds for which Kerry received Purple Hearts "were superficial wounds, and I mean very superficial, scratches. The very first one is the only one that I can actually attest to because I was there when that wound happened." But Gardner was not there when Kerry sustained that wound; as noted above, Gardner went on to admit: "I was not on the boat with him but I -- in the next three days following that, I was with him on the boat going to take our new position up down there on the seaward operations."


And John O'Neill in his lie:

Swift Boat Writer Lied on Cambodia Claim
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmp..._boats_1&amp;printer=1
 
Originally posted by: Commish
Originally posted by: xxxxxJohnGaltxxxxx
Originally posted by: Ldir
This is a repost. Try a different smear.


--------------------
Bush Apologists of America (BAA): pulling the wool over America's eyes since 1980

How do you know this is a "smear?" Were you on this 'review board,' or have you seen his military records? Given that he put his service front and center, he should at least open up the records. Oh, wait, judging from the mock-signature you are typing in each time [or cutting and pasting], I guess you 'hate Bush', so naturally this must be a "smear."

If the shoe was on the other foot, the Lib elitists would be up in arms demanding full disclosure. How convenient.

we did.
and sure, kerry should sign it.


 
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